Do you have the stomach for law?

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SandyC877
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby SandyC877 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:57 pm

arklogic wrote:Image


That's a dollar bill. He must be a TTT grad.

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big_blue79
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby big_blue79 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:34 pm

Borhas wrote:With that said, our society has created a highly sophisticated set of rules in order to prosper. What may appear to be immoral in an isolated incident (defending a rapist) may actually be completely moral on the big scale (allowing everyone to have decent representation in court). We will be cogs in the machine, our primary duty is to make sure the machine runs smoothly, other issues will be secondary.


Very well said.

keg411
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby keg411 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:51 pm

ConMan345 wrote:Certainly everyone deserves a defense, but it does get a bit slippery when someone confesses (murder, rape, etc.) to you, the attorney, and doesn't get charged solely because of your advice.


Meh. You have to do your job. If the person doesn't get charged, it is very very likely that the police performed and illegal search and these need to prevented to protect everyone.

But yeah, if my job was to represent someone or some company that was morally unsavory, I may have a bit of a problem with it, but I'd do it to the best of my ability anyway. My morals don't really stand in the way of my job. (Believe me, in my line of work already I work with some people and some companies that are unsavory. You learn to get over it quickly.)

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Veyron
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:23 am

Joga Bonito wrote: even a large nyc firms, are generally evil or wrong or similar to what drug dealers do, but on occasion and in certain cases (egh egh defending Philip Morris and other big tobacco companies, for example) they can be.


You've got a problem with Nick Nailer, you've got a problem with me, capish?

legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:24 pm

James Bond wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:You of all people should know I do bro

--ImageRemoved--


Anyone else think those really aren't "good abs?"


There were good enough for me. mmmmm....lol!

legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:31 pm

reasonabledoubt wrote:You heard me. Has anyone else given much thought to what happens when you have to stare your morality, conviction, sense of right-and-wrong (and more) right in the face and have to kick it?

In other words, what happens in the future when (for example) you realize your entire being might be to ensure the bad guy wins or at least doesn't lose because he/she/it is paying your firm money, which in turn pays you.

This is a generalized question because there is of course hundreds of different ways our system of law is applied as well as the lawyers function within it, but it is still worth asking. Do you think you'll have a "limit" in terms of what you simply won't breach when it comes to being a human vs. doing your job?

I won't draw out this hypothetical example... but just think of the figurative rapist that your firm is defending confiding in you that "she was asking for it" etc. Her case against him is weak for whatever reason and your role is to make it even weaker. This is your job. You know he's a rapist. How do you justify your work in your mind realizing the better you are at doing your job, the more likely a rapist will be found not guilty? Do you have the stomach for law? Discuss....


Aren't lawyers allowed to back out if they have a conflict of interest or some type of serious inability to represent a client?

I'd be backing out from a confirmed rapist (who, if he's tellign me in private, has likely pled NOT GUILTY) on the basis of him LYING to counsel.

And it's against my religious beliefs to defend rapists. Assuming i think of what he did as rape. I do not consider a 20 year old and a 17 year old sleeping together as "rape." So yeah, it all depends on how i see the alleged rapist and if it was one of those cases like Mike Tyson where the girl goes to his apartment 3am in her negligee or whatever...yes, she's asking for trouble and found it, i don't think it would bother me to represent him. I would have to tell him to watch that attitude and choice of words in court though cause here in america whether she writes a note requesting it or not, it's against the law.

Not everything that breaks a law is morally wrong. Cause there is a law for everything, you're bound to be breaking one just sitting here at this computer typing. Just like there are legal behaviours that are still morally wrong.

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Sogui
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby Sogui » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:45 pm

Lawyers are the very embodiment of something very few other professions have.

We advocate on behalf of a party in a dispute with that lacks clear answers. There must be lawyers on both sides and inevitably one group ends up advocating on behalf of the "losing" party or the party that was deemed in violation of the law/contract/etc...

But that doesn't mean anything, because they still needed advocacy and we wouldn't live in a "nation of laws" or a "just world" if there weren't lawyers available to represent both sides of every case (of course it isn't perfect).

