Novel Way to Get to Law School...T14 perhaps, too! Forum

[cubswin]

A sociology professor told me that some PhD programs in Criminology/Deviance actually do look at a criminal history as a positive factor in admission.

Mr. Hopwood, who is 34, said he hoped to apply to law school next year. Richard Friedman, a law professor at the University of Michigan who worked with Mr. Hopwood on the briefs for a recent Supreme Court case, said that he had already talked to the admissions office there about saving a spot.

Sounds like he still has to apply, even if it's a formality. I don't think this is foul play. Friedman wants him at Michigan on the basis of his (non-criminal) accomplishments. It's not like he's saving a seat for his nephew. If Hopwood's application is awful, they could still reject him.

In fact, many of the nation's elite schools have a guilty pleasure: admitting former convicts.

Are you surprized?

It's better than admitting people who substitute "z" for "s" in words like surprised.

[rdfrdman]

Perhaps I can shorten the conversation to some extent. When I learned Shon Hopwood's remarkable story, I wrote about him to Sarah Zearfoss, our Dean of Admissions, recommending him for admission at such time as he applies. We did not talk about "reserving" a spot. That would have been foolish. I assume our Admissions Office never reserves spots for candidates in advance of their applications -- especially years ahead of time. (I don't think Shon wil lbe ready to go to law school before 2011.) Even if they ever did that, it is not my role -- as a member of the faculty with no responsibility over admissions -- to try to tie up spots for prospective candidates. And if I had tried that, I suspect Sarah would have stomped on me. All I did, really, was give Sarah advance notice of an unusual candidate and do a little advance pleading for his admission. And yes, I do hope he comes to Michigan, whatever his grades and whatever his LSATs, because he has already shown great legal talent and because, obviously, he would contribute a unique perspective. But nothing is reserved. Adam Liptak wrote a great piece on this story, but on this particular matter his language should not be taken literally.

[neskerdoo]

Perhaps I can shorten the conversation to some extent. When I learned Shon Hopwood's remarkable story, I wrote about him to Sarah Zearfoss, our Dean of Admissions, recommending him for admission at such time as he applies. We did not talk about "reserving" a spot. That would have been foolish. I assume our Admissions Office never reserves spots for candidates in advance of their applications -- especially years ahead of time. (I don't think Shon wil lbe ready to go to law school before 2011.) Even if they ever did that, it is not my role -- as a member of the faculty with no responsibility over admissions -- to try to tie up spots for prospective candidates. And if I had tried that, I suspect Sarah would have stomped on me. All I did, really, was give Sarah advance notice of an unusual candidate and do a little advance pleading for his admission. And yes, I do hope he comes to Michigan, whatever his grades and whatever his LSATs, because he has already shown great legal talent and because, obviously, he would contribute a unique perspective. But nothing is reserved. Adam Liptak wrote a great piece on this story, but on this particular matter his language should not be taken literally.

if this is real, this is awesome

also, all but a very few of the posts in this thread are ragingly retarded; ditto for the votes

[poprox]

Perhaps I can shorten the conversation to some extent. When I learned Shon Hopwood's remarkable story, I wrote about him to Sarah Zearfoss, our Dean of Admissions, recommending him for admission at such time as he applies. We did not talk about "reserving" a spot. That would have been foolish. I assume our Admissions Office never reserves spots for candidates in advance of their applications -- especially years ahead of time. (I don't think Shon wil lbe ready to go to law school before 2011.) Even if they ever did that, it is not my role -- as a member of the faculty with no responsibility over admissions -- to try to tie up spots for prospective candidates. And if I had tried that, I suspect Sarah would have stomped on me. All I did, really, was give Sarah advance notice of an unusual candidate and do a little advance pleading for his admission. And yes, I do hope he comes to Michigan, whatever his grades and whatever his LSATs, because he has already shown great legal talent and because, obviously, he would contribute a unique perspective. But nothing is reserved. Adam Liptak wrote a great piece on this story, but on this particular matter his language should not be taken literally.

if this is real, this is awesome

also, all but a very few of the posts in this thread are ragingly retarded; ditto for the votes

Don't call my posts retarded, only Rush Limbaugh is allowed to used that kind of language!

