SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

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calihereicome
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SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby calihereicome » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:49 pm

Hi All! Could someone give me advice on which of these schools would be best for me?

I thankfully have gotten into all three and am concerned about: job prospects after school, scholarship opportunities, cost of attendance, and networking opportunties while in school.

Deposit deadlines are coming up fast for me! Thank you!

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Xizenta
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby Xizenta » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:33 pm

Loyola has the best prestige between the three among lawyers right now... my concern is that since they have been dropping in the rankings these past few years while Pepperdine and San Diego have BOTH been rising, that may change by the time class of 2013 is looking for jobs. That's about all I can shed on it... the cost of attendance at all three are pretty similar.

I applied to all three schools and if I had to choose between them I would go with Pepperdine since it seems to me that the students would be less competitive there, and USD is out of my area.

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1WingedAngel
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby 1WingedAngel » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:00 pm

Where do you like to live and what are you interested in working with?

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eberl032
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby eberl032 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:14 pm

Which of those three is best for private practice?

Im looking into Pepperdine, but don't want public law at all.

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rx3r
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby rx3r » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:20 pm

Xizenta wrote:Loyola has the best prestige between the three among lawyers right now... my concern is that since they have been dropping in the rankings these past few years while Pepperdine and San Diego have BOTH been rising, that may change by the time class of 2013 is looking for jobs. That's about all I can shed on it... the cost of attendance at all three are pretty similar.

I applied to all three schools and if I had to choose between them I would go with Pepperdine since it seems to me that the students would be less competitive there, and USD is out of my area.


Definitely Loyola if you want to work in LA. USD if you want to work in SD. From what I can tell from lawyers in LA, LLS>Pepperdine regardless of rankings, and I suspect that the lawyer/judge opinion will continue to be higher at the point you get out & on the job market. Just my $.02.

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erico
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby erico » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:22 pm

eberl032 wrote:Which of those three is best for private practice?

Im looking into Pepperdine, but don't want public law at all.


I have a friend who is an attorney and says that many attorneys he deals with give the vibe that Pepp > USD. He went to USD. I realize this is not very useful but it's all I can offer.
Last edited by erico on Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mattalones
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby Mattalones » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:42 pm

I was in the same boat last cycle because these were the first three schools that I heard from. Since other schools took a while to get back to me, I researched them a lot and came to the conclusion that USD would have been best for me. Here's why:

It came down to job prospects and cost of attendance

Job Prospects
From doing research into mid-sized firms in SD, USD was the big local school. Everyone I spoke to said that (obviously T14 schools coming into SD can cause some stiff competition, but there's still a lot of USD recruiting in SD law).

Choice between Pepperdine and Loyola for firms will usually put Loyola on top. That, however, doesn't matter because the local powerhouses are UCLA and USC, which usually create even more stiff competition for Loyola grads thanT14 grads applying into LA do.

Because of pure market saturation, both Pepperdine and Loyola are worse than USD for job prospects.

Cost of attendance
Loyola: $5,000/yr
USD: $15,000/yr
Pepperdine: Some shady scholarship for being Mexican that didn't disclose the amount awarded.

Just for the record, if these would have been my only three choices, and the $$$ was the same for each school, I would have gone to USD.

Pepperdine: They kick out 1/3 of each 1L class each year, and they offer so many more scholarships than they allow people to keep that 50% of those people lose their scholarships ... shady business.

Loyola way too much money for being in the same city with UCLA and USC

USD ... already made a case for them :-)

romanholiday
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby romanholiday » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:31 pm

My dad told me that his coworker went to USD and had trouble looking for work in the legal field (this was 2 years ago). I never asked what ranking that person was, but it's hard to have a positive opinion about job prospects for the school after hearing that story. :?

I should add that my dad works at a computer company and the co-worker is a sales person or something right now.

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1ferret!
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby 1ferret! » Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Pepperdine: They kick out 1/3 of each 1L class each year, and they offer so many more scholarships than they allow people to keep that 50% of those people lose their scholarships ... shady business.

False.

Very few people get "kicked out" of pepperdine. Those who at the end of the first year are at the very bottom (call it the bottom 2%) are likely to be suspended. However, this only occurs after an evaluation and appeals process, after which a candidate may receive extra instructional help.

Pepperdine does offer alot of scholarships. Like most scholarships, keeping them depends on you. The merit scholarships offered to entering students, which may be substantial, are continued as long as you stay in the top third of the class. Do you really expect to keep a scholarship if you are not a good student? Yes, more of these are offered than can be kept, but they are offered based on perceived potential that not everyone lives up to.

It is up to the student to earn and thereby deserve to keep receiving $$$. The idea is to reward high achievement, not to give you a free pass sight unseen for the entirety of your academic career.

