NYU v. Michigan

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b0dylanguage
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NYU v. Michigan

Postby b0dylanguage » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:18 pm

Hey guys,

I've been able to whittle my law school decisions down to NYU and Michigan. Hate to add to the abundance of "where should I go?!" questions already posted on this site, but I think I've hit a dead-end in my reasoning and would really appreciate some outside counsel. I plan on visiting both schools during their respective ASWs, but if you feel compelled to throw in your two cents, I'd appreciate it.

Just some random facts about me:

I grew up, went to college, and have spent the past two years living in New York City. NYU was the only school I applied to within a 200 mile radius of New York City, as I really had a Lewis-and-Clark desire to live in/see the rest of the country--especially California, in particular San Francisco and the Bay Area.

No idea what I want to study in school, but if someone pointed a gun at me I'd say entertainment law.

Missed out entirely on the "ra-ra", big state school experience at my undergraduate institution. I realize this might seem superficial, but might it play a part in the strength of alumni support down the road?

NYU invited me to apply for a merit-based scholarship (min. $10K/renewable). Haven't heard anything from Michigan about $. Projected costs after three years, without the scholarship: NYU = $210,150; Michigan = $191,100. (Still haven't wrapped my head around how expensive this will all be).

I've always wanted a dog; was thinking about getting one this summer.

I'm an African American male.

Again, I realize this will ultimately come down to "feel", but any insight or comments from alums or current students would be appreciated. :)

dynomite
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby dynomite » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:37 pm

b0dylanguage wrote:I really had a Lewis-and-Clark desire to live in/see the rest of the country ...
Missed out entirely on the "ra-ra", big state school experience at my undergraduate institution. ... I've always wanted a dog; was thinking about getting one this summer.


These 3 things scream Michigan. If you wanted to work in a big NY firm or some such I'd say stick with NYU, but you don't seem to be saying that.

Ann Arbor is a cute, inexpensive, fun town to live in. You're minutes from amazing hiking/fishing/camping areas. You'll be able to afford a large, comfortable apartment, giving a dog plenty of space to roam while you're at class. And every Saturday during football season will feel like Mardi Gras.

As a young lawyer post-law school you're going to have no quality of life whatsoever. This could be your last chance to live the kind of experience you're talking about for a long, long time.

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scribelaw
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby scribelaw » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:45 pm

Check out the placement stats for Michigan and NYU in California -- I think they both do pretty well out there.

If NYU is going to give you $, I'd suspect you should get a sizable scholarship from Michigan, maybe something in the $54k-$67k range.

EDIT: Just saw you're a URM. I don't know what that means for scholarships, whether it makes it more unpredictable. Regardless, I'd think you'd be able to leverage NYU money at Michigan without much trouble.
Last edited by scribelaw on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:50 pm

Michigan, no question. NYU is on a downward trend anyway. They can't even place more than half their class into biglaw.

Taking clerkships and biglaw into consideration, Michigan is roughly on the same level as Harvard.

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b0dylanguage
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby b0dylanguage » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:04 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Michigan, no question. NYU is on a downward trend anyway.


NYU on a downward trend?! For serious?

oneforship
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby oneforship » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:05 pm

b0dylanguage wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Michigan, no question. NYU is on a downward trend anyway.


NYU on a downward trend?! For serious?


It's relatively indisputable.

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Tangerine Gleam
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:06 pm

IBB-fish

b0dylanguage wrote:I really had a Lewis-and-Clark desire to live in/see the rest of the country--especially California, in particular San Francisco and the Bay Area.


Props on the above -- the Bay area rules. FWIW, I've spoken to a lot of lawyers in San Francisco regarding my own school choice, because this is where I'd like to end up after school. While it's a relatively low sample size (5 or 6 opinions so far), they all have spoken very highly of Michigan grads...some of them even regard them more highly than Boalties, of which there are a lot out here. Two of the older attorneys weren't aware that NYU was considered a "Top 10" school these days...and one of them used to be the head hiring partner at his firm.