[RVP11]

One tenet of our criminal justice system is that reform is possible, yet you're labelling this person in a permanent way by way of your comparison. His former actions do not determine his destiny as a human being. At one time he WAS a law-breaker. He got caught, received punishment, and is now living in a wholly different way. He's done his time for hurting society and now wants to contribute instead; please consider a re-evaluation, this man is not a branded piece of cattle.

FWIW, if this guy can pass the Michigan bar, what's that say about the C&F rules in Michigan? What do you have to do to be disqualified?

C&F tend to have more problems with fraud and other honesty-related issues than they do with felonies like theft. The Texas bar admitted an ex-con who had been in prison in for murder.

And +1 to poprox. Give the guy a chance. He's done more without a law degree than 99% of us will do with one.

[monkeyboy]

Moral of the story...if convicted for armed robbery, but manage to polish your legal brief-writing skills behind bars then you have a shot at T-14 and your robbery and detainment of innocent individuals at gunpoint becomes a speed bump.

I'm all for rehabilitation, but if this fool is admitted to a prestigious law school and lauded for his "accomplishments" behind bars then something is wrong. His notoriety is drawn from a series of events that are directly correlated to him threatening lives of individuals at gunpoint and taking FDIC insured money because he fell on hard economic times.

I too have been strapped for cash, but decided against knocking off a liquor store or holding the life of an innocent mother, father, brother or sister at the tip of a trigger-finger. No, I busted my ass to overcome and wasnt afforded the "luxory" of time and resources while sitting in a prison library educating myself. This has to be a joke. /rant

There are always exceptions. This man is clearly exceptional. He'll go to a better law school than I will but he's earned it, and his story is unique. I don't begrudge him his success. Stories like this are uplifting.

A prison is hardly a relaxing environment in which to study. I've never been, but my buddy spent a year in lockup in Hawaii, and it wasn't a year in paradise.

[monkeyboy]

Thought this would drive everyone NUTS...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/us/09 ... terstitial

good soft

I should save this link and paste it into any thread where someone talks about having been student government vice president and did an internship for course credit at a local homeless shelter. It makes the point so much easier; instead of having to try to explain it, you can just go, "No, those are okay softs. THIS is what good softs look like."

LOL, but true. Extraordinary softs should help an application. Joining the Peace Corps and giving two years of your life to help your fellow man is extraordinary. Service as a Marine is rather extraordinary. So many other softs are boring and require relatively little effort or sacrifice.

[neskerdoo]

Perhaps I can shorten the conversation to some extent. When I learned Shon Hopwood's remarkable story, I wrote about him to Sarah Zearfoss, our Dean of Admissions, recommending him for admission at such time as he applies. We did not talk about "reserving" a spot. That would have been foolish. I assume our Admissions Office never reserves spots for candidates in advance of their applications -- especially years ahead of time. (I don't think Shon wil lbe ready to go to law school before 2011.) Even if they ever did that, it is not my role -- as a member of the faculty with no responsibility over admissions -- to try to tie up spots for prospective candidates. And if I had tried that, I suspect Sarah would have stomped on me. All I did, really, was give Sarah advance notice of an unusual candidate and do a little advance pleading for his admission. And yes, I do hope he comes to Michigan, whatever his grades and whatever his LSATs, because he has already shown great legal talent and because, obviously, he would contribute a unique perspective. But nothing is reserved. Adam Liptak wrote a great piece on this story, but on this particular matter his language should not be taken literally.

if this is real, this is awesome

also, all but a very few of the posts in this thread are ragingly retarded; ditto for the votes

Don't call my posts retarded, only Rush Limbaugh is allowed to used that kind of language!

you are the very few, corky

[notanumber]

I am currently considering an admission offer from Michigan and knowing that my class might include somebody like Shon Hopwood is actually a huge plus for the school.

Imagine how much you could learn as a law student from a guy who has experienced the criminal justice system from the inside and who has worked on SCOTUS cases. Wow.

No matter his "numbers," I'd much rather have this guy in my study group than some fresh-out-of-undergrad with a 179 lsat.

[vanwinkle]

I am currently considering an admission offer from Michigan and knowing that my class might include somebody like Shon Hopwood is actually a huge plus for the school.

