I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

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Illini372
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I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:59 pm

I applied all over

In at Texas, Vandy, BU, BC, University of Illinois (full ride), and Notre Dame (18k a year) so far, waiting on U of C, Northwestern, and Michigan

My entire family is located in the Midwest, I grew up near the city and love it and want to live there in the foreseeable future,
Right now I'm a lean towards UND, the money is good, the name itself opens a lot of doors. Worst case scenario Michigan, U of C, and NU say no. Anyone want to weight in, all comments appreciated.

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DOOM
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby DOOM » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:16 pm

That UIUC full ride seems like an excellent idea if you plan on staying in Illinois. Although, I could see how you might want a change of scenery from your UG.

Other than that, you'd be golden with Mich or UChicago, and given your cycle thus far, I think you'll hear good news from one of them (or atleast could try and ride a waitlist). Northwestern will depend on if you have post-UG work experience.

Chicago > Mich >> UIUC full ride >> Texas/Vandy/ND

just my $0.02

good luck.

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NayBoer
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby NayBoer » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:44 pm

Chicago is best, then Northwestern, then Michigan. Then UIUC even without a full ride. I'd do ND over Vandy for Chicago, but Vandy does go to CHI. Don't go to Texas unless you want Texas; it does not usually travel to Chicago and you will have to make your own way. Don't go to BU or BC unless you want Northeast.

The full ride is incredibly tempting, but don't forget to factor in cost of living. It might be your best bet, as long as you aren't wedded to working at the top CHI firms. If you are, then you want C > N > M.

Edit - Also, watch out for Notre Dame. Heard they got slaughtered at OCI. Don't go there over UIUC.

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DOOM
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby DOOM » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:52 pm

NayBoer wrote:Chicago is best, then Northwestern, then Michigan. Then UIUC even without a full ride. I'd do ND over Vandy for Chicago, but Vandy does go to CHI. Don't go to Texas unless you want Texas; it does not usually travel to Chicago and you will have to make your own way. Don't go to BU or BC unless you want Northeast.

The full ride is incredibly tempting, but don't forget to factor in cost of living. It might be your best bet, as long as you aren't wedded to working at the top CHI firms. If you are, then you want C > N > M.

Edit - Also, watch out for Notre Dame. Heard they got slaughtered at OCI. Don't go there over UIUC.


Cost of living in the CU? I don't think its anything to be too concerned about.

I agree though, that if you are shooting for the top of BigLaw in Chicago you should go to Chicago, NU or Mich. I don't think UIUC did very hot at OCI either, but i'm not sure how they compared to ND. I think you will be dealing with pretty comparable employment prospects at those two.

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:45 pm

This OCI business, where is that data coming from, and even if that's been the case, in a year or two couldn't that be a different story?

Avg starting salary for a UIUC grad is 75k 105K for ND, at least according to statistics provided by those schools, it sounds like ND might be a better bet there, or am I missing something here about U of I being definitively better?

lawman335
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby lawman335 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:52 am

Chicago is best, then Northwestern, then Michigan , so u can practice in chicago thats not gonna be a problem...........

09042014
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:08 am

Chicago > NU > Michigan > UIUC > ND = WUSTL > Vandy = Texas > BC =BU For chicago.

If you don't get into UChicago, NU, or Michigan you have to go to UIUC. UIUC is the best nont14 for chicago. I'd take the UIUC full ride over Cornell and GTown as well.

You could consider ND if they matched UIUC's full ride, but if they won't it would be a poor choice.

The employment stats from these schools are mostly bullshit. In the old economy you had to be top third from UIUC/ND to get a market job in Chicago but in this economy even top 10% is really iffy. By the time you hit OCI it'll probably be somewhere in the middle of those two data points, but it may be just as bad as last year if the economy takes a dive. And in that case having as little debt as possible is huge.

ND's advantage over UIUC is in national placement, but since you want chicago, that means nothing.