I've spent a lot of time in New York (UG and beyond) and have lots of friends there. I've noticed that the longer one stays in NYC, the less likely they are to leave. If you go there for law school, it's more likely that you'll just stay. This isn't a problem for anyone who loves NYC, but considering that you're seemingly itching to try something new, NYU might not be the best choice.

You can't go wrong with either school, but I say branch out and go Michigan. They both do well nationally, but Michigan truly distributes alllll over the country. Michigan degrees have a lot of portability; this will play well into your desire to explore. Push yourself, do something a little different...I don't think you'll regret it. $20k less in expenses (honestly, wouldn't surprise me if it was more) won't hurt, either.

If you were intent on living and working in NYC, I'd say NYU.

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tallboone
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby tallboone » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Michigan, no question. NYU is on a downward trend anyway. They can't even place more than half their class into biglaw.

Taking clerkships and biglaw into consideration, Michigan is roughly on the same level as Harvard.


Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Helm is most likely going to Mich, and he should disclose that before making such blatantly biased statements. NYU is not on a downward trend, it just had a rough year in biglaw placement because NYC shed so many jobs and had by far the most no-offers of any legal market. Therefore, Mich increased its placement vis-a-vis NYU (mostly due to self selection on the part of NYU students). But NYU is generally considered to be a slightly superior school within the legal and academic community. That being said, UM is a great school as well and if you can find a reason you prefer it over NYU, do not let its slightly inferior reputation dissuade you from attending. And yeah, definitely visit Mich on ASW if you can.
Last edited by tallboone on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

awesomepossum
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby awesomepossum » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:13 pm

I think it makes sense to visit and make a decision. I also went to school in NYC and the whole 'ra-ra' thing was a big part of my decision to make the choice for Michigan. I also figured I'm going to go back to NYC to work (which I am) so it wasn't so critical for me to be in NYC for law school. I didn't care about getting the 'NYC experience.' It's sort of unfortunate that our sports teams decided to nosedive in the last couple years but the nice thing is that it's a lifelong affiliation. I also expect things to get better. :D

I made the choice for Michigan and US News tells me I went to the worse ranked school. That's cool. If you look at the percentages, there's certainly a good argument that it could be easier to get a NYC biglaw job out of NYU. Is it substantially easier? I personally don't think so but I'm sure there will be people who argue otherwise. I'll say this. If you want to get a biglaw job in NYC and you do relatively well, your odds are very good. Is it guaranteed? No. But it's not guaranteed at NYU either.

Again, my advice is to visit and make your choice based on that.

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Rocketman11
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Rocketman11 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 pm

tallboone wrote:Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Helm is most likely going to Mich, and he should disclose that before making such blatantly biased statements.


this was my reaction. crazy.

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Sogui
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Sogui » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm

Blatant anti-NYU trolling

Blatant pro-Michigan trolling

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kittenmittons
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:17 pm

tallboone wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Michigan, no question. NYU is on a downward trend anyway. They can't even place more than half their class into biglaw.

Taking clerkships and biglaw into consideration, Michigan is roughly on the same level as Harvard.


Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Helm is most likely going to Mich, and he should disclose that before making such blatantly biased statements. NYU is not on a downward trend, it just had a rough year in biglaw placement because NYC shed so many jobs and had by far the most no-offers of any legal market. Therefore, Mich increased it's placement vis-a-vis NYU (mostly due to self selection on the part of NYU students). But NYU is generally considered to be the superior school within the legal and academic community. That being said, UM is a great school as well and if you can find a reason you prefer it over NYU, so not let its slightly inferior reputation dissuade you from attending.


The joke



--------



your head

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 pm

There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU. If you missed out on fratting and tailgating at 19, law school is not the way to make up for it.

