U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Which Would You Prefer?

U of Virginia
10
15%
University of Michigan
35
51%
Northwestern University
10
15%
Duke
13
19%
 
Total votes: 68

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EdmundBurke23
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U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:04 am

In what way is U Mich better than Duke and Northwestern? I'm speaking in terms of rankings, of course.

Is there really a discernable difference between the three schools in terms of job prospects and clerking? What about academic careers?

How much better is UVA in comparison to Duke and NU? Forgive me if I'm wrong in suggesting that UVA is better; I've jsut seen a lot of people saying that it's the best out of the three schools that are tied in rankings.
Last edited by EdmundBurke23 on Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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im_blue
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:17 am

Michigan and Virginia have better reputations than Duke and Northwestern, but all 4 have very comparable biglaw placement (and are, of course, stronger in their respective regions). I believe Michigan might have an edge for academia, though.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:20 am

I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.

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stratocophic
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:33 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


Maybe that's why they take true LSAT splitters, unlike the other T10s. They almost certainly have to accept some GPA splitters from in-state, so the LSAT splitters may be necessary to make up the difference and preserve medians. None of the other T10 schools seem to make it a habit, and none of them have the same disadvantage (could be correlation but not causation, of course). Northwestern doesn't truly count because of the whole WE requirement thing.

Edit: also, the fact that 40% of the school is drawn from Virginia residents doesn't necessarily imply that 100% (or even 25%) of those candidates need be "inferior." The best in state applicants could probably expect large scholarships and guaranteed acceptances to keep UVA a top school.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:49 am

stratocophic wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


Maybe that's why they take true LSAT splitters, unlike the other T10s. They almost certainly have to accept some GPA splitters from in-state, so the LSAT splitters may be necessary to make up the difference and preserve medians. None of the other T10 schools seem to make it a habit, and none of them have the same disadvantage (could be correlation but not causation, of course). Northwestern doesn't truly count because of the whole WE requirement thing.

Edit: also, the fact that 40% of the school is drawn from Virginia residents doesn't necessarily imply that 100% (or even 25%) of those candidates need be "inferior." The best in state applicants could probably expect large scholarships and guaranteed acceptances to keep UVA a top school.


Notice that I suggested that they were necessarily inferior. "Potentially inferior" is what I said. Non-Residents to residents ratio is 10:1; so it's less competitive for residents... this might mean that you don't have to be as sharp as non-residents to get in (Not to mention the fact that non-residents somewhat have to compensate for the resident splitters that find their way into the school).

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stratocophic
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:55 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


Maybe that's why they take true LSAT splitters, unlike the other T10s. They almost certainly have to accept some GPA splitters from in-state, so the LSAT splitters may be necessary to make up the difference and preserve medians. None of the other T10 schools seem to make it a habit, and none of them have the same disadvantage (could be correlation but not causation, of course). Northwestern doesn't truly count because of the whole WE requirement thing.

Edit: also, the fact that 40% of the school is drawn from Virginia residents doesn't necessarily imply that 100% (or even 25%) of those candidates need be "inferior." The best in state applicants could probably expect large scholarships and guaranteed acceptances to keep UVA a top school.


Notice that I suggested that they were necessarily inferior. "Potentially inferior" is what I said. Non-Residents to residents ratio is 10:1; so it's less competitive for residents... this might mean that you don't have to be as sharp as non-residents to get in (Not to mention the fact that non-residents somewhat have to compensate for the resident splitters that find their way into the school).


My mistake. The most effective way to counter the lower numbers would be to take in state URMs at the greatest possible rate, as URM numbers will be below median in the vast majority of cases anyway. Given the new ED option, the damage to the median number could be minimal/nonexistent for this cycle if they can find enough in state URMs to accept.

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saltoftheearth
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby saltoftheearth » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:42 am

make Duke an option

portena
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby portena » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:52 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


This is possibly due in part to the large number of young professionals from all over the country who choose to live in Northern Virginia while working in DC.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:03 am

saltoftheearth wrote:make Duke an option


I made Duke an option, and it resetted all the other poll results! Makes me sad..

portena wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


This is possibly due in part to the large number of young professionals from all over the country who choose to live in Northern Virginia while working in DC.


I never thought of it that way:D Slightly resolves the paradox.

But as to getting into UVA... what LSAT score would a low GPA'er like myself (3.42) need in order to secure a spot at UVA? Just "okay softs."

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saltoftheearth
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby saltoftheearth » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:08 am

sorry about that, OP.. but thanks!

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:13 am

saltoftheearth wrote:sorry about that, OP.. but thanks!


You're very welcome:D So what do you think about the question that I asked on the above post?

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saltoftheearth
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby saltoftheearth » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:48 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
saltoftheearth wrote:sorry about that, OP.. but thanks!