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Mattalones
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby Mattalones » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:43 pm

1ferret! wrote:Pepperdine: They kick out 1/3 of each 1L class each year, and they offer so many more scholarships than they allow people to keep that 50% of those people lose their scholarships ... shady business.

False.

Very few people get "kicked out" of pepperdine. Those who at the end of the first year are at the very bottom (call it the bottom 2%) are likely to be suspended. However, this only occurs after an evaluation and appeals process, after which a candidate may receive extra instructional help.

Pepperdine does offer alot of scholarships. Like most scholarships, keeping them depends on you. The merit scholarships offered to entering students, which may be substantial, are continued as long as you stay in the top third of the class. Do you really expect to keep a scholarship if you are not a good student? Yes, more of these are offered than can be kept, but they are offered based on perceived potential that not everyone lives up to.

It is up to the student to earn and thereby deserve to keep receiving $$$. The idea is to reward high achievement, not to give you a free pass sight unseen for the entirety of your academic career.


What I was told by dean Star after probing him for a while:
1) If someone ends up in the bottom of the class over the course of the year, they will have to take a leave of absence.
2) The bottom is defined by a certain %, which is about 15% (don't remember the exact #)

What I inferred form those statements:
About 15% of the PLS has to take a leave of absence from the school for being at the bottom over a year b/c there will always be a bottom 15% or so.

Something else I heard while sitting in a room with the dean and other admissions/scholarship people:
The percentage of incoming law students to whom they offer scholarships is greater than 33% (or 1/3).
Only the top 30% or so will keep their scholarships.

What I inferred form that:
They offer more scholarships than can possibly be maintained. For even the very best students, keeping a scholarship will rely on some degree of luck (e.g. you may be more prepared than 99% of the class for an exam, but you make a stupid mistake that costs you big, while another top students gets lucky in his favor). Either way, there will be a certain minimum percentage of people who must lose their scholarships (notice that the key word here is "must," not "might," "may," or "could.")

You are right to say, "You don't know which ones because it depends on how people do."
My response is to say, "It shouldn't be like running face first into battle, where there will be certain % of casualties."

Scholarship structures like theirs make for an unnecessarily competitive environment. A good scholarships will have less strict conditions. For instance, a school might only offer scholarship to 20% of the class, but require them to only stay above the median (you will need some wiggle room because you don't know what will happen; things don't always work out perfectly).

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1ferret!
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby 1ferret! » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:11 pm

"1) If someone ends up in the bottom of the class over the course of the year, they will have to take a leave of absence.
2) The bottom is defined by a certain %, which is about 15% (don't remember the exact #)"

#1: true (subject to the review process previously noted)
#2: probably around 5% given the grade curve and the number of people involved. (this puts the number of people as somewhere around 10, and those who have a cumulative average in the C- to F range. That might make sense. Doubtful that its much higher than that and seems to limit it to those who are obviously unsuccessful in this environment.

"Something else I heard while sitting in a room with the dean and other admissions/scholarship people:
The percentage of incoming law students to whom they offer scholarships is greater than 33% (or 1/3).
Only the top 30% or so will keep their scholarships"

True and almost true.
Top third get to keep the schollys, and more are offered than are able to be kept.

"Scholarship structures like theirs make for an unnecessarily competitive environment."

This suggests that the way scholarships are administered makes the school objectionably competitive. Administering them in this way ostensibly allows them to distribute funds in a more efficient fashion to prioritize law school goals, including but not limited to freeing up that money to fund future scholarship.
Does it contribute to competition? Perhaps necessarily. However the level of competition at Pepp is not so brutal that the method of scholarship administration is suspect in creating an uncomfortable environment. Keeping a scholarship is one of many factors that might play a part in contributing to competitiveness.

Bottom line IMHO: The administration of scholarships at Pepp are neither unjustifiable nor contribute significantly to an overly competitive environment. If this plays a factor in your decision about where to attend, so be it. However I don't think the process is underhanded or shady, and all the info is given up front.

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arhmcpo
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby arhmcpo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:29 pm

Mattalones wrote:
1ferret! wrote:Pepperdine: They kick out 1/3 of each 1L class each year, and they offer so many more scholarships than they allow people to keep that 50% of those people lose their scholarships ... shady business.

What I was told by dean Star after probing him for a while:
1) If someone ends up in the bottom of the class over the course of the year, they will have to take a leave of absence.
2) The bottom is defined by a certain %, which is about 15% (don't remember the exact #)

What I inferred form those statements:
About 15% of the PLS has to take a leave of absence from the school for being at the bottom over a year b/c there will always be a bottom 15% or so.

Something else I heard while sitting in a room with the dean and other admissions/scholarship people:
The percentage of incoming law students to whom they offer scholarships is greater than 33% (or 1/3).
Only the top 30% or so will keep their scholarships.

