Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

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qualster
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Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:07 am

that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:17 am

qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:18 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.


Awesome suggestion. I feel like a dim bulb for not thinking about that though. So, thanks for the help, but I will not thank you for making me feel like a dunce.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:21 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.


Ladies and gentleman, I have more info for you. I followed Edmund's advice and it appears that I was on the right track.

Are there enough candidates out there for these schools to be attempting to achieve such huge increases? It doesn't seem possible.

The other support for my point is that an admissions office rep at a pretty solid school told me a week ago that this is what's happening, and that schools will be going to the waitlist like crazy. It appears that she is probably right.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:24 am

qualster wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.


Ladies and gentleman, I have more info for you. I followed Edmund's advice and it appears that I was on the right track.

Are there enough candidates out there for these schools to be attempting to achieve such huge increases? It doesn't seem possible.


My answer is yes. This is because the economic recession is getting a lot of people to flock to graduate school.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:26 am

Since there are much more applicants out there, the schools can be a lot more selective in their admissions process.

But my primary concern would be this: whether these schools are going to try and use this year's increase in applicants as a way to maintain a higher level of LSAT medians throughout the future.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:26 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.


Ladies and gentleman, I have more info for you. I followed Edmund's advice and it appears that I was on the right track.

Are there enough candidates out there for these schools to be attempting to achieve such huge increases? It doesn't seem possible.


My answer is yes. This is because the economic recession is getting a lot of people to flock to graduate school.


How many more applicants are there this year than last year? Are there really that many more? I heard that there aren't really that many more applicants than last year. It's just that more people are applying to 20 or so schools.

By the way, what is the recession thing of which you speak?

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:28 am

qualster wrote:By the way, what is the recession thing of which you speak?


You've got to be kidding me.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:28 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:Since there are much more applicants out there, the schools can be a lot more selective in their admissions process.

But my primary concern would be this: whether these schools are going to try and use this year's increase in applicants as a way to maintain a higher level of LSAT medians throughout the future.


Bingo bango bongo! They are setting the bar too high.

Also, there just can't be any way, mathematically, that Kentucky can raise their median by three in one year. How many more LSAT takers would there have to be for this to happen? The number seems implausible even in this economy.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:30 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:By the way, what is the recession thing of which you speak?


You've got to be kidding me.


Of course, but seriously, there is no way there are that many more people taking the LSAT and applying to law school.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:31 am

qualster wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


You have a fairly interesting point. I think one way to validate that point would be to compare last year's cycle from Kentucky to the school's reported median.


Ladies and gentleman, I have more info for you. I followed Edmund's advice and it appears that I was on the right track.

Are there enough candidates out there for these schools to be attempting to achieve such huge increases? It doesn't seem possible.

The other support for my point is that an admissions office rep at a pretty solid school told me a week ago that this is what's happening, and that schools will be going to the waitlist like crazy. It appears that she is probably right.


I don't think that their is enough representation for schools outside the top 20 (by applicants on LSN.com), to make estimations like the one's you are trying to make.

For example, the vast majority of U of Kentucky applicants aren't on LSN. In fact, I would assume the majority, 51% or so, would be only applying to schools in state or the surrounding states (because they want to practice in Kentucky).

LSN is useful for seeing your chances of getting into a school, not what the medians for a school would or would not be.

Somewhere around the top 20 have enough applicants to see real patterns - but otherwise, no.

For example last year, Tulane had like ~350 applicants on LSN and over 3,000 total applications.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:36 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:Since there are much more applicants out there, the schools can be a lot more selective in their admissions process.

But my primary concern would be this: whether these schools are going to try and use this year's increase in applicants as a way to maintain a higher level of LSAT medians throughout the future.



Aberzombie1892 wrote:LSN is useful for seeing your chances of getting into a school, not what the medians for a school would or would not be. Somewhere around the top 20 have enough applicants to see real patterns - but otherwise, no.



