NYT: Surge in # of med schools

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steppenwolf
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NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby steppenwolf » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:30 pm

This isn't entirely relevant, but since many of us gripe and groan about the ABA being all too eager to approve new law schools...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/educa ... ls.html?hp

There's even the requisite potshot against lawyers at the very end.

gators88
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby gators88 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:17 pm

I don't think med schools will ever get to the point where an MD is as devalued as a JD has become. For one, the rigorous undergrad track prohibits people from applying to med school for lack of a better thing to do. I have dozens of friends graduating undergrad this year who didn't decide to apply to law school until December or Jan of their senior year.

Clever_User_Name
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:44 pm

gators88 wrote:I don't think med schools will ever get to the point where an MD is as devalued as a JD has become. For one, the rigorous undergrad track prohibits people from applying to med school for lack of a better thing to do. I have dozens of friends graduating undergrad this year who didn't decide to apply to law school until December or Jan of their senior year.


This. Med school is not something one can decide to do on a whim. There are two years of pre-reqs involved which prevents that from happening. Actually, I don't think it would be a bad idea for law schools to develop some pre-reqs for this same reason. Anything to slow down the wave would be helpful. IMO

EDIT: Not to mention that there is a shortage of MD's, unlike the oversupply of JD's.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Vincent Vega » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:48 pm

I would have considered med school if I didn't have to work with corpses or old people.

Esc
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Esc » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:01 pm

steppenwolf wrote:This isn't entirely relevant, but since many of us gripe and groan about the ABA being all too eager to approve new law schools...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/educa ... ls.html?hp

There's even the requisite potshot against lawyers at the very end.


A lot of doctors go into the business for the power trip, aside from the $$$, and they hate being questioned. As when they tell a protesting patient with pneumonia that he is fine and doesn't need antibiotics, or when they guilt trip and intimidate health people to get their every orifice probed so the doctor can buy a new Jag.

And doctors REALLY hate being held accountable for their mistakes.

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booboo
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby booboo » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:04 pm

Esc wrote:
steppenwolf wrote:This isn't entirely relevant, but since many of us gripe and groan about the ABA being all too eager to approve new law schools...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/15/educa ... ls.html?hp

There's even the requisite potshot against lawyers at the very end.


A lot of doctors go into the business for the power trip, aside from the $$$, and they hate being questioned. As when they tell a protesting patient with pneumonia that he is fine and doesn't need antibiotics, or when they guilt trip and intimidate health people to get their every orifice probed so the doctor can buy a new Jag.

And doctors REALLY hate being held accountable for their mistakes.


Not sure what that had to do with the article... but I still LOL'd.

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chadwick218
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:05 pm

Although this is concerning from a quality point-of-view, unlike the ABA, at least the world needs more doctors (serving as a possible justification).

jelizabeth88
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby jelizabeth88 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:10 pm

one of my parents is MD and the other is a historian and it is no coincidence that all of my siblings and I are staying as far away as possible from med school. I had a lot of the required course load, but it's not worth the hellish years of schooling and boring ass (in my opinion) job. Also, I don't like blood or needles. That's actually the biggest reason, who am I kidding.

But yea, truth is, doctors are in demand and lawyers aren't (nor are history majors, for that matter). wahwahwahhh.

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existenz
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby existenz » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:11 pm

I think it is long overdue that they open more medical schools. I know two people who have had to go to the Caribbean for medical school because there aren't enough schools here in the U.S. Even with how difficult it is to qualify for medical school, thousands of great candidates are left out every year.

The article makes the suspicious assumption that more doctors means health care costs will go up, which doesn't make much sense to me. A larger supply of doctors would help control salaries, I would think. To the extent that it means more people will be able to visit a doctor, I think that's a good thing.

The article also mentions the need for more nurse practitioners. This is also quite true, though the AMA has been trying to prevent NPs from having enough autonomy in billing for them to become a viable force in controlling health care costs.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Vincent Vega » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:13 pm

I'm an econ man at heart - when supply goes up, costs go down. Therefore, all other things equal, if there are more doctors, healthcare costs should decrease.

conformalgeom
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby conformalgeom » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:54 pm

jelizabeth88 wrote:one of my parents is MD ... and it is no coincidence that all of my siblings and I are staying as far away as possible from med school.


