LSAT AND GMAT?

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby JustDude » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:55 am

icydash wrote:
the "+connections" has to come from somewhere. For a lot of people, that's the "/MBA". I think we're arguing the same point from two different angles. We both agree you need a JD + connections, i'm just saying a great way to make tons of potentially huge connections is getting an MBA from a top school.


If its Harvard, Just JD will generate enough onnections. If it is a lower-ranked school, then you dont need those connections.

icydash
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby icydash » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:59 am

JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:
the "+connections" has to come from somewhere. For a lot of people, that's the "/MBA". I think we're arguing the same point from two different angles. We both agree you need a JD + connections, i'm just saying a great way to make tons of potentially huge connections is getting an MBA from a top school.


If its Harvard, Just JD will generate enough onnections. If it is a lower-ranked school, then you dont need those connections.


If i read this correctly, i think you're insinuating that if you don't go to Harvard, you won't be able to practice a field of law where you need connections.

You know there are a lot of people out there who don't go to Harvard/even a top 14 school *gasp* who are extremely successful, practicing everything from corporate/business law to IP law, right? (my father, uncle and brother being three of them)

The entire [[[top14 school or die/you'll never get a good job and be poor forever]]] mentality on this forum is ridiculous. Almost everything has to do with connections, and you can make them in a number of ways. Probably more has to do with connections you have/make then the law school you go to, period, when it comes to getting a good job in the sector you want.

If that was NOT what you were insinuating, then I apologize.

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby JustDude » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:05 am

icydash wrote:
JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:
the "+connections" has to come from somewhere. For a lot of people, that's the "/MBA". I think we're arguing the same point from two different angles. We both agree you need a JD + connections, i'm just saying a great way to make tons of potentially huge connections is getting an MBA from a top school.


If its Harvard, Just JD will generate enough onnections. If it is a lower-ranked school, then you dont need those connections.


If i read this correctly, i think you're insinuating that if you don't go to Harvard, you won't be able to practice a field of law where you need connections.

You know there are a lot of people out there who don't go to Harvard/even a top 14 school *gasp* who are extremely successful, practicing everything from corporate/business law to IP law, right? (my father, uncle and brother being three of them)

The entire [[[top14 school or die/you'll never get a good job and be poor forever]]] mentality on this forum is ridiculous. Almost everything has to do with connections, and you can make them in a number of ways. Probably more has to do with connections you have/make then the law school you go to, period, when it comes to getting a good job in the sector you want.

If that was NOT what you were insinuating, then I apologize.


Thats exactely what i was insinuating. And you know, this mentality is right. Lets not go in that discussion now.


Funny thing - You have enough family Are your relatives successful???. If yes, then you should do just fine

icydash
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby icydash » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:13 am

JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:
JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:
the "+connections" has to come from somewhere. For a lot of people, that's the "/MBA". I think we're arguing the same point from two different angles. We both agree you need a JD + connections, i'm just saying a great way to make tons of potentially huge connections is getting an MBA from a top school.


If its Harvard, Just JD will generate enough onnections. If it is a lower-ranked school, then you dont need those connections.


If i read this correctly, i think you're insinuating that if you don't go to Harvard, you won't be able to practice a field of law where you need connections.

You know there are a lot of people out there who don't go to Harvard/even a top 14 school *gasp* who are extremely successful, practicing everything from corporate/business law to IP law, right? (my father, uncle and brother being three of them)

The entire [[[top14 school or die/you'll never get a good job and be poor forever]]] mentality on this forum is ridiculous. Almost everything has to do with connections, and you can make them in a number of ways. Probably more has to do with connections you have/make then the law school you go to, period, when it comes to getting a good job in the sector you want.

If that was NOT what you were insinuating, then I apologize.


Thats exactely what i was insinuating. And you know, this mentality is right. Lets not go in that discussion now.


Funny thing - You have enough family Are your relatives successful???. If yes, then you should do just fine


They are extremely successful, and two went to Albany Law School and one went to St. Johns. My dad is the head of litigation in a NY firm (he went to albany, and the firm specializers in corporate/business/med mal law & litigation), my brother just graduated two years ago and started at Bickel & Brewer in NYC (a business/corporate litigation firm) and also went to Albany, and my uncle went to St. Johns and is a judge.

The point is, my uncle/dad did it all on their own, with T3 degrees. My brother (also a t3 degree) got some help from my dad in getting the B&B initial internship, but from there it was all his own hard work. And they are all in the corporate/business law sector. Another partner in this firm went to Hofstra, and had no inside connections--just worked his way up.