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 pm

LieutKaffee wrote:There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU.


a job

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kittenmittons
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby kittenmittons » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
LieutKaffee wrote:There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU.


a job


180

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stratocophic
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:23 pm

LieutKaffee wrote:There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU. If you missed out on fratting and tailgating at 19, law school is not the way to make up for it.

IBUVA

oneforship
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby oneforship » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

stratocophic wrote:
LieutKaffee wrote:There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU. If you missed out on fratting and tailgating at 19, law school is not the way to make up for it.

IBUVA


Have you considered EDing UVA?

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:24 pm

oneforship wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
LieutKaffee wrote:There is nothing you can get from Michigan that you can't get from NYU. If you missed out on fratting and tailgating at 19, law school is not the way to make up for it.

IBUVA


Have you considered EDing UVA?


lol @ UVA proselytizers

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scribelaw
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby scribelaw » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:29 pm

If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.

The anti-NYU trolls here in the last few days are getting to be a bit much. CLS saw the exact same drop in Biglaw placement from the 2009 figures, and yet no one is trolling them.

oneforship
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby oneforship » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:30 pm

scribelaw wrote:If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.

The anti-NYU trolls here in the last few days are getting to be a bit much. CLS saw the exact same drop in Biglaw placement from the 2009 figures, and yet no one is trolling them.


OP didn't ask about CLS.

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tallboone
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby tallboone » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:33 pm

scribelaw wrote:actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10


This is also a ridiculous statement. TLS needs a little more objectivity. You know, dispassionate argument. Like that coming from lawyers.

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scribelaw
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby scribelaw » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:35 pm

oneforship wrote:
scribelaw wrote:If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.

The anti-NYU trolls here in the last few days are getting to be a bit much. CLS saw the exact same drop in Biglaw placement from the 2009 figures, and yet no one is trolling them.


OP didn't ask about CLS.


But the response was an inaccurate assessment that NYU is somehow on a downward trend. There's one data point that someone could use to support that -- 2009 Biglaw placement. By that rationale, you'd have to say it's "indisputable" that Chicago and CLS are in decline, too, because their numbers went down by just as much.

oneforship
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby oneforship » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:37 pm

scribelaw wrote:
oneforship wrote:
scribelaw wrote:If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.

The anti-NYU trolls here in the last few days are getting to be a bit much. CLS saw the exact same drop in Biglaw placement from the 2009 figures, and yet no one is trolling them.


OP didn't ask about CLS.


But the response was an inaccurate assessment that NYU is somehow on a downward trend. There's one data point that someone could use to support that -- 2009 Biglaw placement. By that rationale, you'd have to say it's "indisputable" that Chicago and CLS are in decline, too, because their numbers went down by just as much.


In all fairness to NYU, it's tough to be in decline when you already weren't great to begin with.

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rayiner
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby rayiner » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:38 pm

scribelaw wrote:If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.


By 10 or 15 years, you mean 23? http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999

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holydonkey
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Re: NYU v. Michigan

Postby holydonkey » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:39 pm

scribelaw wrote:
oneforship wrote:
scribelaw wrote:If you look at the long-term data, it's actually Michigan that has been in decline, from a top three school 10 or 15 years ago to clinging for dear life in the T10.

The anti-NYU trolls here in the last few days are getting to be a bit much. CLS saw the exact same drop in Biglaw placement from the 2009 figures, and yet no one is trolling them.


OP didn't ask about CLS.


But the response was an inaccurate assessment that NYU is somehow on a downward trend. There's one data point that someone could use to support that -- 2009 Biglaw placement. By that rationale, you'd have to say it's "indisputable" that Chicago and CLS are in decline, too, because their numbers went down by just as much.


Exactly. Michigan is in decline -4%. Chicago is in decline -15.5%. Columbia is in decline -16.1%. NYU is in decline -15.3%.

I prefer Michigan's decline to CCN's nosedive into the chasm of unemployment.
Last edited by holydonkey on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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