ATL reports on school application volumes

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im_blue
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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby im_blue » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:32 am

Kohinoor wrote:Or they're becoming more and more known for being the school that emphasizes experience.


Yeah, Northwestern has gone from 80% with 1+ years of WE in 2001, to 91% in 2004, to 98% in 2009. That reputation scares off college seniors, especially those who hear through LSN and TLS that their chances are slim unless they have CCN numbers. A college senior who might have applied back in 2004 is not going to waste his efforts to be one of 4-5 special admits now.

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chadwick218
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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:36 am

im_blue wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:Or they're becoming more and more known for being the school that emphasizes experience.


Yeah, Northwestern has gone from 80% with 1+ years of WE in 2001, to 91% in 2004, to 98% in 2009. That reputation scares off college seniors, especially those who hear through LSN and TLS that their chances are slim unless they have CCN numbers. A college senior who might have applied back in 2004 is not going to waste his efforts to be one of 4-5 special admits now.


I have a feeling that they admit a lot more than just the 4-5 who end up matriculating ... it's just that those who are actually admitted, but do not matriculate far better options than attending NU.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby BenJ » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:54 am

chadwick218 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:Or they're becoming more and more known for being the school that emphasizes experience.


Yeah, Northwestern has gone from 80% with 1+ years of WE in 2001, to 91% in 2004, to 98% in 2009. That reputation scares off college seniors, especially those who hear through LSN and TLS that their chances are slim unless they have CCN numbers. A college senior who might have applied back in 2004 is not going to waste his efforts to be one of 4-5 special admits now.


I have a feeling that they admit a lot more than just the 4-5 who end up matriculating ... it's just that those who are actually admitted, but do not matriculate far better options than attending NU.


Either way, as I pointed out elsewhere, if you have good enough numbers to get into Northwestern out of undergrad, you have good enough numbers to get into Chicago, and I can't see any reason to take Northwestern over Chicago. So there's no reason to even apply to Northwestern for someone coming out of undergrad, especially because their app fee is higher than anywhere else.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby fortissimo » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:56 am

Damn. So glad I am not applying this cycle.

I didn't apply to Northwestern because I didn't have 2+ years of WE. Potentially being with a class that's much older than me is also daunting.

This isn't to say that I wouldn't prefer Northwestern as an institution to other schools in the T-14 though. I applied to UVA and Duke but I didn't really want to go anywhere in the South (or anywhere else with sweltering heat for that matter) and if NU didn't have the WE requirement (nor had an older class) I'd definitely have taken it over them.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:07 pm

Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby im_blue » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:49 pm

chadwick218 wrote:Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.


I posed this question in a thread, which Ken asked in this NU Law interview:

TLS: Does the school's focus on work experience limit its potential to rise in the rankings, since they may sacrifice college seniors with high GPA/LSAT scores (or those students wouldn't choose to come to NU)?

I think, to a certain extent, our admissions statistics speak for themselves. Since 1996, our median LSAT has risen from a 164 to a 170. So, it hasn’t limited us with regards to that particular statistic. I think in the end we are looking for strong students — students who will contribute to the Northwestern Law community. If a college senior who has a high GPA and a high LSAT score is interested in Northwestern, they should definitely come in and do an interview and state their case. Because the fact of the matter is, we would like to get to know the applicant a little better in that way.

I think the one thing that college seniors who apply to Northwestern Law often fail to do in their application is to really convey the message of why they want to go to law school. That’s really important to us, especially when evaluating an application of a college senior. The one thing that we try to screen for, in general, are applicants who are going to law school just to go to law school, and not as part of a discernable career plan. Applicants that are delaying the inevitable of finding a job, who say “I can’t find a job — I’ll go to law school!” In the application process, we try to look into the motivations of why the applicant wants to go to law school, especially among college seniors.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/johann-l ... rview.html

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby fortissimo » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:30 pm

chadwick218 wrote:Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.


NU has pretty strong numbers because of/despite its WE requirement and it seems to offer a lot of money to students. However, I think that it would definitely have more applications and hence possibly a lower acceptance rate if straight out of undergrads weren't dissuaded from applying.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:07 pm

fortissimo wrote:NU has pretty strong numbers because of/despite its WE requirement and it seems to offer a lot of money to students. However, I think that it would definitely have more applications and hence possibly a lower acceptance rate if straight out of undergrads weren't dissuaded from applying.


True, but looking at LSN, it appears as though only a few of these students actually matriculate. Of those who matriculate, approximately 33% receive financial aid, but only 15% receive anything more than 1/2 scholarship.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby JOThompson » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:10 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
kingabraham3 wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:Interestingly enough, the # of applicants to NU has declined in recent years. I think that the reason is pretty self-explanatory though ... :wink:

...help me out. i'm slow.


-steep application fee + implicit work-experience requirements (IMO, has deterred many otherwise would-be applicants)

Even with a fee waiver, I didn't apply there. Not even worth it without work experience IMO.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:14 pm

JOThompson wrote:Even with a fee waiver, I didn't apply there. Not even worth it without work experience IMO.