It's not T14 or die. Plenty of people do very well without connections, and not coming from a T14, or even tier 2 school.

Obviously the connections help, though -- I'm just saying an MBA is a great way to get those connections if you don't have family in "the biz" and you're not in a T14 school.

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby JustDude » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:23 am

icydash wrote:They are extremely successful, and two went to Albany Law School and one went to St. Johns. My dad is the head of litigation in a NY firm (he went to albany, and the firm specializers in corporate/business/med mal law & litigation), my brother just graduated two years ago and started at Bickel & Brewer in NYC (a business/corporate litigation firm) and also went to Albany, and my uncle went to St. Johns and is a judge.

The point is, my uncle/dad did it all on their own, with T3 degrees. My brother (also a t3 degree) got some help from my dad in getting the B&B initial internship, but from there it was all his own hard work. And they are all in the corporate/business law sector. Another partner in this firm went to Hofstra, and had no inside connections--just worked his way up.

It's not T14 or die. Plenty of people do very well without connections, and not coming from a T14, or even tier 2 school.

Obviously the connections help, though -- I'm just saying an MBA is a great way to get those connections if you don't have family in "the biz" and you're not in a T14 school.


I am glad for you. Honestly, it makes MBA even less useful IMO. But hey, may be it will work out.

icydash
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby icydash » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:30 am

JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:They are extremely successful, and two went to Albany Law School and one went to St. Johns. My dad is the head of litigation in a NY firm (he went to albany, and the firm specializers in corporate/business/med mal law & litigation), my brother just graduated two years ago and started at Bickel & Brewer in NYC (a business/corporate litigation firm) and also went to Albany, and my uncle went to St. Johns and is a judge.

The point is, my uncle/dad did it all on their own, with T3 degrees. My brother (also a t3 degree) got some help from my dad in getting the B&B initial internship, but from there it was all his own hard work. And they are all in the corporate/business law sector. Another partner in this firm went to Hofstra, and had no inside connections--just worked his way up.

It's not T14 or die. Plenty of people do very well without connections, and not coming from a T14, or even tier 2 school.

Obviously the connections help, though -- I'm just saying an MBA is a great way to get those connections if you don't have family in "the biz" and you're not in a T14 school.


I am glad for you. Honestly, it makes MBA even less useful IMO. But hey, may be it will work out.


Haha well i'm not getting the MBA...i have family connections...i'm saying for people who don't have connections, getting an MBA from a top school if you want to do business/corporate law may not be a bad idea because it'll create connections/probably a lot of future business.

nycparalegal
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby nycparalegal » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:47 am

I never understood the importance of getting an MBA. How does that degree make you a better manager?

icydash
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby icydash » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:55 am

nycparalegal wrote:I never understood the importance of getting an MBA. How does that degree make you a better manager?


MBA classes are similar in structure to law school classes... a lot of case studies, where you learn about decisions made by companies, how they grow, their successes and failures, etc...

They also use the Socratic method, and ask you to read case studies that are cutoff after the startup phase, analyze the data to make decisions on the spot about what would be best for the company, employees, investors, etc...

Basically, they put you in a position where you're the CEO (or another chief officer) of a company, and you have to make recommendations, build out business strategy, write business plans, papers, analyze data, etc...

Do this enough in groups/classes/on your own and you learn effective management methods, make important connections, learn how to successfully grow companies, what works and what doesn't, and so on.

You also take financial accounting classes, etc etc.

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Ragged
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Ragged » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:02 am

JustDude wrote:
Ragged wrote:In the same boat. Taking a GMAT course right now.


If you need a GMAT course you are borderline retarded


Yea its a joke. Its just that I'm not motivated enough this semester to do self study. Or maybe I'm just borderline retarded. Who knows these things...

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby gdh » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:15 pm

JustDude wrote:
icydash wrote:
JustDude wrote:JD/MBA. Gotta be the useless degree ever


why is it useless? i've heard a lot of people say different things about it, i'm interested in your take on the joint degree.


No job needs both. If you get a job, you will be using either one or another.

However, it will make you overqualified for that job, and employers are mor likely to go with single degree holder.

If it is not a top school, you will be unemployed regardless wether it is just MBA or JD or JD/MBA combined



I see both sides of this one... I'm looking at both but see it as a practical extension and hedge. I currently work in corporate finance but want to go to law school. When I graduate, I can re-evaluate my priorities and practice law (likely first choice) or go further into business - which the MBA will facilitate. If you don't already have work experience then the MBA on top is just extra letters, but if you have work experience both degrees allow you to keep two options open for the future. I would agree however that the JD/MBA doesn't offer a clear advantage in it of itself. If you want to practice law you need the JD and wont use the MBA (or if you do it will be infrequently), if you go into business the MBA is what you will use and you may only occasionally reference skills and knowledge from the JD.

