Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

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lawschoolbomber
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Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby lawschoolbomber » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:07 pm

Hi everyone. I would really appreciate some insight and comments. As of now I have been accepted into both American and Rutgers at Newark and I cant seem to decide where to go. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. American is ranked 44th where as Rutgers is 85th. However, Rutgers is also $10,000 cheaper and I already have an apartment in NY where I could live, but money is not really a problem in my case. However, the average starting salary for graduates in Rutgers is about $25,000 higher than that of American. So I don't know if i should go to the more prestigious school or to attend a school that looks to have better job prospects.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:39 pm

Listen, if you go to American you will not have a job. Going to American at sticker is a very, very bad idea. Ppl graduating at median at American are done. You are behind 7 other schools.

... I feel if I have to say this 27 times a day.


btw, do you have any other options? (retake?)

lawschoolbomber
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby lawschoolbomber » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:17 pm

What is it that you've heard about the job market coming out of American? I mean Rutgers at Newark faces fierce competition in NYC and NJ as well.

lawschoolbomber
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby lawschoolbomber » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:18 pm

I mean I am still waiting on a couple of other applications to come through but im not really interested in any of the ones that I applied to apart from George Mason and Fordham which are reach schools for me.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:26 pm

Overall the legal market is over-saturated, there are too many lawyer. There is talk of people in the t-14 have some trouble finding jobs.

American is limited to DC in terms of jobs. However. Consider that Georgetown, GWU, GMU are in the the city AND considered by employers to be better. W&L, W&M and UVA all also feed very heavily into DC. All are considered better than American.

If you graduate at the top of your class at American then you have a chance at making some $, hell even good biglaw $ if you are in like the top 10% perhaps. But if you are median at a school that is ranked 7th out of schools that feed one city what kind of job prospects do you think you will have? Let me say this: they won't be good.

And never count on being in the top of your class. Everyone else is as well.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:28 pm

lawschoolbomber wrote:I mean I am still waiting on a couple of other applications to come through but im not really interested in any of the ones that I applied to apart from George Mason and Fordham which are reach schools for me.


did you apply PT or FT? If you are a reach FT you might consider switching your app to PT along w/ a short addendum about why you now want to do PT. It is usually easier to get into the PT programs. If you do well 1st year you could switch over to FT program. GMU you can switch anytime.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby sk08 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:02 pm

gwuorbust wrote:Overall the legal market is over-saturated, there are too many lawyer. There is talk of people in the t-14 have some trouble finding jobs.

American is limited to DC in terms of jobs. However. Consider that Georgetown, GWU, GMU are in the the city AND considered by employers to be better. W&L, W&M and UVA all also feed very heavily into DC. All are considered better than American.

If you graduate at the top of your class at American then you have a chance at making some $, hell even good biglaw $ if you are in like the top 10% perhaps. But if you are median at a school that is ranked 7th out of schools that feed one city what kind of job prospects do you think you will have? Let me say this: they won't be good.

And never count on being in the top of your class. Everyone else is as well.



I understand GMU is ahead of American in the rankings, but I think you have to take into consideration that many WCL students have different professional goals (non-profit, public interest, gov't jobs in DC). There are probably less students even pursuing big law, so placement in big law may not be an appropriate parameter. Even saying that, look at websites of big DC law firms, American has more attorneys than GMU (Yes, I know GMU is relatively new and bigger, but I think when you eliminate the WCL students, the class sizes pursing big law would be comparable). For example, I looked at King&Spaulding, WilmerHale, and White&Case. Full disclose: I may end up at American.

Certainly your advice has merit - GMU is ranked higher, in the same location, and is much cheaper that WCL. But to say employers consider GMU to be better than American, I think, is unsupported. Just thought I'd throw in a little different perspective.

To the original poster, I think you have to consider where you want to be afterwards and go to school in that region.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:23 pm

sk08 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:Overall the legal market is over-saturated, there are too many lawyer. There is talk of people in the t-14 have some trouble finding jobs.

American is limited to DC in terms of jobs. However. Consider that Georgetown, GWU, GMU are in the the city AND considered by employers to be better. W&L, W&M and UVA all also feed very heavily into DC. All are considered better than American.

If you graduate at the top of your class at American then you have a chance at making some $, hell even good biglaw $ if you are in like the top 10% perhaps. But if you are median at a school that is ranked 7th out of schools that feed one city what kind of job prospects do you think you will have? Let me say this: they won't be good.

And never count on being in the top of your class. Everyone else is as well.



I understand GMU is ahead of American in the rankings, but I think you have to take into consideration that many WCL students have different professional goals (non-profit, public interest, gov't jobs in DC). There are probably less students even pursuing big law, so placement in big law may not be an appropriate parameter. Even saying that, look at websites of big DC law firms, American has more attorneys than GMU (Yes, I know GMU is relatively new and bigger, but I think when you eliminate the WCL students, the class sizes pursing big law would be comparable). For example, I looked at King&Spaulding, WilmerHale, and White&Case. Full disclose: I may end up at American.