Imagine how much you could learn as a law student from a guy who has experienced the criminal justice system from the inside and who has worked on SCOTUS cases. Wow.

No matter his "numbers," I'd much rather have this guy in my study group than some fresh-out-of-undergrad with a 179 lsat.

+1, well said.

[neskerdoo]

I am currently considering an admission offer from Michigan and knowing that my class might include somebody like Shon Hopwood is actually a huge plus for the school.

Imagine how much you could learn as a law student from a guy who has experienced the criminal justice system from the inside and who has worked on SCOTUS cases. Wow.

No matter his "numbers," I'd much rather have this guy in my study group than some fresh-out-of-undergrad with a 179 lsat.

this is patronizing

[GATORTIM]

but this man could very easily have taken an innocent life, regardless of his intent when he entered the bank

Do you think people who get behind the wheel of a car while drunk and risk innocent lives (despite the best intentions) deserve to go to law school?

I like fish, but have yet to aquire a taste for Red Herring

Remember those questions on the LSAT that asked you how the argument proceeds and one of the options was "the argument draws on an analogy..." Then remember how when this was the credited response the problem didn't mention a flaw in the argument? Well they didn't because there is no flaw. The analogy absolutely pertains to your argument and is completely valid. The only issue here is that your position is so weak that your only response is to make a lame joke about an informal logical fallacy that in no way relates to the counter-argument. With that in mind, do you want to know what's really funny? YOUR RESPONSE WAS ITSELF A RED HERRING ARGUMENT!

I think you would have an entirely different take on the article if you or a family member were on the working-end of Mr. Hopwood's 45 cal.

Of course he would! That's why we have a justice system! By this logic we should give the death penalty to the boy who picked on my sister on the playground because if it were up to me I would have ripped his head off. Nice faulty appeal to emotion here.

your robbery and detainment of innocent individuals at gunpoint becomes a speed bump.

A speed bump? I'm 26 years old; if I imagine having spent every day since I got my driver license locked in prison, speed bump is the last thing in the world I would use to describe it.

I'm all for rehabilitation, but if this fool is admitted to a prestigious law school and lauded for his "accomplishments" behind bars then something is wrong.

The only things wrong here are your ridiculous notion of justice and pathetic attempts at constructing arguments for your unjustified beliefs.

Hope you enjoyed using the Powerscore Bibles to analyze my opinion. Just as you (and the majority on this thread) herald Clyde Barrow for his achievement, I can offer a dissenting view. It is difficult to apply formal logic or diagram ones beliefs, perhaps my view is not shared by the majority and perhaps I am missing something in this touching story of a mans rise from the world of armed robbery and detainment of humans at gunpoint to the next great legal mind of our nation.

[trutherd]

Hope you enjoyed using the Powerscore Bibles to analyze my opinion. Just as you (and the majority on this thread) herald Clyde Barrow for his achievement, I can offer a dissenting view. It is difficult to apply formal logic or diagram ones beliefs, perhaps my view is not shared by the majority and perhaps I am missing something in this touching story of a mans rise from the world of armed robbery and detainment of humans at gunpoint to the next great legal mind of our nation.

1. I've never read the Powerscore Bibles.
2. You introduced the "Powerscore Bible-y" language (aka, logic).
3. I criticized you for weak arguments - in no way did I imply that you should apply formal logic/diagramming, those were your additions (look, another red herring!)
:. You are both a moron and a prick.

[vanwinkle]

Just as you (and the majority on this thread) herald Clyde Barrow for his achievement, I can offer a dissenting view. It is difficult to apply formal logic or diagram ones beliefs

The problem is that for someone to accept a dissenting view, they must be able to recognize some logic or valuable belief system in it. You seemed to present neither, you were just kind of ... dissenting, almost for the sake of doing so.

I mean, you can continue doing what you were doing, but do you really wanna become known as the Sarah Palin of TLS?

[Veritas]

not sure if this was posted here: http://www.law.umich.edu/connection/a2z/default.aspx

[GATORTIM]

Just as you (and the majority on this thread) herald Clyde Barrow for his achievement, I can offer a dissenting view. It is difficult to apply formal logic or diagram ones beliefs

The problem is that for someone to accept a dissenting view, they must be able to recognize some logic or valuable belief system in it. You seemed to present neither, you were just kind of ... dissenting, almost for the sake of doing so.