Welcome to the club :D. In my case I decided that I really didn't want to pursue a career track in which I would be in my low to mid thirties by the time I could practice my chosen specialty(the only field of medicine that interested me was surgery). At least doctors can always get a high-paying job, even in this economy.

As for the article, I agree with those that state such a change is needed in the medical school system. As our population continues to age due to reduced birth rates our need for doctors will increase even faster than it is currently.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby pleasetryagain » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:24 pm

The idea that more doctors will lower health care costs is false. In economic theory it should (and therefore decrease quality as doctors try to undercut competition) but it wont. Its kind of like pizzerias.. by this logic the more pizzerias that exist in a town, the lower the price will be. But pizza (of equal quality) costs the same in NY/NJ where there are tons of pizzerias as it does in Tennessee where there are very few. It costs what it costs because that's what they say it costs and thats what people are willing to pay. If you want to pay less you are going to get lesser quality, (Little Skeezers Hot n' Ready $5 pie). People are willing to compromise on their pizza quality but arent as willing to compromise on the quality of their healthcare.

Does that make sense? It did when I was typing it but now Im not so sure.

Edit: Also, NPs and PAs should really stop calling themselves "Dr." When I make an appointment with a Doctor, and pay to see a Doctor, I want to see a Doctor, not someone who took 3 years of science/nursing classes.

narkizopoint
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby narkizopoint » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:33 pm

pleasetryagain wrote:The idea that more doctors will lower health care costs is false. In economic theory it should (and therefore decrease quality as doctors try to undercut competition) but it wont. Its kind of like pizzerias.. by this logic the more pizzerias that exist in a town, the lower the price will be. But pizza (of equal quality) costs the same in NY/NJ where there are tons of pizzerias as it does in Tennessee where there are very few. It costs what it costs because that's what they say it costs and thats what people are willing to pay. If you want to pay less you are going to get lesser quality, (Little Skeezers Hot n' Ready $5 pie). People are willing to compromise on their pizza quality but arent as willing to compromise on the quality of their healthcare.


Except lower quality healthcare is better than no healthcare...

Clever_User_Name
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:34 pm

pleasetryagain wrote:The idea that more doctors will lower health care costs is false. In economic theory it should (and therefore decrease quality as doctors try to undercut competition) but it wont. Its kind of like pizzerias.. by this logic the more pizzerias that exist in a town, the lower the price will be. But pizza (of equal quality) costs the same in NY/NJ where there are tons of pizzerias as it does in Tennessee where there are very few. It costs what it costs because that's what they say it costs and thats what people are willing to pay. If you want to pay less you are going to get lesser quality, (Little Skeezers Hot n' Ready $5 pie). People are willing to compromise on their pizza quality but arent as willing to compromise on the quality of their healthcare.

Does that make sense? It did when I was typing it but now Im not so sure.

Edit: Also, NPs and PAs should really stop calling themselves "Dr." When I make an appointment with a Doctor, and pay to see a Doctor, I want to see a Doctor, not someone who took 3 years of science/nursing classes.


If any PA's or NP's said they were a doctor in a clinical setting that would be illegal.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby pleasetryagain » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Clever_User_Name wrote:If any PA's or NP's said they were a doctor in a clinical setting that would be illegal.


Happens all the time. Purely anecdotal but I've had it happen to me several times and have several family members in the medical profession that take issue with it. I now always make sure they are MDs/DOs before confirming. Further, the DNP degree blurs the legal line since technically they are a "doctor".

Clever_User_Name
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:47 pm

pleasetryagain wrote:
Clever_User_Name wrote:If any PA's or NP's said they were a doctor in a clinical setting that would be illegal.


Happens all the time. Purely anecdotal but I've had it happen to me several times and have several family members in the medical profession that take issue with it. I now always make sure they are MDs/DOs before confirming. Further, the DNP degree blurs the legal line since technically they are a "doctor".