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englawyer
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby englawyer » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:42 pm

there is a ton of jd/mba hating on this thread. there are several major benefits to the joint degree (which is why i am thinking of pursuing it if i am fortunate enough to be admitted):

#1. personal "brand". JD grads are stereotyped as extremely smart and analytical but very book-ish, slightly autistic, and averse to math. MBA grads are stereotyped as leaders w/ strong social skills and business sense but not exactly the cream-of-the-crop intellectually. if you do the combo at a top school, you mitigate the weakness of each degree's brand and thus enhance the overall strength. This helps with rain-making, connections, client relations, job-hunting, etc.

#2. exit opportunities from law. many people wish to transition after a few years from corporate law to banking or some other business-related job, and it becomes that much easier with the MBA. it is still possible with just the JD, but the combination gives you career flexibility down the line. law firms do hire jd/mba holders, and even give a higher starting salary or signing bonus. law firms are based on attrition so i am sure they would be happy to see a jd/mba associate leave after 3-4 years to go work as a banker (where he/she will then keep in mind the connections and whatnot they have at the law firm).

#3. THREE summer internships. want to explore different fields? while in school, you can try out three careers before you commit to one. for example, i have heard after 1st year = corporate law, after 2nd year= i-bank, after 3rd year= private equity and graduated into a hedge fund. that sounds pretty cool to me.

all that said, i can see that is definitely not for everyone. some people ARE math-averse, and have no interest in business. others want to pursue litigation/public interest and would have no use in the ability to lateral down the line. but if the three things above appeal to you, and you manage to be admitted to a top school combo, it could very well be worth the 4th year of schooling to get a top MBA.

ughOSU
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby ughOSU » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:16 pm

englawyer wrote:there is a ton of jd/mba hating on this thread. there are several major benefits to the joint degree (which is why i am thinking of pursuing it if i am fortunate enough to be admitted):

#1. personal "brand". JD grads are stereotyped as extremely smart and analytical but very book-ish, slightly autistic, and averse to math. MBA grads are stereotyped as leaders w/ strong social skills and business sense but not exactly the cream-of-the-crop intellectually. if you do the combo at a top school, you mitigate the weakness of each degree's brand and thus enhance the overall strength. This helps with rain-making, connections, client relations, job-hunting, etc.

#2. exit opportunities from law. many people wish to transition after a few years from corporate law to banking or some other business-related job, and it becomes that much easier with the MBA. it is still possible with just the JD, but the combination gives you career flexibility down the line. law firms do hire jd/mba holders, and even give a higher starting salary or signing bonus. law firms are based on attrition so i am sure they would be happy to see a jd/mba associate leave after 3-4 years to go work as a banker (where he/she will then keep in mind the connections and whatnot they have at the law firm).

#3. THREE summer internships. want to explore different fields? while in school, you can try out three careers before you commit to one. for example, i have heard after 1st year = corporate law, after 2nd year= i-bank, after 3rd year= private equity and graduated into a hedge fund. that sounds pretty cool to me.

all that said, i can see that is definitely not for everyone. some people ARE math-averse, and have no interest in business. others want to pursue litigation/public interest and would have no use in the ability to lateral down the line. but if the three things above appeal to you, and you manage to be admitted to a top school combo, it could very well be worth the 4th year of schooling to get a top MBA.

fantastic post as usual.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby engineer » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:56 pm

englawyer wrote:there is a ton of jd/mba hating on this thread. there are several major benefits to the joint degree (which is why i am thinking of pursuing it if i am fortunate enough to be admitted):

#1. personal "brand". JD grads are stereotyped as extremely smart and analytical but very book-ish, slightly autistic, and averse to math. MBA grads are stereotyped as leaders w/ strong social skills and business sense but not exactly the cream-of-the-crop intellectually. if you do the combo at a top school, you mitigate the weakness of each degree's brand and thus enhance the overall strength. This helps with rain-making, connections, client relations, job-hunting, etc.

#2. exit opportunities from law. many people wish to transition after a few years from corporate law to banking or some other business-related job, and it becomes that much easier with the MBA. it is still possible with just the JD, but the combination gives you career flexibility down the line. law firms do hire jd/mba holders, and even give a higher starting salary or signing bonus. law firms are based on attrition so i am sure they would be happy to see a jd/mba associate leave after 3-4 years to go work as a banker (where he/she will then keep in mind the connections and whatnot they have at the law firm).