Certainly your advice has merit - GMU is ranked higher, in the same location, and is much cheaper that WCL. But to say employers consider GMU to be better than American, I think, is unsupported. Just thought I'd throw in a little different perspective.

To the original poster, I think you have to consider where you want to be afterwards and go to school in that region.


it is true that there are many more ppl at American considering PI. However, that means fewer OCIs because employers know it is more of a PI school. Also, the fact that I say GMU is btr than American does not mean I would pay out of state tuition for GMU. I think that would be a bad idea as well.

If you know for sure that all you are looking for is PI, without a doubt, and you are willing to stomach the debt w/ the scarce number of jobs out there right now in case you decide not to do PI... then that's your gamble. But know what you are buying.

:slight edit for wording:

lawschoolbomber
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby lawschoolbomber » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:48 pm

Thanks for the input. I am definitely not looking to go into public interest law. Once I graduate I would love to go practice in a big law firm.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 pm

lawschoolbomber wrote:Thanks for the input. I am definitely not looking to go into public interest law. Once I graduate I would love to go practice in a big law firm.


In that case I would say def try to get into Fordham. They place pretty well into NY biglaw.

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DeSilentio2728
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby DeSilentio2728 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 pm

gwuorbust wrote:Listen, if you go to American you will not have a job. Going to American at sticker is a very, very bad idea. Ppl graduating at median at American are done. You are behind 7 other schools.

... I feel if I have to say this 27 times a day.


btw, do you have any other options? (retake?)


ignore user. some people just have bad attitudes and/or are biased against lower ranked law schools.

search through the threads on American and get a complete picture.

American is expensive and it is true that it is more difficult to land a big law job coming out of American than higher ranked schools, but as you climb down in rankings this becomes progressively more true for all the law schools.

lawschoolbomber
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby lawschoolbomber » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:00 am

thanks DeSilentio2728

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:10 am

DeSilentio2728 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:Listen, if you go to American you will not have a job. Going to American at sticker is a very, very bad idea. Ppl graduating at median at American are done. You are behind 7 other schools.

... I feel if I have to say this 27 times a day.


btw, do you have any other options? (retake?)


ignore user. some people just have bad attitudes and/or are biased against lower ranked law schools.

search through the threads on American and get a complete picture.

American is expensive and it is true that it is more difficult to land a big law job coming out of American than higher ranked schools, but as you climb down in rankings this becomes progressively more true for all the law schools.


so then whats the problem? All I am saying is that in DC getting a biglaw job from American is not something you should bank on. And if you are paying $160,000+ sticker in very real debt then you had better hope you can get a job. Seems like a very big gamble to me.

IMHO, I think it would be much wise decision, if one lacks the scores to go to a t-14, to go to a school w/ a schorly that covers part of the cost. Then at least if you do not have a biglaw job you have less debt to pay off.

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DeSilentio2728
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby DeSilentio2728 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:24 am

gwuorbust wrote:
DeSilentio2728 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:Listen, if you go to American you will not have a job. Going to American at sticker is a very, very bad idea. Ppl graduating at median at American are done. You are behind 7 other schools.

... I feel if I have to say this 27 times a day.


btw, do you have any other options? (retake?)


ignore user. some people just have bad attitudes and/or are biased against lower ranked law schools.

search through the threads on American and get a complete picture.

American is expensive and it is true that it is more difficult to land a big law job coming out of American than higher ranked schools, but as you climb down in rankings this becomes progressively more true for all the law schools.


so then whats the problem? All I am saying is that in DC getting a biglaw job from American is not something you should bank on. And if you are paying $160,000+ sticker in very real debt then you had better hope you can get a job. Seems like a very big gamble to me.

IMHO, I think it would be much wise decision, if one lacks the scores to go to a t-14, to go to a school w/ a schorly that covers part of the cost. Then at least if you do not have a biglaw job you have less debt to pay off.


Valid point, and a much better way of answering OP's question than your previous answer.

However, choosing a law school that fits not only your ambitions, but also choosing a law school where you think that you can do well, is never a gamble. And thus, stating that going to American is a big gamble is a horrible way of stating this decision. What fits one person's ideal of the perfect law school for them may not necessarily fit another person's ideal. But granted when one chooses their final destination for law school, let's hope that person does the necessary research to make the wise decision for their particular situation.

Going to law school isn't a get rich quick kind of thing. You gotta work your ass off no matter where you end up, and if you end up at a school like American, then let's hope you have done so because it fits the place where you best think you will succeed. Perhaps, for OP, American is that place.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:44 am

DeSilentio2728 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
DeSilentio2728 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:Listen, if you go to American you will not have a job. Going to American at sticker is a very, very bad idea. Ppl graduating at median at American are done. You are behind 7 other schools.

