Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

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bceagles182
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby bceagles182 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:20 pm

romothesavior wrote:
bceagles182 wrote:"why do third and fourth tier law schools exist?" = "I'm upset that the legal market is saturated and I'm worried that someone at TTT school is going to get a job before I do"

Why else would you people care enough about it to complain about this everyday? I'm not buying that most of these people are actually concerned about the graduates of TTTs.


Actually, I am. I have a few friends who are going to make the plunge into a TTT, and I'm very concerned about their well-being. Despite my hints at the shitty job market and my attempts to get them onto TLS, they are still looking to forge ahead. And as I said above, their is an ethical issue involved here. What these schools are doing is just plain wrong.


Are you seriously expecting me to believe that you're trying to dissuade total strangers from making a decision that you feel is likely to be a mistake? Why don't you just go outside and tell the homeless guy on the side of the street not to take another drink? I'm pretty sure that he is equally likely to listen to what you have to say as a total stranger on here is when you tell them that they aren't smart enough to go to law school.

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kswiss
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby kswiss » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:41 pm

1. The AMA is not a good example. They are rushing to add schools right now to meet the demand for doctors. I know 3 people applying for med school right now, all of them have great stats, but the process is so arbitrary because of the extremely limited seats. Also...the medical field is not an extreme meritocracy like law. You get your M.D., you have a job. Most people equate all M.D.'s, no one cares where you went to school.

2. Too many schools? Yes. But I don't think the answer is to just lop off the bottom 30. Most T3s and T4s are filling niche markets, and those markets would suffer if they were lopped off.

3. The idea that people with jobs from T4s are outliers is ridiculous. My friend graduated from Cooley last year, middle of his class, nothing outstanding. Got a job in Portland. Well paying? No. Better than most recent UG grads? Sure. 45k isn't a lot, but it is more than your average English major is going to make coming out of school.

4. For those working in the public sector, which is significantly higher among certain t3 and t4s, law school cost is moot, since the government caps your loan payments and forgives them after 10 years if you work in government.

5. There is WAY too much emphasis on this board (and in law itself) on school. I view law as, again, a meritocracy. To think that a 3.9, 175 LSAT, candidate will outperform a 3.0 155 makes a lot of sense. To say that that same high merit student wouldn't also do well if he/she went to a T3 is stickier. I mean, whats better, depending on your goals. Outside of big law, top of the class + law review editor at Gonzaga might have far better job prospects than bottom 20% at UW. I think the natural ability of the student has far more to do with success than the name on your diploma. It just so happens that most people with high stats go to higher ranked schools.

But... rather than look at stats, the law culture has turned to what school you went to as a placeholder. Therefore UW > Gonzaga institutionally (obviously.) But someone with a lot of natural ability that graduates from Gonzaga (writing, argument, networking, people skills, etc) in the top of their class would be able to have a great interview over someone from UW that sucks at life.

6. In conclusion: People with 2.0 and 150 LSAT that think they can compete with a T1 grad are kidding themselves. But discounting all T3 and T4 grads as sub-par is idiotic.

qualster
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby qualster » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:56 pm

romothesavior wrote:
enigmaingr wrote:This position implies that if the ABA limited the number of accredited schools, T3 and T4 schools wouldn't exist. This is not the case, thanks to USNWR. Even if there were only 100 schools, about 25 of them would be T4 and subject to mockery by all those who attend the other 75 schools. Think about it: what would be the measure of a good program if USNWR didn't exist? How would you know if you attend the #1 or #186?


I don't know about this. Some of the smartest people I know are going to medical school at places with "mediocre" lay prestige. And I've checked the med school rankings, and their schools are not in the medical equivallent of law school's T1. Some of them are in the middle of the rankings or even down towards the bottom of the list.

Are they mocked by the people at the top? Are they unemployable after graduation? Hell no, because earning an MD is a damn hard thing to do. There are very few medical schools (and as a result, very few doctors), so being a doctor (even from a lesser known school) is still pretty prestigious and makes you very employable.