Thanks guys, I needed the lulz.

Ungrateful 0L
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby Ungrateful 0L » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:42 am

looking at my gucci its about that time....

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:56 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:I don't think that their is enough representation for schools outside the top 20 (by applicants on LSN.com), to make estimations like the one's you are trying to make.

For example, the vast majority of U of Kentucky applicants aren't on LSN. In fact, I would assume the majority, 51% or so, would be only applying to schools in state or the surrounding states (because they want to practice in Kentucky).

LSN is useful for seeing your chances of getting into a school, not what the medians for a school would or would not be.

Somewhere around the top 20 have enough applicants to see real patterns - but otherwise, no.

For example last year, Tulane had like ~350 applicants on LSN and over 3,000 total applications.


+1

Altoids
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby Altoids » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:59 am

There is only a 1.5% increase in applicants this year. This is from Dean Pless from the University of Illinois. People are just applying to lots of schools. It would seem to me that as a result, waitlists will in fact be very busy this cycle. How could it be otherwise?

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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby Altoids » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:00 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Somewhere around the top 20 have enough applicants to see real patterns - but otherwise, no.

For example last year, Tulane had like ~350 applicants on LSN and over 3,000 total applications.


Why is ~12% not a representative sample? I'm no statistics expert - just wondering.

njskatchmo
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby njskatchmo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:11 am

12 percent can be representative as long as the pool is randomly drawn. This is unluckly to be the case. The best applicants are in all probability mor elikely to be posting on LSN.

09042014
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:16 am

njskatchmo wrote:12 percent can be representative as long as the pool is randomly drawn. This is unluckly to be the case. The best applicants are in all probability mor elikely to be posting on LSN.


I'm not sure if the best applicants are more likely to be posting on LSN. Why do you think that?

I would guess that more informed applicants are posting on LSN. Someone interested enough to find LSN will find sites like tls that will help put together good applications. This might mean that LSN is biased in favor of being more optimistic than reality. For example people with low GPA's might better deal with it by including GPA addendum that they learned to send on the internet. They might also send Why X? essays and all sorts of things.

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nonsequitur
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby nonsequitur » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:17 am

qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


It may be the case that they are raising the bar this year, but using LSN as the basis for this kind of extrapolation is somewhat dubious.

First, admissions are an ongoing process at this point. Most likely schools will accept more people with higher numbers early in the cycle. As a number of applicants with higher scores withdraw students with lower scores will be accepted. Just wait and see what happens in April.

Second, LSN is not just a self-selecting sample of applicants, but a highly skewed sample. I noticed that you have similar numbers of users on the site in the 150-160 range (the mode should be somewhere in this set) as you do in the 170-180 range (top 2-3 percentile). If you look at just about any school in the middle of the top 100 the averages of matriculated students in no way match the averages on LSN. The only way you can really know what's happening is to check the profile of the 2010 entering class when that information is published, or to have an inside line to the admissions office.

Year-to-year is impossible to predict, but over time I doubt that schools will be able to change their student profiles much without adding value such as better faculty, facilities, or programs. Good luck to you!

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:21 am

nonsequitur wrote:
qualster wrote:that nearly every school is trying to bump their median LSAT by quite a bit. Kentucky, for example, appears to be dinging nearly every applicant below a 162 LSAT unless the GPA is relatively high. Their previous median was a 159. The jump they are trying to achieve would be huge. Can they do it?

Is what can be observed on LSN not really representative of what they might be trying to achieve? Am I drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted by the available evidence? After all, my basis is a self reporting site.


It may be the case that they are raising the bar this year, but using LSN as the basis for this kind of extrapolation is somewhat dubious.

First, admissions are an ongoing process at this point. Most likely schools will accept more people with higher numbers early in the cycle. As a number of applicants with higher scores withdraw students with lower scores will be accepted. Just wait and see what happens in April.