#3. THREE summer internships. want to explore different fields? while in school, you can try out three careers before you commit to one. for example, i have heard after 1st year = corporate law, after 2nd year= i-bank, after 3rd year= private equity and graduated into a hedge fund. that sounds pretty cool to me.

all that said, i can see that is definitely not for everyone. some people ARE math-averse, and have no interest in business. others want to pursue litigation/public interest and would have no use in the ability to lateral down the line. but if the three things above appeal to you, and you manage to be admitted to a top school combo, it could very well be worth the 4th year of schooling to get a top MBA.


Awesome post. I'm debating between a Ph.D. (electrical engineering) or an MBA after law school, because my personal interests align most closely with corporate law. I see myself starting companies, and the most successful leaders (from what I've found) are the ones with a certain degree of technical savvy.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby hsprophet » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:51 am

MBAs aren't always useless. It depends on the school. I got my MBA five years ago, and because of it I can better understand how a corporation functions (e.g. how my job as a [whatever] contributes to the business as a whole), how corporate decisions are made, how to start a company (we did real business startup projects), how to work in interdiciplinary teams, and learned at lot about accounting and finance.

Some MBAs provide very useful, applied educations. Others just give you theory that doesn't always mean much.

All that said, I think it's up the air as to whether a JD/MBA is any better than just a JD. If you want to go into corporate law, business ligitgation, or any type of law that deals with the functions of businesses, it could be helpful. I don't think an MBA would ever hurt you for any career.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby watts » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:58 am

JustDude wrote:
MBA is not a degree. Its not a real knowledge. Its a club where you make connections and network for 2 years. And different schools - different clubs.


JustDude wrote:
For corporate law you need JD with connections, not JD with MBA.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Cestjustemoi » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:19 am

Seeing as many law students don't have undergraduate degrees in business it is useful for those who find they like corporate law to study business. That being said I have to take the GMAT to get into the Master of Science in accounting which I need to sit for the CPA.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby bgdddymtty » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:31 am

JustDude wrote:MBA is not a degree. Its not a real knowledge. Its a club where you make connections and network for 2 years. And different schools - different clubs. To get JD/MBA in order to use MA "on long term goals" is insane. It will hinder you more then it will help you.


You're an idiot who is speaking from his sphincter. (If you're going to make bald, provocative assertions, I will too.) If the MBA is so useless and lacking in "real knowledge," riddle me this: why do the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies hire freshly minted MBA's at 25-100% higher salaries than they would BA's with two more years' experience? Certainly they would have figured out by now that this MBA stuff is all nonsense, no? Or is the wisdom of the great and powerful JustDude just that much greater than the collective brain trust of the captains of industry?

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Cestjustemoi » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:43 am

bgdddymtty wrote:
JustDude wrote:MBA is not a degree. Its not a real knowledge. Its a club where you make connections and network for 2 years. And different schools - different clubs. To get JD/MBA in order to use MA "on long term goals" is insane. It will hinder you more then it will help you.


You're an idiot who is speaking from his sphincter. (If you're going to make bald, provocative assertions, I will too.) If the MBA is so useless and lacking in "real knowledge," riddle me this: why do the vast majority of Fortune 500 companies hire freshly minted MBA's at 25-100% higher salaries than they would BA's with two more years' experience? Certainly they would have figured out by now that this MBA stuff is all nonsense, no? Or is the wisdom of the great and powerful JustDude just that much greater than the collective brain trust of the captains of industry?


I wish TLS had a like button! An MBA just isn't management classes it encompasses all aspects of business. I'm sorry but having an increased knowledge of a field will never hinder you, but it's safe to say your own mouth might.

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby JustDude » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:51 am

there is a ton of MD/Masters in Music hating on this thread. there are several major benefits to the joint degree (which is why i am thinking of pursuing it if i am fortunate enough to be admitted):

#1. personal "brand". MDD grads are stereotyped as extremely smart and hard working but very book-ish, slightly autistic, and averse to any kind of art. Music MA grads are stereotyped as artistic types but not exactly the cream-of-the-crop intellectually. if you do the combo at a top school, you mitigate the weakness of each degree's brand and thus enhance the overall strength.

#2. exit opportunities from medicine. many people wish to transition after a few years from clinical work to playing guitar or doing some other art-related job, such as singing and dancing. it is still possible with just the MD, but the combination gives you career flexibility down the line. Hospitals do hire MD/music MA holders, and even give a higher starting salary or signing bonus. Hospitals are based on attrition so i am sure they would be happy to see a MD/music MA doctor leave after 3-4 years to go play guitar.

