HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
CordeliusX
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:48 pm

HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby CordeliusX » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:37 pm

I'm curious if there is a strong correlation here. Do you think most HYP folks are able to get into HYS? How would the student bodies (as a whole, not accounting for actual age differences) compare to each other in terms of smartness, ability etc. I imagine undergrad has more issues with legacy, slackers, etc. detracting from student quality.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby englawyer » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:40 pm

CordeliusX wrote:I'm curious if there is a strong correlation here. Do you think most HYP folks are able to get into HYS? How would the student bodies (as a whole, not accounting for actual age differences) compare to each other in terms of smartness, ability etc. I imagine undergrad has more issues with legacy, slackers, etc. detracting from student quality.


over half of HYP u-grad applicants have no shot at HYS law schools, so I think they are quite different student bodies in favor of the law schools, at least in smartness. we can see this because H u-grad has the highest median LSAT in the nation, at 166. that means half score below that, and therefore have no shot at the big 3.

HYP u-grads might be more "well rounded", active in clubs, and better connected though based on the admissions criteria.

User avatar
los blancos
Posts: 7118
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby los blancos » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:41 pm

CordeliusX wrote:Do you think most HYP folks are able to get into HYS?


No, they're not.

User avatar
im_blue
Posts: 3276
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:53 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby im_blue » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:22 pm

Certainly not, with a median GPA/LSAT of around 3.6/166, I would say the bottom half of HYP can't even get T14.

User avatar
DoctorNick189
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:21 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby DoctorNick189 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:24 pm

<-- one of the former, not of the latter.

ilovethelsat
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby ilovethelsat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:44 pm

Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby RVP11 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:47 pm

englawyer wrote:
CordeliusX wrote:I'm curious if there is a strong correlation here. Do you think most HYP folks are able to get into HYS? How would the student bodies (as a whole, not accounting for actual age differences) compare to each other in terms of smartness, ability etc. I imagine undergrad has more issues with legacy, slackers, etc. detracting from student quality.


over half of HYP u-grad applicants have no shot at HYS law schools, so I think they are quite different student bodies in favor of the law schools, at least in smartness. we can see this because H u-grad has the highest median LSAT in the nation, at 166. that means half score below that, and therefore have no shot at the big 3.

HYP u-grads might be more "well rounded", active in clubs, and better connected though based on the admissions criteria.


166 is the mean, mayn. I'd bet you over half are scoring above 166.

User avatar
tomhobbes
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:20 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby tomhobbes » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:47 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?


Or is the group of Harvard students who take the LSAT substantially different from the average Harvard student?

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:48 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.

User avatar
Gamecubesupreme
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:48 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?


As racist as it might sound, the slightly lower LSAT score might be due to the lack of Asians bumping up the LSAT average.

Say what you will, Asians dominate the SAT because they know how to write standardized tests. There are exceptions though.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby RVP11 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:50 pm

Gamecubesupreme wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?


As racist as it might sound, the slightly lower LSAT score might be due to the lack of Asians bumping up the LSAT average.

Say what you will, Asians dominate the SAT because they know how to write standardized tests. There are exceptions though.


Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

And what are you talking about "lack of Asians"?

User avatar
Gamecubesupreme
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:52 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

And what are you talking about "lack of Asians"?


The Asians taking the LSAT aren't the same group of Asians who took the SAT.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:53 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

It's old data, but in 1997-1998, Asians averaged 150.84 while caucasians averaged 151.96. From 1991-1998 caucasians consistently averaged about 2-3 points higher.

--LinkRemoved--

User avatar
Gamecubesupreme
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:55 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

It's old data, but in 1997-1998, Asians averaged 150.84 while caucasians averaged 151.96. From 1991-1998 caucasians consistently averaged about 2-3 points higher.

--LinkRemoved--


Exactly.

However, Asians who take the MCAT and the GMAT score, on average, the highest of all racial groups.

Hmmmm, why do I have a bad feeling I've inadvertently started a flame war.

User avatar
RVP11
Posts: 2774
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:32 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby RVP11 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:56 pm

Gamecubesupreme wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

And what are you talking about "lack of Asians"?


The Asians taking the LSAT aren't the same group of Asians who took the SAT.


You're thinking about this way too hard.

Harvard has a mean LSAT of 166. That's the highest of any UG in the country, to my knowledge. And you're trying to explain why it's so "low." Think about that for a second.

OP's question is a dumb one. At every single school in the country the law students are going to be brighter, on average, than the undergrad population. We don't need to slice and dice and analyze - this is intuitive, folks.

User avatar
Nom Sawyer
Posts: 933
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:28 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Nom Sawyer » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:01 pm

Gamecubesupreme wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:Pretty sure Asians score the same or lower than whites on the LSAT.

It's old data, but in 1997-1998, Asians averaged 150.84 while caucasians averaged 151.96. From 1991-1998 caucasians consistently averaged about 2-3 points higher.

--LinkRemoved--


Exactly.

However, Asians who take the MCAT and the GMAT score, on average, the highest of all racial groups.

Hmmmm, why do I have a bad feeling I've inadvertently started a flame war.


Asians on average probably score lower on the LSAT because the LSAT is very heavily based on strong English comprehension skills... probably more so than any other higher level test. Thus Asians who are not born in America will always be slightly handicapped in terms of speed of reading and things like that...

Tofu
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:18 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Tofu » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:03 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.


i like this.

ilovethelsat
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby ilovethelsat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:24 pm

Tofu wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.


i like this.