I think NP's, and even more so PA's, have their place in health care. I too have family in the health field, and from what I hear the DNP is a bit of a joke. If I had a choice I would go with PA, since they follow the medical model of training and often are in class with medical students.

It really depends on what I was going for. If it was for something rather simple I would have no problem. However, if it was for something serious I would want a real doctor.

03121202698008
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:48 pm

Clever_User_Name wrote:
pleasetryagain wrote:The idea that more doctors will lower health care costs is false. In economic theory it should (and therefore decrease quality as doctors try to undercut competition) but it wont. Its kind of like pizzerias.. by this logic the more pizzerias that exist in a town, the lower the price will be. But pizza (of equal quality) costs the same in NY/NJ where there are tons of pizzerias as it does in Tennessee where there are very few. It costs what it costs because that's what they say it costs and thats what people are willing to pay. If you want to pay less you are going to get lesser quality, (Little Skeezers Hot n' Ready $5 pie). People are willing to compromise on their pizza quality but arent as willing to compromise on the quality of their healthcare.

Does that make sense? It did when I was typing it but now Im not so sure.

Edit: Also, NPs and PAs should really stop calling themselves "Dr." When I make an appointment with a Doctor, and pay to see a Doctor, I want to see a Doctor, not someone who took 3 years of science/nursing classes.


If any PA's or NP's said they were a doctor in a clinical setting that would be illegal.


The military does this in our hospitals all the time. They call them Dr. and make them your "primary care physician"...but many are PAs.

Clever_User_Name
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Clever_User_Name » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:55 pm

blhoward2 wrote:
Clever_User_Name wrote:
pleasetryagain wrote:The idea that more doctors will lower health care costs is false. In economic theory it should (and therefore decrease quality as doctors try to undercut competition) but it wont. Its kind of like pizzerias.. by this logic the more pizzerias that exist in a town, the lower the price will be. But pizza (of equal quality) costs the same in NY/NJ where there are tons of pizzerias as it does in Tennessee where there are very few. It costs what it costs because that's what they say it costs and thats what people are willing to pay. If you want to pay less you are going to get lesser quality, (Little Skeezers Hot n' Ready $5 pie). People are willing to compromise on their pizza quality but arent as willing to compromise on the quality of their healthcare.

Does that make sense? It did when I was typing it but now Im not so sure.

Edit: Also, NPs and PAs should really stop calling themselves "Dr." When I make an appointment with a Doctor, and pay to see a Doctor, I want to see a Doctor, not someone who took 3 years of science/nursing classes.


If any PA's or NP's said they were a doctor in a clinical setting that would be illegal.


The military does this in our hospitals all the time. They call them Dr. and make them your "primary care physician"...but many are PAs.


Well, I may be wrong. I am just going off of what my doc told me when I inquired about it. I do know that the military plays by its own rules though, as I'm sure you know.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby Fancy Pants » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:12 pm

Halibut6 wrote:I'm an econ man at heart - when supply goes up, costs go down. Therefore, all other things equal, if there are more doctors, healthcare costs should decrease.


Not when the vast majority of healthcare costs are fixed. In order for costs to go down, the person providing the service would have to be setting the price - which doctors don't do most of the time. Plus, healthcare costs are dependent on much more than just the price of the doctor's service.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: NYT: Surge in # of med schools

Postby pleasetryagain » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:16 pm

Fancy Pants wrote:
Halibut6 wrote:I'm an econ man at heart - when supply goes up, costs go down. Therefore, all other things equal, if there are more doctors, healthcare costs should decrease.


Not when the vast majority of healthcare costs are fixed. In order for costs to go down, the person providing the service would have to be setting the price - which doctors don't do most of the time. Plus, healthcare costs are dependent on much more than just the price of the doctor's service.


Correct. We have what the doctor charges, what the insurance company pays, and what you pay. Also, as more and more doctors stop taking medicare/medicaid due to partial reimbursements, they have to make that money back on other patients or take a QOL cut which wont happen. Even further lab fees, tech fees, facility fees etc - which make up a large portion of medical bills - wont change.




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