I also think that the interview significantly deters people. Indeed, I almost didn't apply b/c I didn't have time in my schedule w/ work + international travel to sit down for an interview. Alternatively, the interviews do help to assess which students are most interested in attending and arguably allows NU to make a more informed decision in terms of admissions.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby Oban » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:01 pm

Northwestern scares off the students applying to law school for the sake of applying to law school. It's a good thing.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:11 pm

fortissimo wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.


NU has pretty strong numbers because of/despite its WE requirement and it seems to offer a lot of money to students. However, I think that it would definitely have more applications and hence possibly a lower acceptance rate if straight out of undergrads weren't dissuaded from applying.


They also bolster their LSAT median by taking students who could barely get into the T20 because of a poor [strike]LSAT[/strike]GPA . NU is the only T14 I could get into, and WUSTL would be the only other T20 I could get.

Also being known as a more adult law school might increase their yield amongst older experienced cross admits with Michigan, Penn, Virgina, Cornell and Duke.
Last edited by 09042014 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:They also bolster their LSAT median by taking students who could barely get into the T20 because of a poor LSAT. NU is the only T14 I could get into, and WUSTL would be the only other T20 I could get.

Also being known as a more adult law school might increase their yield amongst older experienced cross admits with Michigan, Penn, Virgina, Cornell and Duke.


And if my class / section offers any evidence, NU has actually been very successful in this approach. It seems as though many of my classmates who were in the same position as Fox have did very well last semester.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby rayiner » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:21 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.


NU has pretty strong numbers because of/despite its WE requirement and it seems to offer a lot of money to students. However, I think that it would definitely have more applications and hence possibly a lower acceptance rate if straight out of undergrads weren't dissuaded from applying.


They also bolster their LSAT median by taking students who could barely get into the T20 because of a poor [strike]LSAT[/strike]GPA . NU is the only T14 I could get into, and WUSTL would be the only other T20 I could get.

Also being known as a more adult law school might increase their yield amongst older experienced cross admits with Michigan, Penn, Virgina, Cornell and Duke.


I'm not sure there are enough sub-3.0/170+ splitters with WE for that to make a difference in the median.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
fortissimo wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:Although I was personally attracted by the "experience" requirement in making my decision to attend NU, I wonder whether the experience requirement (in as much as it sets the school a part), serves as a competitive disadvantage in that it deters more undergrads with very strong numbers from applying who otherwise would attend if admitted than it encourages people like me to attend NU over a peer school.


NU has pretty strong numbers because of/despite its WE requirement and it seems to offer a lot of money to students. However, I think that it would definitely have more applications and hence possibly a lower acceptance rate if straight out of undergrads weren't dissuaded from applying.


They also bolster their LSAT median by taking students who could barely get into the T20 because of a poor [strike]LSAT[/strike]GPA . NU is the only T14 I could get into, and WUSTL would be the only other T20 I could get.

Also being known as a more adult law school might increase their yield amongst older experienced cross admits with Michigan, Penn, Virgina, Cornell and Duke.


I'm not sure there are enough sub-3.0/170+ splitters with WE for that to make a difference in the median.


It really depends on how close to 170 they can get without using them. When you need 117 (half of 233) people with a 170, four or five big splitters can be significant.

And there are at least three TLSers who fit that bill who are already in via ED for 2013.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby rayiner » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:It really depends on how close to 170 they can get without using them. When you need 117 (half of 233) people with a 170, four or five big splitters can be significant.

And there are at least three TLSers who fit that bill who are already in via ED for 2013.


Possibly. Maybe more significant for maintaining that 172 75th now that I think about it.

I should note that there were some shocking ED decisions this year. My impression was that sub-3.0's during past cycles were mostly taken off the waitlist.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:55 pm

rayiner wrote:I should note that there were some shocking ED decisions this year. My impression was that sub-3.0's during past cycles were mostly taken off the waitlist.


Monitoring LSN and TLS, I feel much the same way. It appears as though they are trying to establish their 25/75 early.
Last edited by chadwick218 on Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ATL reports on school application volumes

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:03 pm

rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:It really depends on how close to 170 they can get without using them. When you need 117 (half of 233) people with a 170, four or five big splitters can be significant.

And there are at least three TLSers who fit that bill who are already in via ED for 2013.


Possibly. Maybe more significant for maintaining that 172 75th now that I think about it.

I should note that there were some shocking ED decisions this year. My impression was that sub-3.0's during past cycles were mostly taken off the waitlist.


I wasn't planning on EDing at NU, but instead Penn or Michigan, until I decided NU was the school I wanted because I live near Chicago, and wanted to practice there my whole career. I'm glad I did. I was expecting a WL.

The ED data from past cycles was non-existent for sub 3.0 splitters. I guess they figured they'd lock us down now instead of waiting til May or June.

It should be noted since the ED decisions nobody under 3.0 has gotten in. They've all been held. So it seems like the pattern still holds.




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