The only time in my mind that it is ever repugnant for a lawyer to advocate on someone's behalf is when the lawyer is made known of the truth and actively works to conceal it.

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James Bond
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby James Bond » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:46 pm

legalized wrote:
James Bond wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:You of all people should know I do bro

--ImageRemoved--


Anyone else think those really aren't "good abs?"


There were good enough for me. mmmmm....lol!


get better standards

legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:03 pm

James Bond wrote:
legalized wrote:
James Bond wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:You of all people should know I do bro

--ImageRemoved--


Anyone else think those really aren't "good abs?"


There were good enough for me. mmmmm....lol!


get better standards


My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****

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James Bond
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby James Bond » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:07 pm

legalized wrote:My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


I love this response for SO many reasons :lol:

legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:10 pm

James Bond wrote:
legalized wrote:My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


I love this response for SO many reasons :lol:


list some.

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pamcasso
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby pamcasso » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:34 pm

reasonabledoubt wrote:You heard me. Has anyone else given much thought to what happens when you have to stare your morality, conviction, sense of right-and-wrong (and more) right in the face and have to kick it?

In other words, what happens in the future when (for example) you realize your entire being might be to ensure the bad guy wins or at least doesn't lose because he/she/it is paying your firm money, which in turn pays you.

This is a generalized question because there is of course hundreds of different ways our system of law is applied as well as the lawyers function within it, but it is still worth asking. Do you think you'll have a "limit" in terms of what you simply won't breach when it comes to being a human vs. doing your job?

I won't draw out this hypothetical example... but just think of the figurative rapist that your firm is defending confiding in you that "she was asking for it" etc. Her case against him is weak for whatever reason and your role is to make it even weaker. This is your job. You know he's a rapist. How do you justify your work in your mind realizing the better you are at doing your job, the more likely a rapist will be found not guilty? Do you have the stomach for law? Discuss....


theres no way. i would quit my job and bag groceries before i let myself become a part of something like that

oneforship
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby oneforship » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:39 pm

pollaclc wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote:Yeah that makes sense...but I'm not defending somebody who I know is a rapist if they wanna lie and plead not guilty when they know they're guilty or it seems clear to me that they are.

+1


What happens when you don't have a choice?

scionb4
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby scionb4 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:44 pm

I have the stomach for law, but not the liver. I don't know if I can handle all the stress-releasing drinking I'll be doing.

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kittenmittons
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby kittenmittons » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:45 pm

legalized wrote:My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


Shameless JB pics trolling

scionb4
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby scionb4 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:47 pm

Sogui wrote:Lawyers are the very embodiment of something very few other professions have.

We advocate on behalf of a party in a dispute with that lacks clear answers. There must be lawyers on both sides and inevitably one group ends up advocating on behalf of the "losing" party or the party that was deemed in violation of the law/contract/etc...

But that doesn't mean anything, because they still needed advocacy and we wouldn't live in a "nation of laws" or a "just world" if there weren't lawyers available to represent both sides of every case (of course it isn't perfect).

The only time in my mind that it is ever repugnant for a lawyer to advocate on someone's behalf is when the lawyer is made known of the truth and actively works to conceal it.


So . . . . . pretty much 2/3 of all criminal defense trials?

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:52 pm

To have to defend this sick child rapist would put me in a moral conundrum to say the least:

--ImageRemoved--

To cheat, or not to cheat on my wife...........

greatfool
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby greatfool » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:26 pm

These discussions always suffer from what I call the "Law and Order Problem" which is that in the public mind law consists of (1) crimes (2) that go to a jury trial (3) where the resolution is acquittal or conviction with serious jail time. That kind of stuff is probably 1% of law. Before I studied law I was just as susceptible to this fallacy, and not out of ignorance but because that kind of law has such great dramatic value that it dominates everything else.

For example, the general non lawyer idea of a moral dilemma discussed here is something like - I am defending someone I know is a violent, dangerous rapist and I can get him acquitted and there will be no justice for the victim! If I do it I will get $$$ and make a name for myself, but he might go on to do it again.