... I feel if I have to say this 27 times a day.


btw, do you have any other options? (retake?)


ignore user. some people just have bad attitudes and/or are biased against lower ranked law schools.

search through the threads on American and get a complete picture.

American is expensive and it is true that it is more difficult to land a big law job coming out of American than higher ranked schools, but as you climb down in rankings this becomes progressively more true for all the law schools.


so then whats the problem? All I am saying is that in DC getting a biglaw job from American is not something you should bank on. And if you are paying $160,000+ sticker in very real debt then you had better hope you can get a job. Seems like a very big gamble to me.

IMHO, I think it would be much wise decision, if one lacks the scores to go to a t-14, to go to a school w/ a schorly that covers part of the cost. Then at least if you do not have a biglaw job you have less debt to pay off.


Valid point, and a much better way of answering OP's question than your previous answer.

However, choosing a law school that fits not only your ambitions, but also choosing a law school where you think that you can do well, is never a gamble. And thus, stating that going to American is a big gamble is a horrible way of stating this decision. What fits one person's ideal of the perfect law school for them may not necessarily fit another person's ideal. But granted when one chooses their final destination for law school, let's hope that person does the necessary research to make the wise decision for their particular situation.

Going to law school isn't a get rich quick kind of thing. You gotta work your ass off no matter where you end up, and if you end up at a school like American, then let's hope you have done so because it fits the place where you best think you will succeed. Perhaps, for OP, American is that place.


sure you can think you will do well, but I think it is extremely unwise to assume you will 'do well'* I do not doubt that OP will be able to learn, grow as an indvl, etc, however, to assume above median performance would be unjustified. Most 0Ls assume above median performance, but the truth is that 50% of ppl (ok a tiny bit less than 50% since someone has to be at median) will be below median. And while you may not like the wording of 'gamble,' the truth is that it is a risk to take on 160k in debt when only about the top ~15% will get biglaw jobs.

Also, by that logic if I 'thought' I could do well paying sticker at Cooley then is that not a gamble either? Clearly it would be a terribly unwise gamble.

And perhaps for OP American is the place for him/her. I am just presenting the economic considerations.

*what is meant by 'do well' is of course an unclear term... but at American I would say that is about the top 15-25%.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby DeSilentio2728 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:53 am

Clearly if you thought that about Cooley, then you would be an unwise individual, and you would be so because you did not do the appropriate research beforehand. This of course is not the same thing as thinking you could do well at American. You have to weigh the costs with your own beliefs in American's appropriateness to your own goals. If American is not for OP, then I can guarantee you that there are a lot of folks on tls that would kill to take OP's spot. They cannot all be fools can they? This, however, cannot be said for Cooley.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:03 am

DeSilentio2728 wrote:Clearly if you thought that about Cooley, then you would be an unwise individual, and you would be so because you did not do the appropriate research beforehand. This of course is not the same thing as thinking you could do well at American. You have to weigh the costs with your own beliefs in American's appropriateness to your own goals. If American is not for OP, then I can guarantee you that there are a lot of folks on tls that would kill to take OP's spot. They cannot all be fools can they? This, however, cannot be said for Cooley.


no but some of them can be. and if you are going to American w/ PI in mind then that prob would work. but if someone put down a deposit which will eventually become 160k in total spending to go to American assuming that they are going to walk away w/ a biglaw job in 3 years... I would call that person a fool.

also, if you have contacts so that once you graduate you know you will have a job (family owns a law firm,etc) then I would say good luck to you at American.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby DeSilentio2728 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:19 am

gwuorbust wrote:
DeSilentio2728 wrote:Clearly if you thought that about Cooley, then you would be an unwise individual, and you would be so because you did not do the appropriate research beforehand. This of course is not the same thing as thinking you could do well at American. You have to weigh the costs with your own beliefs in American's appropriateness to your own goals. If American is not for OP, then I can guarantee you that there are a lot of folks on tls that would kill to take OP's spot. They cannot all be fools can they? This, however, cannot be said for Cooley.


no but some of them can be. and if you are going to American w/ PI in mind then that prob would work. but if someone put down a deposit which will eventually become 160k in total spending to go to American assuming that they are going to walk away w/ a biglaw job in 3 years... I would call that person a fool.

also, if you have contacts so that once you graduate you know you will have a job (family owns a law firm,etc) then I would say good luck to you at American.


By your logic, then paying full sticker at a law school like BC or BU would be a gamble just the same, as only 35% of BC or BU grads are going to end up in Big law (per http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf) whereas American is around 15%. Either way, according to your logic it is still a gamble, as you are making these decisions based upon percents. BC/BU are just better percents, but definitely not guarantees.

