LSAT correlates to success in law school Forum

[hotdoglaw]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

[SAE]

[09042014]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict. But success over their career doesn't seem to be harmed at all because firms will hire for diversity and when in the firm they don't under perform.

[eudaimondaimon]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict.

Source?

[fl0w]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict. But success over their career doesn't seem to be harmed at all because firms will hire for diversity and when in the firm they don't under perform.

Key is that LSAT is a "good predictor" of how well one does in law school, not of one's career success as an attorney.
Also.. i don't see how you actually care about the answer to your question. If you are not URM, then why would you care if a section of your class is at a disadvantage. it makes things advantageous for you. And if, in fact, they are not disadvantaged, then I guess you have to work hard. Which is what you should have been planning to do anyway.

Opinion time: as a URM, I would argue that URMs are placed into an environment where they may have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged the day they come out of the womb.

[JordynAsh]

Really? ANOTHER of these threads?

[vanwinkle]

Really? ANOTHER of these threads?

[fl0w]

by posting in it, you've made it show up in your "view your posts" link as well.. by the way, is there a way to effectively "untag" a thread you've posted in? Been wondering that for a while.

[vyelps]

yeah these are stupid. As a current law student, I can tell oyu no one gives a crap about your LSAT score in law school. Here's the secret of doing well- 1. study you butt off, non-stop; 2. pay attention in class; 3. be very organized with your time and study resources; 4. sleep/exercise/eat healthy to avoid illness.

These threads arguing about the value of the LSAT or URMs or whatever else are a waste of time. Seriously- you arent going to change the system. Learn how to work within it.

[UofO]

yeah these are stupid. As a current law student, I can tell oyu no one gives a crap about your LSAT score in law school. Here's the secret of doing well- 1. study you butt off, non-stop; 2. pay attention in class; 3. be very organized with your time and study resources; 4. sleep/exercise/eat healthy to avoid illness.

These threads arguing about the value of the LSAT or URMs or whatever else are a waste of time. Seriously- you arent going to change the system. Learn how to work within it.

+ fucking 1.

[slider]

Very good study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

[09042014]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict.

Source?

--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

[scionb4]

+ fucking 1

Not just a +1, a plus fucking 1, there is a difference.

[SAE]

Very good study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

fwiw, looks like the guy says it outright at 12:30: the LSAC has an even better predictive validity for AA's than for whites.

[eudaimondaimon]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict.

Source?

--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

Gratze. That is shocking.

Very good study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

fwiw, looks like the guy says it outright at 12:30: the LSAC has an even better predictive validity for AA's than for whites.

I had watched the video, but when he said that I didn't know whether to to take it as meaning the LSAT had a better predictive validity for AA students with respect to other AA students, or rather with respect to the entire class. It's an important distinction that I wish was more clearly communicated.

[MURPH]

--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

Desert Fox,
On page 65 it shows that blacks are in the bottom decile less frequently at other schools (pg 61 is elite schools only). I suppose that the 14% in the bottom decile at historically minority colleges is because those colleges still attract mostly minorities.
I was pretty shocked at his conclusion "Perhaps most remarkably, a strong case can be made that in the legal education system as a whole, racial preferences end up producing fewer black lawyers each year than would be produced by a race-blind system.8 Affirmative action as currently practiced by the nation’s law schools does not, therefore, pass even the easiest test one can set. In systemic, objective terms, it hurts the group it is most designed to help."

I had heard that argument before but I never saw any data to back it up.

[Geesh106]

The LSAT correlates to how successful of a law school you get into.

[vanwinkle]

Very good study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

fwiw, looks like the guy says it outright at 12:30: the LSAC has an even better predictive validity for AA's than for whites.

The thing is, the LSAT correlates more directly to bar passage rate than grades, because grades are also dependent on the level of competition (including the LSAT scores of your peers). So while AAs do poorly in classes at these schools, their LSAT scores are still sufficiently high enough to predict that they will still pass the bar and thus be able to be successful lawyers.

I've seen this discussed before. AAs at top law schools would often end up with worse grades than whites, but have nearly identical bar passage rates and little discernable difference in real-world capability post-graduation. The LSAT has a strong correlation to bar passage rate, and above a certain threshold of ability it's possible for almost anyone to pass the bar given a solid legal education. As a result these students end up still being highly capable lawyers even though they do poorly in their classes (which is how people who end up in the bottom half of Harvard are often seen; they're still Harvard grads, after all).

[TigerBeer]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

wow you fail at being subtle

[MTal]

Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[ValiantVic]

From what I heard from the Dean at NU the LSAT has a good correlation with one's success in the first semester of law school, that's it. It can't even be projected to one's law school career and of course obviously wouldn't have any bearing on one's career as an attorney.

[T14Hopeful09]

If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

URMs as a group do as well as their LSAT would predict. But success over their career doesn't seem to be harmed at all because firms will hire for diversity and when in the firm they don't under perform.

Key is that LSAT is a "good predictor" of how well one does in law school, not of one's career success as an attorney.
Also.. i don't see how you actually care about the answer to your question. If you are not URM, then why would you care if a section of your class is at a disadvantage. it makes things advantageous for you. And if, in fact, they are not disadvantaged, then I guess you have to work hard. Which is what you should have been planning to do anyway.

Opinion time: as a URM, I would argue that URMs are placed into an environment where they may have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged the day they come out of the womb.

Church!

[Unitas]

From what I heard from the Dean at NU the LSAT has a good correlation with one's success in the first semester of law school, that's it. It can't even be projected to one's law school career and of course obviously wouldn't have any bearing on one's career as an attorney.

That isn't the entire part of it. The LSAT has the best correlation of any available test with one's success in the first semester of law school. The best correlation of success as a law student over the three years is success in the first semester of law school.

[phoenix323]

From what I heard from the Dean at NU the LSAT has a good correlation with one's success in the first semester of law school, that's it. It can't even be projected to one's law school career and of course obviously wouldn't have any bearing on one's career as an attorney.

That isn't the entire part of it. The LSAT has the best correlation of any available test with one's success in the first semester of law school. The best correlation of success as a law student over the three years is success in the first semester of law school.

Just curious, what other tests are there?

[UofO]

+ fucking 1

Not just a +1, a plus fucking 1, there is a difference.

huge difference! lol