The USNWR rankings exist for undergrad, med school, etc., but the fervor with which they are followed for LS is a direct result of how many schools there are. If we had less schools and everyone in LS knew they would have some sort of job upon graduation, people would mellow out a bit and there wouldn't be this rabid concern about rankings.


I actually believe you are being genuine.

Here is a question: What is the ratio of law schools to residents in the US? How does this compare to Canada?

Canada has 16 law schools, with a population of 34 million. The US has about 206 ABA approved and conditionally approved law schools and about 305 million people. Of course, in the US, there are also a number of schools that aren't accredited that offer some sort of way to become bar certified on a state by state basis.

Canada has one law school for every 2.1 million people, while the US has one law school for every 1.5 million people. Pretty big disparity. If we were to run with an equivalent ratio, we'd probably be OK. 144+- law schools seems about right.

Is this a stupid comparison and am I way off base?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:13 pm

qualster wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
enigmaingr wrote:This position implies that if the ABA limited the number of accredited schools, T3 and T4 schools wouldn't exist. This is not the case, thanks to USNWR. Even if there were only 100 schools, about 25 of them would be T4 and subject to mockery by all those who attend the other 75 schools. Think about it: what would be the measure of a good program if USNWR didn't exist? How would you know if you attend the #1 or #186?


I don't know about this. Some of the smartest people I know are going to medical school at places with "mediocre" lay prestige. And I've checked the med school rankings, and their schools are not in the medical equivallent of law school's T1. Some of them are in the middle of the rankings or even down towards the bottom of the list.

Are they mocked by the people at the top? Are they unemployable after graduation? Hell no, because earning an MD is a damn hard thing to do. There are very few medical schools (and as a result, very few doctors), so being a doctor (even from a lesser known school) is still pretty prestigious and makes you very employable.

The USNWR rankings exist for undergrad, med school, etc., but the fervor with which they are followed for LS is a direct result of how many schools there are. If we had less schools and everyone in LS knew they would have some sort of job upon graduation, people would mellow out a bit and there wouldn't be this rabid concern about rankings.


I actually believe you are being genuine.

Here is a question: What is the ratio of law schools to residents in the US? How does this compare to Canada?

Canada has 16 law schools, with a population of 34 million. The US has about 206 ABA approved and conditionally approved law schools and about 305 million people. Of course, in the US, there are also a number of schools that aren't accredited that offer some sort of way to become bar certified on a state by state basis.

Canada has one law school for every 2.1 million people, while the US has one law school for every 1.5 million people. Pretty big disparity. If we were to run with an equivalent ratio, we'd probably be OK. 144+- law schools seems about right.

Is this a stupid comparison and am I way off base?


The reason why medical school choice isnt mocked...doesnt have to do w/ their being fewer med schools (or rather them being smaller class sizes, there are still almost just as many med schools as law ones), but rather that they are able to place into a good residency and become a doctor regardless of the school rank (for the most part)

why? because it is a much more rigorous program that weeds out early, during, and after

a lot of ppl start as premed but few make it. many drop out of medical school. etc.

law is EXTREMELY easy to break into. have a high GPA and get a high LSAT score. practically no one drops out of law school (relatively speaking). if i were going to become a doctor, id care a LOT less about rankings for the above stated reasons.

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Burgette
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby Burgette » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:06 pm

njskatchmo wrote:Where do you think divorce lawyers and traffic lawyers come from?

^
True

I have a friend who is a divorce attorney from a 3rd Tier. She makes quite a bit of money too.

Also, I'll be in the minority by saying this but I think it's entirely possible to be a good lawyer without doing well on the LSAT or getting a good GPA; not a good law student per say, but a good lawyer.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby BruceBarr » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:09 pm

I'm ending this.


I know Cooley grads who make six figures.


That's why.

too old for this sh*
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby too old for this sh* » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:50 pm

Burgette wrote:
Also, I'll be in the minority by saying this but I think it's entirely possible to be a good lawyer without doing well on the LSAT or getting a good GPA; not a good law student per say, but a good lawyer.


Absolutely possible and would not be unexpected, especially with the non-traditional students.