All I am saying, is that stating law school choices as gambles is a bad way of stating these decisions. Unfortunately, too many posters on tls keep advising perspective applicants that the choice of particular law schools is a gamble.

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DeSilentio2728
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby DeSilentio2728 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:24 am

If you notice on that chart, American had the 25th highest number of graduates entering Big Law upon graduation.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:57 am

DeSilentio2728 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
DeSilentio2728 wrote:Clearly if you thought that about Cooley, then you would be an unwise individual, and you would be so because you did not do the appropriate research beforehand. This of course is not the same thing as thinking you could do well at American. You have to weigh the costs with your own beliefs in American's appropriateness to your own goals. If American is not for OP, then I can guarantee you that there are a lot of folks on tls that would kill to take OP's spot. They cannot all be fools can they? This, however, cannot be said for Cooley.


no but some of them can be. and if you are going to American w/ PI in mind then that prob would work. but if someone put down a deposit which will eventually become 160k in total spending to go to American assuming that they are going to walk away w/ a biglaw job in 3 years... I would call that person a fool.

also, if you have contacts so that once you graduate you know you will have a job (family owns a law firm,etc) then I would say good luck to you at American.


By your logic, then paying full sticker at a law school like BC or BU would be a gamble just the same, as only 35% of BC or BU grads are going to end up in Big law (per http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf) whereas American is around 15%. Either way, according to your logic it is still a gamble, as you are making these decisions based upon percents. BC/BU are just better percents, but definitely not guarantees.

All I am saying, is that stating law school choices as gambles is a bad way of stating these decisions. Unfortunately, too many posters on tls keep advising perspective applicants that the choice of particular law schools is a gamble.


News Flash: Choices in life are a gamble. The question is not if the choices we make are a gamble, but what the expected payoff is relative to price paid for the gamble. The reason BU & BC are a better gamble is because there is a higher probability of high payoff.

DeSilentio2728 wrote:If you notice on that chart, American had the 25th highest number of graduates entering Big Law upon graduation.


Nice try. American also has a graduating class of 449 students. That is huge. The vast size of their graduating class is part of the problem. With so many American grads out there firms can fill their quota of American students with the top of the class. Again, if you can get in about the top 15-25% you will prob be ok. The problem is if you are in the middle of the class. This is not Chicago where if you are median in a small, elite class you will be good to go.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby umichgrad » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:22 pm

Hate to break it to you gwuorbust, but median ANYWHERE outside the T14 and possibly inside the T14 as well, ITE, is fucked. And I work at a big firm in DC and there are almost no (maybe 1 or 2?) GMU grads. They're not terribly well-liked. American and Catholic have much larger representation among partners than GMU, W&L, etc.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:16 pm

umichgrad wrote:Hate to break it to you gwuorbust, but median ANYWHERE outside the T14 and possibly inside the T14 as well, ITE, is fucked. And I work at a big firm in DC and there are almost no (maybe 1 or 2?) GMU grads. They're not terribly well-liked. American and Catholic have much larger representation among partners than GMU, W&L, etc.


That is why I would not take on 160k in debt for a non-t-20 LS. Thus the reason I suggest that ppl not pay sticker at American.

Also, I really don't care how much GMU is liked or disliked since I am not going there. I do know, however, that their graduating placement is stronger than American's (even if that is caused by self-selection at American towards PI that means that there will be fewer OCIs at American, as I have said b4).

Also, since GMU is a much newer school the fact that there are not that many GMU partners yet does not surprise me in the least.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby jerzgrl630 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:12 pm

I'd go with Rutgers. It's much cheaper, and if you sign a lease in NJ you get in-state tuition as a 1L. Job prospects are decent out of a school like Rutgers, and in the very least you are saving yourself a lot of risky debt by going there instead of American.

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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby eaters333 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:20 pm

Also, by that logic if I 'thought' I could do well paying sticker at Cooley then is that not a gamble either? Clearly it would be a terribly unwise gamble.



comparing wcl to cooley? really? you clearly cant be biased based on your name

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gwuorbust
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Re: Need Help Choosing between American and Rutgers at Newark

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:35 pm

eaters333 wrote:Also, by that logic if I 'thought' I could do well paying sticker at Cooley then is that not a gamble either? Clearly it would be a terribly unwise gamble.



comparing wcl to cooley? really? you clearly cant be biased based on your name


LR fail.

I am not saying that wcl = to cooley, I am using an example to show that choosing to enroll in LS is a gamble. Hell, going to HLS is a gamble too, it just has a much better expected payoff than American.

Point is, you should consider the cost and expected payoff. If there is a high cost (160k) and lower expected payoff then I do not think that is the best choice. I'm still waiting to hear from GWU if I get in, however, even if I get off the WL then I do not know if I would go b/c as much as I want to be 220k in debt I just do not feel that is a wise life choice.




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