You're very welcome:D So what do you think about the question that I asked on the above post?


I voted D because I prefer the effects of a smaller class size + low col

tls echo:
statistics are too slight
to ignore my personal preferences

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stratocophic
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:54 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
saltoftheearth wrote:make Duke an option


I made Duke an option, and it resetted all the other poll results! Makes me sad..

portena wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


This is possibly due in part to the large number of young professionals from all over the country who choose to live in Northern Virginia while working in DC.


I never thought of it that way:D Slightly resolves the paradox.

But as to getting into UVA... what LSAT score would a low GPA'er like myself (3.42) need in order to secure a spot at UVA? Just "okay softs."


Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.

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im_blue
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:11 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
saltoftheearth wrote:make Duke an option


I made Duke an option, and it resetted all the other poll results! Makes me sad..

portena wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:I wonder how UVA manages to hold its reputation when 40% of their seats are filled with potentially inferior students.


This is possibly due in part to the large number of young professionals from all over the country who choose to live in Northern Virginia while working in DC.


I never thought of it that way:D Slightly resolves the paradox.

But as to getting into UVA... what LSAT score would a low GPA'er like myself (3.42) need in order to secure a spot at UVA? Just "okay softs."


You'd need a 170 to have any chance.

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby Renzo » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:15 am

Do you prefer bitter cold or sweltering heat?
That question ought to cut your options in half

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Puffy
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby Puffy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:48 am

stratocophic wrote:Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.


I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.

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stratocophic
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:57 am

Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.


I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.


Probably because they've started culling splitters. The ones who jumped at the ED immediately were accepted, and now they've got either all they need or almost all. In-state splitters may be the only ones with hope from now until WL season.

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby Puffy » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:05 am

stratocophic wrote:
Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.


I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.


Probably because they've started culling splitters. The ones who jumped at the ED immediately were accepted, and now they've got either all they need or almost all. In-state splitters may be the only ones with hope from now until WL season.


I dunno I have a 3.68 UG GPA so.

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby im_blue » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:18 am

Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.


I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.


Probably because they've started culling splitters. The ones who jumped at the ED immediately were accepted, and now they've got either all they need or almost all. In-state splitters may be the only ones with hope from now until WL season.


I dunno I have a 3.68 UG GPA so.


A 3.68/172 is smack dab in YP territory for UVA, especially for nonresidents. If you check LSN, the acceptance rate is ~20% for this range.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:23 am

It actually seems easier to get into Michigan Law than UVA. Am I right?

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:24 am

Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Your LSAT is going to need to be on the order of a 170+ to get you in without URM status. A 171+ is a much safer bet, as there has been some speculation about UVA trying to bump their LSAT median. Without being in state, and it still wouldn't be a sure thing, a 169 will not do it. If you are dead set on UVA, your best chance for admission would be to ED early in the cycle.


I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.


Probably because they've started culling splitters. The ones who jumped at the ED immediately were accepted, and now they've got either all they need or almost all. In-state splitters may be the only ones with hope from now until WL season.


I dunno I have a 3.68 UG GPA so.


Still below median, though, which is the real problem. For a school aggressively looking to maintain its medians, anyone who has one score at/above and one score below is a splitter. Heck, you might have been WLed with a 3.84 if they're really playing hardball. I think you could potentially have a better shot at CCN from a pure numbers standpoint than UVA as a result of UVA's ED policy, believe it or not. Emphasis on I think.

im_blue wrote:
Puffy wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Puffy wrote:
I got waitlisted with 172 and a BA from UVA. I'm a CA resident.


Probably because they've started culling splitters. The ones who jumped at the ED immediately were accepted, and now they've got either all they need or almost all. In-state splitters may be the only ones with hope from now until WL season.


I dunno I have a 3.68 UG GPA so.


A 3.68/172 is smack dab in YP territory for UVA, especially for nonresidents. If you check LSN, the acceptance rate is ~20% for this range.


I don't know that it's a sure case of YP at this level. I feel that the definition of median causes anyone above one number and below the other to be considered as a splitter. That's the only way they get a median GPA that high short of an insane balancing act of WL admits. A 171 3.85 could potentially have a better chance for admission than a 175 3.6 due to their system.

Edit: If you take a look at LSN, there's a blatantly obvious border around ding territory. Aside from URMs, I was unable to find a single acceptance with both 3.85> 170>. URMs in that box may get off the WL in the summer, as may people with exceptional softs, but I'd almost guarantee that no one else in it will. It seems like a soft reject.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:33 am

Would a 3.68/172 fare better than a 3.42/174 in terms of YP?

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:43 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:Would a 3.68/172 fare better than a 3.42/174 in terms of YP?