I'd venture to say that my last two years of undergrad work (which came as I neared 30 and was working full-time) likely offer a far better measure of potential to perform in school than work performed close to 30 years ago and I can easily say that the three years of law school will do little to better prepare me to do exactly the same type of work I currently perform (with the exception of it being able to have MY signature attached to it instead of someone elses).

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jdhopeful11
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby jdhopeful11 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:52 pm

BruceBarr wrote:I'm ending this.


I know Cooley grads who make six figures.


That's why.



+1

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JCougar
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby JCougar » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:13 pm

There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.

qualster
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby qualster » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:32 pm

JCougar wrote:There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.


Good point, Jcoug. There's some sound Palouse logic for ya.

Still, I'd like to know how many grads per year we churn out Vs Canada, on a per capita basis. I think this is relevant.

solidsnake
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby solidsnake » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:35 pm

Because people who are dumb enough to get <150 on their LSAT are apparently not smart enough to realize they shouldn't go to law school.

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im_blue
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:44 pm

qualster wrote:
JCougar wrote:There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.


Good point, Jcoug. There's some sound Palouse logic for ya.

Still, I'd like to know how many grads per year we churn out Vs Canada, on a per capita basis. I think this is relevant.


U.S. has about 45,000 graduates per year for 304 million people (1 per 6,800).
Canada has about 3000 graduates per year for 33 million people (1 per 11,000).
So the U.S. has 63% more new lawyers per capita than Canada.

Canada has 1 lawyer for every 421 people, compared to 265 in the U.S. (59% more).

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php
--LinkRemoved--

qualster
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby qualster » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:54 pm

im_blue wrote:
qualster wrote:
JCougar wrote:There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.


Good point, Jcoug. There's some sound Palouse logic for ya.

Still, I'd like to know how many grads per year we churn out Vs Canada, on a per capita basis. I think this is relevant.


U.S. has about 45,000 graduates per year for 304 million people (1 per 6,800).
Canada has about 3000 graduates per year for 33 million people (1 per 11,000).
So the U.S. has 63% more new lawyers per capita than Canada.

Canada has 1 lawyer for every 421 people, compared to 265 in the U.S. (59% more).

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php
--LinkRemoved--


There we go. So yeah, not that we should necessarily follow Canada's lead, but it seems that we have too many lawyers. Even though schools aren't increasing class sizes, we probably could do without about 40 schools or so. Maybe more.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:56 pm

JCougar wrote:There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.


Well lets check this out

--ImageRemoved--

This graph is law school graduates per million people by year. Yes it has not grown significantly in the past 15 years. But look at how many there were per capita in the 70's. What you have is a far far greater number of people entering the field than retirement + economic expansion can handle. So just because the number of law students per million hasn't increased in the past decade doesn't mean we're on an even keel. It probably just means that the market has been getting slowly more saturated at a constant rate for the past 15 years.

also: sorry for the unnecessarily big graph

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:01 pm

I won't believe any of this until I see more math. Lots more math. And some pie charts too. 3-D charts if available, multi-color of course.

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:18 pm

Not all TTTs are created equal. Some cheap state schools in the midwest and south are TTTs, yet are dirt cheap for in-state residents and they place fairly well in state. For example, Arkansas has exactly two law schools. Both are state run and place well in the state; they are both "TTTs" by USNWR standards.

I think the discussion needs to be: Why does the ABA keep accrediting private law schools which charge outrageous tuition? I would have no problem shutting down every single private law school outside of the top 100.

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im_blue
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:22 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:Not all TTTs are created equal. Some cheap state schools in the midwest and south are TTTs, yet are dirt cheap for in-state residents and they place fairly well in state. For example, Arkansas has exactly two law schools. Both are state run and place well in the state; they are both "TTTs" by USNWR standards.

I think the discussion needs to be: Why does the ABA keep accrediting private law schools which charge outrageous tuition? I would have no problem shutting down every single private law school outside of the top 100.


TITCR. If a state truly needs local law schools to produce lawyers, they should be cheap publics.

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:38 pm

im_blue wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:Not all TTTs are created equal. Some cheap state schools in the midwest and south are TTTs, yet are dirt cheap for in-state residents and they place fairly well in state. For example, Arkansas has exactly two law schools. Both are state run and place well in the state; they are both "TTTs" by USNWR standards.