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observationalist
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby observationalist » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:47 am

Illini372 wrote:This OCI business, where is that data coming from, and even if that's been the case, in a year or two couldn't that be a different story?

Avg starting salary for a UIUC grad is 75k 105K for ND, at least according to statistics provided by those schools, it sounds like ND might be a better bet there, or am I missing something here about U of I being definitively better?


Just a reminder, when citing average salaries you have to include the percent of the class who reported salaries so you can figure out what portion of the class made up that average. The reason most people think the salaries are inflated isn't because schools are lying about the numbers, but when only the top portions of the class report salaries the resulting stats give a rosier picture than reality. I know people get this already, so apologies for being paternalistic. I'm curious to see what sort of new stats schools start putting up a year from now, when the first post-ITE class (2010) finally enters the books. The data coming out in the next month or so are still relying on pre-ITE 2009 numbers... compound that with low salary reporting rates at some schools and a large number of prospectives could misleadingly think these schools are worth paying full tuition to attend.

Unconditional full rides are pretty hard to turn down, even for a T10 at sticker. How strong do you consider your networking/interviewing ability? Prior work experience? Assume for now that OCI has gone extinct and will not return (may or may not be true... but if it stays it will only be for the top X% of the class, with X getting larger as you approach the more national schools). Are you prepared to go out and seek work the old-fashioned way? If so, then it's worth going to the local school for free. If not, ND will help you through alumni contacts. They also benefit from being a very small class. Which is nice. Of your current options, Vandy's OCI is still alive but it's uncertain how many Chicago firms are going to sign up for next year. Fortunately it's only an hour flight to Nashville and the school maintains a strong relationship with some of the big firms up there, but that doesn't mean those firms have any plans to start expanding summer class sizes again. And midlaw firms don't actively recruit from Vanderbilt, so you'll want to work in Chicago your 1L summer and apply to firms while you're in town to save on travel costs during 2L fall.

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im_blue
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby im_blue » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:52 am

I would take Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, or Illinois with full ride. Notre Dame wouldn't be a bad choice, either, but the rest shouldn't be considered for Chicago placement.

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:54 am

Wow, that's a pretty bold statement about UIUC being the best non t14 for Chicago. Anyone else agree with this remark?

Thanks again for the comments.

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im_blue
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby im_blue » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:55 am

Illini372 wrote:Wow, that's a pretty bold statement about UIUC being the best non t14 for Chicago. Anyone else agree with this remark?

Thanks again for the comments.


Absolutely, Illinois is hands-down the best non-T14 for Chicago, so the fact that you have a full-ride means you should only consider T14's over it.

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:30 am

I guess I'm just a bit surprised that ND isn't a bigger player here, maybe I'm in that mindset because it was significantly better as an undergrad, not the case here though I guess

09042014
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:34 am

Illini372 wrote:I guess I'm just a bit surprised that ND isn't a bigger player here, maybe I'm in that mindset because it was significantly better as an undergrad, not the case here though I guess


It's slightly better in law school job placement because it has a small bit of national reach, and Illinois is pretty much limited to Chicago.

Also Notre Dame undergrad is severely overranked. Still better than Illinois but I wouldn't pay for ND undergrad.

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:59 am

I agree with that sentiment on ND undergrad, I guess part of me wants a change of scenery from Champaign, but I guess there are far worse scenarios that I could be facing, I just want the best odds for excellent employment in my home city

09042014
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:02 am

Illini372 wrote:I agree with that sentiment on ND undergrad, I guess part of me wants a change of scenery from Champaign, but I guess there are far worse scenarios that I could be facing, I just want the best odds for excellent employment in my home city


I know what you mean, I'm UIUC class of 08, and until I got NU ED I thought I was going to be going back to CU next august.

If you got a full ride from UIUC your number must be good enough for Michigan right?

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:45 am

Eh, 167, 4.04, cell biology, teaching assistant, good softs, Michigan median LSAT is 169 so who knows.