I'd say they'd have almost an equal chance of getting in without accounting for the deeper nuances of the decision making process, at least if my view of UVA's methodology is correct. The LSAT difference isn't statistically significant and both are above the 75% for LSAT (so no real advantage there), but measuring likelihood by GPA depends on whether or not UVA is concerned with its 25% GPA median as one is above it and one is below. I don't think either will be YP as it is normally defined, as that would more likely be a candidate above both medians. If you look at LSN, very few candidates above both medians have been WLed: I'd assume they are more likely to throw money at those candidates in an attempt to convince them to attend than risk losing someone that could protect both medians. For UVA, I'd say YP would only apply for a candidate with a GPA slightly below median and LSAT in the mid to upper 170s or a few of the aforementioned candidates with numbers above both medians (because both of those classifications would have either a shot at money at better schools or admission into schools for which candidates might consider sticker better than $$$ at UVA).

I think that people on TLS can be too quick to throw the YP label around. Some candidates seem like locks for admission and are WLed for seemingly no apparent reason, but good numbers =/= both numbers above median. If schools happen to view some of those candidates as splitters because one number is below a median, it's probably not YP. Depends on the school, though. I think Michigan seems less likely to do this than UVA (at least for this cycle), maybe because they are less number-centric (that's assuming they really are less concerned with numbers, of course). I don't know that for a fact, of course. Just the impression I've gotten from massive amounts of stalking LSN and thinking about UVA's ED policy.

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:51 am

stratocophic wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:Would a 3.68/172 fare better than a 3.42/174 in terms of YP?


I'd say they'd have almost an equal chance of getting in without accounting for the deeper nuances of the decision making process, at least if my view of UVA's methodology is correct. The LSAT difference isn't statistically significant and both are above the 75% for LSAT (so no real advantage there), but measuring likelihood by GPA depends on whether or not UVA is concerned with its 25% GPA median as one is above it and one is below. I don't think either will be YP as it is normally defined, as that would more likely be a candidate above both medians. If you look at LSN, very few candidates above both medians have been WLed: I'd assume they are more likely to throw money at those candidates in an attempt to convince them to attend than risk losing someone that could protect both medians. For UVA, I'd say YP would only apply for a candidate with a GPA slightly below median and LSAT in the mid to upper 170s or a few of the aforementioned candidates with numbers above both medians (because both of those classifications would have either a shot at money at better schools or admission into schools for which candidates might consider sticker better than $$$ at UVA).


So if I pull my risk-averse tendancies in forming major decisions... I'd probably be better-off applying ED to Michigan, eh?

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Re: U Mich. vs. Duke vs. Northwestern

Postby stratocophic » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:10 am

EdmundBurke23 wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
EdmundBurke23 wrote:Would a 3.68/172 fare better than a 3.42/174 in terms of YP?


I'd say they'd have almost an equal chance of getting in without accounting for the deeper nuances of the decision making process, at least if my view of UVA's methodology is correct. The LSAT difference isn't statistically significant and both are above the 75% for LSAT (so no real advantage there), but measuring likelihood by GPA depends on whether or not UVA is concerned with its 25% GPA median as one is above it and one is below. I don't think either will be YP as it is normally defined, as that would more likely be a candidate above both medians. If you look at LSN, very few candidates above both medians have been WLed: I'd assume they are more likely to throw money at those candidates in an attempt to convince them to attend than risk losing someone that could protect both medians. For UVA, I'd say YP would only apply for a candidate with a GPA slightly below median and LSAT in the mid to upper 170s or a few of the aforementioned candidates with numbers above both medians (because both of those classifications would have either a shot at money at better schools or admission into schools for which candidates might consider sticker better than $$$ at UVA).


So if I pull my risk-averse tendancies in forming major decisions... I'd probably be better-off applying ED to Michigan, eh?


Well... it depends. If you're applying to UVA next cycle and you ED early, I'd say a 174 3.4 is nearly a lock because a 174 is a great LSAT. The issue is just that late in the cycle they don't necessarily have the flexibility to take great LSAT scores on their own merits. It's all dependent on your personal preferences, though. NYU would probably take you, and Chicago might as well (as long as you applied early to both, and possibly ED). You'd have far less of a chance at Columbia because you're not at their 75% LSAT. Michigan would be a pretty safe bet as well if you applied early on (and turned in a good Why Michigan essay). I would maybe apply to all of those schools early in the cycle and only switch to ED once it becomes clear that acceptances are not forthcoming, unless you like one of those schools (or Penn, Georgetown, etc, whatever floats your boat) significantly more than the others and are sure you would want to go to that school above the others no matter what. Basically, it depends on how risk averse you are. If the answer is extremely, ED to your favorite school and enjoy. If the answer is kind of, apply and see what happens before committing. You'd have a better shot at $ that way.

Wow, I'm getting overly wordy. Hopefully this is improving my typing speed :roll:




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