I think the discussion needs to be: Why does the ABA keep accrediting private law schools which charge outrageous tuition? I would have no problem shutting down every single private law school outside of the top 100.


TITCR. If a state truly needs local law schools to produce lawyers, they should be cheap publics.


Exactly. There was an interview with the Dean of NCCU (dirt cheap public in NC) where he stated that a law school is cheap to run, and that he operates a 'no frills' operation. Tuition at NCCU is something like 8K/yr. If a state needs more lawyers, the answer is to direct a local state university to open up a law school. There is absolutely no reason to allow private schools to open up and charge students up to 4x more than a public for the same credential. That hurts the profession.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby BruceBarr » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:19 pm

qualster wrote:
im_blue wrote:
qualster wrote:
JCougar wrote:There's so much massive fail on this thread, I don't know where to begin.

Do people realize that, although the number of schools has increased, the number of graduates has barely inched up over the last decade? Many schools have cut class sizes to increase their rankings, etc.

It doesn't matter one fig how many law schools there are. It matters how many graduates total are churned out each year. That's a number everyone seems to be ignoring. Also, this number has probably not increased faster than population growth over the last 10 years.


Good point, Jcoug. There's some sound Palouse logic for ya.

Still, I'd like to know how many grads per year we churn out Vs Canada, on a per capita basis. I think this is relevant.


U.S. has about 45,000 graduates per year for 304 million people (1 per 6,800).
Canada has about 3000 graduates per year for 33 million people (1 per 11,000).
So the U.S. has 63% more new lawyers per capita than Canada.

Canada has 1 lawyer for every 421 people, compared to 265 in the U.S. (59% more).

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php
--LinkRemoved--


There we go. So yeah, not that we should necessarily follow Canada's lead, but it seems that we have too many lawyers. Even though schools aren't increasing class sizes, we probably could do without about 40 schools or so. Maybe more.



Worst logic ever if you know anything about Canadian crime figures.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:21 pm

BruceBarr wrote:Worst logic ever if you know anything about Canadian crime figures.

I certainly didn't request anymore Canadian math for the equation.

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BruceBarr
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby BruceBarr » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:24 pm

And... no. We can not afford to get rid of schools. Why are there so many people going to law school? Because a law school plaque on your wall does more than make you an attorney. A person goes to med school to become a doctor. A person goes to law school to become a lawyer, teacher, politician, businessman, entrepreneur, etc.

There is a perfect number of law schools that are ABA accredited right now. In the end I think the American Bar Association knows better than a bunch of 0L's who spend their Thursday nights bitching about how awesome their knowledge basis is... myself included.

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:55 pm

BruceBarr wrote:Worst logic ever if you know anything about Canadian crime figures.


Perhaps you should educate us.

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im_blue
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:59 pm

BruceBarr wrote:And... no. We can not afford to get rid of schools. Why are there so many people going to law school? Because a law school plaque on your wall does more than make you an attorney. A person goes to med school to become a doctor. A person goes to law school to become a lawyer, teacher, politician, businessman, entrepreneur, etc.


TINTCR

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im_blue
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby im_blue » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:00 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:Worst logic ever if you know anything about Canadian crime figures.


Perhaps you should educate us.


He's probably referring to the much lower crime rate in Canada, which requires fewer lawyers to deal with it.

sibley
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Re: Why do Third Tier and Fourth Tier Law Schools even exist?

Postby sibley » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:02 pm

im_blue wrote:
BruceBarr wrote:And... no. We can not afford to get rid of schools. Why are there so many people going to law school? Because a law school plaque on your wall does more than make you an attorney. A person goes to med school to become a doctor. A person goes to law school to become a lawyer, teacher, politician, businessman, entrepreneur, etc.


TINTCR



What do yall think of people who can't get into med school in the states so they go to the caribbean? I have two acquaintances doing this... one is married to a friend of mine, the other is as-good-as dating my ex boyfriend. One's in Grand Bahama, the other's in Granada. Because they just wanted med school so dern bad, I guess.




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