#3. More summers while in school. want to explore different fields? while in school, you can try out three recreational activities before you commit to one. for example, You can backpack one summer, travel to europe in another, save the africa during third. Its much more fun to be a student then do residency.

all that said, i can see that is definitely not for everyone. some people ARE art-averse, and have no interest in singing. others want to pursue medicine and would have no use in the ability to lateral down the line. but if the three things above appeal to you, and you manage to be admitted to a top school combo, it could very well be worth the 5th and 6th year of schooling to get a top Music MA.

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englawyer
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby englawyer » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:56 am

that is very cute. you are so clever! good luck with your plan.

Cestjustemoi
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Cestjustemoi » Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:53 pm

Often times a dual degree can really help you find a niche in a market. For instance a professor of mine represents CPA firms he has both his jd and his msa both were necessary for him. Besides school is fun!

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5ky
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby 5ky » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:19 pm

JustDude wrote:there is a ton of MD/Masters in Music hating on this thread. there are several major benefits to the joint degree (which is why i am thinking of pursuing it if i am fortunate enough to be admitted):

#1. personal "brand". MDD grads are stereotyped as extremely smart and hard working but very book-ish, slightly autistic, and averse to any kind of art. Music MA grads are stereotyped as artistic types but not exactly the cream-of-the-crop intellectually. if you do the combo at a top school, you mitigate the weakness of each degree's brand and thus enhance the overall strength.

#2. exit opportunities from medicine. many people wish to transition after a few years from clinical work to playing guitar or doing some other art-related job, such as singing and dancing. it is still possible with just the MD, but the combination gives you career flexibility down the line. Hospitals do hire MD/music MA holders, and even give a higher starting salary or signing bonus. Hospitals are based on attrition so i am sure they would be happy to see a MD/music MA doctor leave after 3-4 years to go play guitar.

#3. More summers while in school. want to explore different fields? while in school, you can try out three recreational activities before you commit to one. for example, You can backpack one summer, travel to europe in another, save the africa during third. Its much more fun to be a student then do residency.

all that said, i can see that is definitely not for everyone. some people ARE art-averse, and have no interest in singing. others want to pursue medicine and would have no use in the ability to lateral down the line. but if the three things above appeal to you, and you manage to be admitted to a top school combo, it could very well be worth the 5th and 6th year of schooling to get a top Music MA.


yes, law and business never overlap. never ever.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby icydash » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:14 am

To those of you against the JD/MBA, I sincerely think you're thinking too narrowly. You have decided you want to practice law, and that's all you're ever going to want to do, and so there's no need for another degree. The truth is a lot of people when entering law school have no idea if they'll want to practice law by the time law school ends (3 years is far away!), if they'll be good at it, or what actually practicing law is like. Getting the MBA opens a world of doors and exit options in-case the JD doesn't work out. A fair number of people lateral from law to business, where they take on more upper level management roles instead of legal roles, and the MBA really helps.

MBA classes are not just management classes. I really truely believe most of the "don't do it" posts are coming from people who have never taken a single business class or know what it's like, and are just going based on assumptions. There's a lot more to business classes then sitting around and learning how to treat your employees and drinking coffee, which is the vibe i get from most of the posters as their view of MBA classes. And trust me, a few of my friends who are in law school constantly tell me how much more "business" knowledge they have than me because they've taken legal classes on business/corporate law/accounting/etc...this is NOT the same knowledge...you do NOT know more...it's completely DIFFERENT information.... and whenever I try and work on startups with them, they always try and give me "advice" which is usually terrible / against anything anyone with basic business knowledge would know to do.

Finally, connections are everything in this world and 150+ captains of industry from a top MBA program can't hurt.

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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Cestjustemoi » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:53 pm

I agree totally with the posting above this! Many people who down business school and the MBA have never taken a class in their life. An MBA is not a joke degree especially if you concentrate in finance or accounting. Lawyers are taught to be accountants plain and simple.

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Ragged
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Re: LSAT AND GMAT?

Postby Ragged » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:13 pm

Cestjustemoi wrote:I agree totally with the posting above this! Many people who down business school and the MBA have never taken a class in their life. An MBA is not a joke degree especially if you concentrate in finance or accounting. Lawyers are taught to be accountants plain and simple.


Yes, but what if you already have an undergrad in accounting/finanace? Is MBA worth it then?




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