99% of actual lawyer moral dilemmas are probably like - Company A has filed a request for production of documents from company B, whom you are defending. As you review document #43823201x you notice that is unclear whether it is covered by their request, and it hurts your case slightly. Your boss tells you to lose it. If you do it company A will get a little less of the money company B owes it. No one else has a clue that this document exists or will ever know if you shred it.

Moral dilemmas are not hard because they ask you to make egregious violations of social norms. They are hard because you have to ask yourself, can I be a little dishonest to make sure I keep my job or win my case when no one but me will ever know?

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Joga Bonito
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby Joga Bonito » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:43 pm

Veyron wrote:
Joga Bonito wrote: even a large nyc firms, are generally evil or wrong or similar to what drug dealers do, but on occasion and in certain cases (egh egh defending Philip Morris and other big tobacco companies, for example) they can be.


You've got a problem with Nick Nailer, you've got a problem with me, capish?


Look here, I'm not looking for any beef...but uhhh...if so... I'll just say "cosa nostra," I got a couple a hard-on's with a suitcase and I'm the boss of this administration... if you know what I mean (in mobspeak see http://italian.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/ ... speak.html for translation)

Image

legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:55 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
legalized wrote:My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


Shameless JB pics trolling


lol not what i was thinking but funny anyway.

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JordynAsh
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby JordynAsh » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:02 pm

BLi wrote:if he told me he did it and i was feeling randy, maybe i would ask him for all the details, and then give all the scoop to my pretty friend over at the prosecution's office, telling her where to find the evidence needed to convict him.
j.k.

if some guy wanted me to represent him and then started telling me he was guilty (say, of rape), then i would stop him here. because it would be almost impossible to represent him and not introduce testimony or evidence which i knew were false, which is illegal. and i ain't going down for no rapist.
if he was really randy on telling me he did it, i would suggest that perhaps he should plead guilty.

but if he did not want to, if he wanted to plead non-guilty, well . . . by telling me he's made it difficult for me to put him on the stand and ask for his testimony/if he did it without crossing legal boundaries. . . so there would be a definite handicap in the prosecution's favor. yet, i would like to think that i would still give him the best legal representation i could.

unless i was a big-wig partner. then i'd throw him out on his ass because it's my prerogative.


Despite the irrelevance, I find it necessary to tell you how much your avatar rocks. Damn bear ate me every time, regardless of skiing excellence.

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englawyer
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby englawyer » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:09 pm

legalized wrote:
My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


legalized, please choose:

Candidate A: HYS JD student. Looks wise: 6/10, nothing special in this department, but probably headed for big success in life.
Candidate B: TTT JD student. Hot body, 10/10 looks wise. also very charming.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:17 pm

Big Law starting salary, $160,000.00/year plus bonus!

--ImageRemoved--

ChrisC
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby ChrisC » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:26 pm

Everyone is entitled to fair and zealous representation.




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legalized
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Re: Do you have the stomach for law?

Postby legalized » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:32 pm

englawyer wrote:
legalized wrote:
My abs look worse than that. I DO have better standards, thank you.

We don't all need, want, or deserve a 6 pack guy. If my abs get better looking than that, then i might be as snobby as you (and i seriously doubt your abs look better than that).

My standards focus more on the internal anyway and therefore are way better than any physical lust I carry on with in this thread. Room for error on external. Not major error, but some error.

****ALSO why is a guy telling a female what type of man-body to like? Stop sounding so gay. Yuck.****


legalized, please choose:

Candidate A: HYS JD student. Looks wise: 6/10, nothing special in this department, but probably headed for big success in life.
Candidate B: TTT JD student. Hot body, 10/10 looks wise. also very charming.


Need more info on Candidate B's possibilities of success? TTT doesn't = failure in life so why did you only list the HYS student's chances?

I have a godbrother who went to Howard and then straight to Cravath.

I have friends who went to TTT's and work now in it's local area (or back home through luck and connections) living nice lives.

I wouldn't mind the status for myself, but that's just me. It's not really NECESSARY.




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