Ummm...not really.

Is it any coincidence that Harvard undergraduates have the highest average LSAT score? Is it any coincidence that Yale is second, followed by Princeton? Is it also a coincidence that almost every college's average SAT score strongly correlates with its average LSAT score?

User avatar
Cleareyes
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:59 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Cleareyes » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:31 pm

The LSAT tests different skills than the SAT, if for no other reason than the lack of a scored writing section and a math section. I also think that the subset of HYP students who are interested in going to law school is probably not representative of the student body as a whole. That being said, I've been kind of shocked as to the percentage of my classmates who attended Ivy League schools. I constantly find myself in groups and situations where everyone is an Ivy graduate. As for those HYP students I know who've compared their Harvard Law classmates to undergrad classmates the general consensus has been that there are no slackers at the law school but once you cut that group out, the difference isn't that pronounced. Everybody's smart, everybody works hard, everybody has fun, everybody Wangs Chung.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:
Tofu wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.

i like this.

Ummm...not really.

Is it any coincidence that Harvard undergraduates have the highest average LSAT score? Is it any coincidence that Yale is second, followed by Princeton? Is it also a coincidence that almost every college's average SAT score strongly correlates with its average LSAT score?

Yes, there's an overall correlation, but that doesn't mean there's any individual equation in scores at all. You're taking two entirely different and separate things and confusing them with each other.

I'd expect Harvard kids in general to do better on the LSAT than kids at Suffolk or Northeastern, but that's not the same as saying I expect every Harvard kid to get a 179 and be eligible for HYS just because Harvard is one of if not the best UG in the nation.

Tofu
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:18 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Tofu » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:
Tofu wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Harvard's average SAT score is 1480/1600. Does that mean a 1480 on the SAT roughly equal to a 166 on the LSAT? Or does the average Harvard student study much harder for the SAT than for the LSAT?

It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.


i like this.


Ummm...not really.

Is it any coincidence that Harvard undergraduates have the highest average LSAT score? Is it any coincidence that Yale is second, followed by Princeton? Is it also a coincidence that almost every college's average SAT score strongly correlates with its average LSAT score?


i was moreso talking about how you can't easily equate an sat score to an lsat score

ilovethelsat
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:03 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby ilovethelsat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:46 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:
Tofu wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:It means you can't equate the SAT to the LSAT very easily.

i like this.

Ummm...not really.

Is it any coincidence that Harvard undergraduates have the highest average LSAT score? Is it any coincidence that Yale is second, followed by Princeton? Is it also a coincidence that almost every college's average SAT score strongly correlates with its average LSAT score?

Yes, there's an overall correlation, but that doesn't mean there's any individual equation in scores at all. You're taking two entirely different and separate things and confusing them with each other.

I'd expect Harvard kids in general to do better on the LSAT than kids at Suffolk or Northeastern, but that's not the same as saying I expect every Harvard kid to get a 179 and be eligible for HYS just because Harvard is one of if not the best UG in the nation.


There's still a correlation between SAT and LSAT scores at the individual level.

http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/sa ... cores.html

R^2 = .38, which is particularly impressive because the sample size was small and biased toward high-scoring students.

User avatar
vanwinkle
Posts: 9740
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:48 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Yes, there's an overall correlation, but that doesn't mean there's any individual equation in scores at all. You're taking two entirely different and separate things and confusing them with each other.

I'd expect Harvard kids in general to do better on the LSAT than kids at Suffolk or Northeastern, but that's not the same as saying I expect every Harvard kid to get a 179 and be eligible for HYS just because Harvard is one of if not the best UG in the nation.


There's still a correlation between SAT and LSAT scores at the individual level.

http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/sa ... cores.html

R^2 = .38, which is particularly impressive because the sample size was small and biased toward high-scoring students.

That would be an overall correlation, which is what I said there was. .38 is pretty high in terms of correlation but not anywhere near high enough that you could start making individual equation claims along the lines of "a 1480 on the LSAT roughly equals a 166 on the LSAT". That's not at all what this correlation data supports.

User avatar
Unitas
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby Unitas » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:09 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:Yes, there's an overall correlation, but that doesn't mean there's any individual equation in scores at all. You're taking two entirely different and separate things and confusing them with each other.

I'd expect Harvard kids in general to do better on the LSAT than kids at Suffolk or Northeastern, but that's not the same as saying I expect every Harvard kid to get a 179 and be eligible for HYS just because Harvard is one of if not the best UG in the nation.


There's still a correlation between SAT and LSAT scores at the individual level.

http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/sa ... cores.html

R^2 = .38, which is particularly impressive because the sample size was small and biased toward high-scoring students.

That would be an overall correlation, which is what I said there was. .38 is pretty high in terms of correlation but not anywhere near high enough that you could start making individual equation claims along the lines of "a 1480 on the LSAT roughly equals a 166 on the LSAT". That's not at all what this correlation data supports.


Damnit.. This would have been great for my analysis project.

That data set is 70 samples. Worthless.

imisscollege
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: HYP undergrads vs. HYS 0Ls

Postby imisscollege » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:15 pm

for what it's worth, my lsat teacher swears more than anything else that one's lsat "potential" (for higher scorers) is within 1-2 points of their equivalent verbal sat score...kind of...it's easier to explain with examples

720 = 172

690 = 169

600 = 160

you get the idea. he strongly discourages his students from actually taking the exam unless their practice tests are right around if not above what their score "should" be, according to their verbal sat




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], TripTrip and 2 guests