Illini372
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Illini372 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:46 am

And who knows about U of C or NU, I know I'm a bit below their median, I thought the NU interview went really well though, and the GPA is what it is

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Veyron
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:48 am

There is no fuckin' way that op should go to NU over Michigan without $$. NU is not as respected as Michigan in Chicago. I know someone who used to do Chicago biglaw and she defiantly looked down her nose at NU.

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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby EzraStiles » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:50 am

Veyron wrote:There is no fuckin' way that op should go to NU over Michigan without $$. NU is not as respected as Michigan in Chicago. I know someone who used to do Chicago biglaw and she defiantly looked down her nose at NU.


Wait, what? I'm pretty sure hiring statistics will prove your friend a fool.

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Veyron
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:51 am

I would like to see the statistic that says that it is easier to get biglaw in Chi-town from NU than Michigan. Said statistic should not be based on self selection.

edit: Also keep in mind that NU is more $ than Michigan. Indeed it is proly the most expensive law school in the country after cost of living.

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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:59 am

Veyron wrote:There is no fuckin' way that op should go to NU over Michigan without $$. NU is not as respected as Michigan in Chicago. I know someone who used to do Chicago biglaw and she defiantly looked down her nose at NU.


NU has better V100 placement than Michigan, regardless of location. Inside Chicago NU is even better.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

Image

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Veyron
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:02 am

^ According to this, NU outpaces HYS for Biglaw. I am going to go out on a limb and say that this list is worthless. There is such a thing as self selection.

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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby EzraStiles » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:06 am

Veyron wrote:I would like to see the statistic that says that it is easier to get biglaw in Chi-town from NU than Michigan. Said statistic should not be based on self selection.

edit: Also keep in mind that NU is more $ than Michigan. Indeed it is proly the most expensive law school in the country after cost of living.


Ah I better see what your saying. The two do have relatively similar placement, but i think if an applicant is completely set on practicing in Chicago, and they cannot get into U of C, NU is their best option, mainly based on simple proximity to firms and their recruiting efforts.

My main beef was with your claim that UMich gets more respect in Chicago than NU. I guarantee if you poll a bigger group that will prove false, or at least not as definite as you make it sound.

EDIT: Never compare other schools to HYS based off what you see on a chart. That chart lists the number of graduates and how many go into Big Law. HYS graduates, especially Yale and Stanford, don't try for Big Law nearly as much as other T14 schools. The chart is accurate. Never question the chart.

09042014
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby 09042014 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:20 am

Veyron wrote:^ According to this, NU outpaces HYS for Biglaw. I am going to go out on a limb and say that this list is worthless. There is such a thing as self selection.


Because HYS students get clerking jobs. Michigan places 5% into appellate clerks and NU 4%. So you can add one percent to Michigan.

The first link is 2L summers only, which gives a better idea.

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Veyron
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Re: I plan on practicing in Chicago, Advice please

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:27 am

EzraStiles wrote:
Veyron wrote:I would like to see the statistic that says that it is easier to get biglaw in Chi-town from NU than Michigan. Said statistic should not be based on self selection.

edit: Also keep in mind that NU is more $ than Michigan. Indeed it is proly the most expensive law school in the country after cost of living.


Ah I better see what your saying. The two do have relatively similar placement, but i think if an applicant is completely set on practicing in Chicago, and they cannot get into U of C, NU is their best option, mainly based on simple proximity to firms and their recruiting efforts.

My main beef was with your claim that UMich gets more respect in Chicago than NU. I guarantee if you poll a bigger group that will prove false, or at least not as definite as you make it sound.

EDIT: Never compare other schools to HYS based off what you see on a chart. That chart lists the number of graduates and how many go into Big Law. HYS graduates, especially Yale and Stanford, don't try for Big Law nearly as much as other T14 schools. The chart is accurate. Never question the chart.


The proximity argument is bunk. Michigan also primarily feeds into Chicago.

And yes, the chart is accurate, its just measuring the wrong thing.




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