Second, LSN is not just a self-selecting sample of applicants, but a highly skewed sample. I noticed that you have similar numbers of users on the site in the 150-160 range (the mode should be somewhere in this set) as you do in the 170-180 range (top 2-3 percentile). If you look at just about any school in the middle of the top 100 the averages of matriculated students in no way match the averages on LSN. The only way you can really know what's happening is to check the profile of the 2010 entering class when that information is published, or to have an inside line to the admissions office.

Year-to-year is impossible to predict, but over time I doubt that schools will be able to change their student profiles much without adding value such as better faculty, facilities, or programs. Good luck to you!


It is fun to speculate though, and the graphs on lsn for certain schools are a bit confusing.

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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:37 am

nonsequitur wrote:
Second, LSN is not just a self-selecting sample of applicants, but a highly skewed sample. I noticed that you have similar numbers of users on the site in the 150-160 range (the mode should be somewhere in this set) as you do in the 170-180 range (top 2-3 percentile). If you look at just about any school in the middle of the top 100 the averages of matriculated students in no way match the averages on LSN. The only way you can really know what's happening is to check the profile of the 2010 entering class when that information is published, or to have an inside line to the admissions office.



While true, this is almost completely irrelevant when considering LSN's effectiveness as an admissions tool. That person after person seems to miss this fact amazes me.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:38 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
nonsequitur wrote:
Second, LSN is not just a self-selecting sample of applicants, but a highly skewed sample. I noticed that you have similar numbers of users on the site in the 150-160 range (the mode should be somewhere in this set) as you do in the 170-180 range (top 2-3 percentile). If you look at just about any school in the middle of the top 100 the averages of matriculated students in no way match the averages on LSN. The only way you can really know what's happening is to check the profile of the 2010 entering class when that information is published, or to have an inside line to the admissions office.



While true, this is almost completely irrelevant when considering LSN's effectiveness as an admissions tool. That person after person seems to miss this fact amazes me.


I saw it. Just not in the mood to think and argue. I'd rather help to create discussion and get the answers that way. I'm kind of new to this law school admissions thing. Trying to figure it out.

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nonsequitur
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby nonsequitur » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:46 am

qualster wrote:It is fun to speculate though, and the graphs on lsn for certain schools are a bit confusing.


Yeah, speculation is fun. Especially while waiting months on end between applying and receiving your decision. It's been my hobby for the last year :P

The graphs sometimes have multiple date points piled on top of each other too, so they're just about impossible to read. I've given up.

qualster
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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby qualster » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:47 am

nonsequitur wrote:
qualster wrote:It is fun to speculate though, and the graphs on lsn for certain schools are a bit confusing.


Yeah, speculation is fun. Especially while waiting months on end between applying and receiving your decision. It's been my hobby for the last year :P

The graphs sometimes have multiple date points piled on top of each other too, so they're just about impossible to read. I've given up.


OK, so it's not fun, but it is kind of interesting. The waiting is the best part. :wink:

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Re: Looking At LSN, It Is Obvious That Lines Are Being Drawn &

Postby stratocophic » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:59 am

qualster wrote:
D. H2Oman wrote:
nonsequitur wrote:
Second, LSN is not just a self-selecting sample of applicants, but a highly skewed sample. I noticed that you have similar numbers of users on the site in the 150-160 range (the mode should be somewhere in this set) as you do in the 170-180 range (top 2-3 percentile). If you look at just about any school in the middle of the top 100 the averages of matriculated students in no way match the averages on LSN. The only way you can really know what's happening is to check the profile of the 2010 entering class when that information is published, or to have an inside line to the admissions office.



While true, this is almost completely irrelevant when considering LSN's effectiveness as an admissions tool. That person after person seems to miss this fact amazes me.


I saw it. Just not in the mood to think and argue. I'd rather help to create discussion and get the answers that way. I'm kind of new to this law school admissions thing. Trying to figure it out.


Not in the mood to argue? And you want to be a lawyer?

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