I mean, you can continue doing what you were doing, but do you really wanna become known as the Sarah Palin of TLS?

I'm not asking anybody to incorporate my view into their belief system.

[vanwinkle]

I'm not asking anybody to incorporate my view into their belief system.

If you're not trying to sway others, then why bother sharing your view at all?

[GATORTIM]

I'm not asking anybody to incorporate my view into their belief system.

If you're not trying to sway others, then why bother sharing your view at all?

I thought the purpose of TLS is to encourage open discussion, express ideas, interests, share knowledge, yadda yadda yadda...you cannot tell me that each post of yours is intended to sway others, can you?

[vanwinkle]

I'm not asking anybody to incorporate my view into their belief system.

If you're not trying to sway others, then why bother sharing your view at all?

I thought the purpose of TLS is to encourage open discussion, express ideas, interests, share knowledge, yadda yadda yadda...you cannot tell me that each post of yours is intended to sway others, can you?

Not all of them, but if I'm disagreeing with someone and presenting a dissenting opinion, of course it's with the intent to sway others. That's the entire purpose of dissenting.

You mentioned trying to show a dissenting view; if you seriously don't expect anyone to be swayed by such a dissent, why bother sharing it at all? It accomplishes nothing, by your own admission, since it doesn't sway anyone else. This is an especially bad attitude to take since such a poorly-written dissent makes you look bad to a lot of people and helps convince them they're right to hold the majority opinion.

[robin600]

Yes, but he served his time. Should he no longer be allowed to integrate back in society? Moreover, he obviously has the skills and ability which could greatly improve our society, and he possesses a unique lens which should enable him to see things that 'those who did it right' cannot.

I agree that he has paid his debt to society and has gained useful knowledge at the expense of taxpayers while in prison. I just think that the seriousness of his crimes are being tossed aside in light of his accomplishments. If he was imprisoned for stealing cars or some white-collar type crime then I do not believe I would give a shit, but this man could very easily have taken an innocent life, regardless of his intent when he entered the bank (watch Point Break).

I'm not saying he should dawn a scarlet letter for the rest of his life and he should be allowed to provide for his new family. However, I just don't think awarding the man a seat at a prestigious law school at the further expense of tax-payers and another qualified, law abiding, applicant is right/fair/just/whatever. Either way it is not my call and will not impact my life...I'm just sayin'.

Do you think people who get behind the wheel of a car while drunk and risk innocent lives (despite the best intentions) deserve to go to law school?

good one, as much as I know people change, I can't justify this or a DUI (although it is done) to law school. IDK, maybe I'm misguided, just can't get past it.

[PDaddy]

Actually, I feel a movie coming on, especially if the guy gets in, graduates and becomes top lawyer. I'd pay to see it. If they can make Catch Me If You Can about a con artist/master check fraudster who also feigned being a doctor, a lawyer (one who actually passed the Louisiana bar w/o formal law training) and a pilot, this could also be a good movie...maybe the sequel to "Wolverine", starring Hugh Jackman. LOL.

The bottom line is that one either believes in rehabilitation or doesn't. Call me an idealist, but I believe in it. Terrorists, child molesters and serial killers get no pass, but I believe the rest can, to varying degrees, be rehabed. And they deserve varying degrees of forgiveness and second chances. This guy has a gift. He should be given an opportunity to go as far as he can with it.

There are/were many successful former criminals:

Susanne Sommers (fraud, theft)
Mark Wahlberg (assault, theft)
Jay-Z (drug trafficking)
Malcolm-X (theft, "slavery", drugs, gambling, robbery, burglary)

[James Bond]

Ultimate soft = felon?

[PDaddy]

Ultimate soft = felon?

Michigan Law has done this before, with an African American woman who had been incarcerated for dealing drugs with her husband or boyfriend.

[vanwinkle]

Ultimate soft = felon?

Michigan Law has done this before, with an African American woman who had been incarcerated for dealing drugs with her husband or boyfriend.

For someone who keeps declaring his departure from TLS, you sure can't seem to stay away.

[09042014]

I wouldn't want him in my section.

I would, curve bait.