What I inferred form that:
They offer more scholarships than can possibly be maintained. For even the very best students, keeping a scholarship will rely on some degree of luck (e.g. you may be more prepared than 99% of the class for an exam, but you make a stupid mistake that costs you big, while another top students gets lucky in his favor). Either way, there will be a certain minimum percentage of people who must lose their scholarships (notice that the key word here is "must," not "might," "may," or "could.")

You are right to say, "You don't know which ones because it depends on how people do."
My response is to say, "It shouldn't be like running face first into battle, where there will be certain % of casualties."

Scholarship structures like theirs make for an unnecessarily competitive environment. A good scholarships will have less strict conditions. For instance, a school might only offer scholarship to 20% of the class, but require them to only stay above the median (you will need some wiggle room because you don't know what will happen; things don't always work out perfectly).


If you did talk to the past dean and administrators as you say then I think you are confused and/or misunderstood something. There is no conspiracy to kick out 15% of the Pepperdine Law students. You do understand that we are a tuition based law school? Like many others (who don't have giant endowment funds i.e. Harvard, Yale) the schools income is form student tuition so that kicking out students costs the school lots of money. I believe approx 6% of the class was below a 2.0 last semester; if they stay below a 2.0 for their entire 1L year they get suspended or something and I have to appeal to get back in for 2L (which I would assume is the case for ALL LAW SCHOOLS since under a 2.0 is NOT Passing at any type of University). If a student is suspended for bad grades they can appeal and if they are successful they are are matched w/ a student and teacher mentor who work with them to improve their grades so they can successfully graduate.

My property professor told us before 1L grades came out about a student he mentored a couple years ago who went on to be very successful - to try to drive home the point that we as individuals are more important than a set of grades (which is why I'm familiar with the process). It is not very competitive here, not sure why. You don't know who has scholarships and who doesn't, everyone wants to do there best, that's all there is to it.

To answer the Scholarship question - IF you get a Merit-Based Scholarship there is a top 1/3rd requirement to renew it for 2L/3L, no one hides this fact, if you ask they tell you. They do not stack sections so everyone has an equal shot. We had a big discussion in my section about this. The school brings in higher quality students because they offer big schollys, even if you don't get yours renewed you still probably got your 1L year at a much bigger discount then you otherwise could have got.

Your implication that, "For even the very best students, keeping a scholarship will rely on some degree of luck (e.g. you may be more prepared than 99% of the class for an exam, but you make a stupid mistake that costs you big, while another top students gets lucky in his favor)." makes me assume you are an 0L. Getting good grades is not based on luck, in law school or anywhere else. Sure, Luck may be the difference btw an A or an A+ or an A- or a B+, but to imply that the top 33% at a school are not smarter than the bottom 33% is an asinine statement. I sincerely hope you will not attend law school believing your success or failure is an imaginary role of the dice rather than studying hard and being decently prepared for exam day.

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arhmcpo
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby arhmcpo » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:43 pm

calihereicome wrote:Hi All! Could someone give me advice on which of these schools would be best for me?

I thankfully have gotten into all three and am concerned about: job prospects after school, scholarship opportunities, cost of attendance, and networking opportunties while in school.

Deposit deadlines are coming up fast for me! Thank you!


Depends on what region your interested in because within their region each of these schools probably places similarly.
USD is very strong in San Diego but your job prospects supposedly end at the San Diego city limits. Also according to Top Law Schools Profiles its a bit over priced for what it is.

Pepperdine & Loyola are going to be placing primarily in LA and OC counties. Loyola is known for a large alumni network in LA to help with finding jobs. Pepperdine has a small alumni network but is arguably just as dedicated (I got my summer job from an alumni). Loyola's model like Harvard focuses on large law school classes to create a large network as a resource. Pepperdine's model is like Yale/Standford, of smaller classes (they are cutting total enrollment to 600) and a smaller alumni network that is supposedly more elite and dedicated per capita. I'm not familiar enough with USD to know whether they subscribe to the large or small student body model.

All 3 schools though are about the same price, all are regional, so scholarships and the region you want to work should probably make your decision. In LA, Loyola is the old solid school, while Pepperdine is more of an upstart only really rising to more prominence in the last 5 years. And obviously USD has always been the solid SD school.

About me: I applied to Pepperdine and Loyola, was not interested in USD cuz I wasn't prepared to live in SD for a significant period of time post graduation. I got similar schollys from Pepperdine and Loyola; Loyola definitely had cooler admit events and their network seemed really cool, also thought there law school buildings were cool, but I chose to gamble w/ Pepperdine on the basis of its rise in ranks and the idea that my degree will increase in value as an alum.

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Mattalones
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Re: SoCal Schools: USD v. Loyola v. Pepperdine

Postby Mattalones » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:47 pm

I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread or offend anyone. I simply meant to rely what I was told and what I thought. However, your comments also bring an interesting, and refreshing, perspective to the information that I contributed.

Going back to the point of this thread: Go USD given the choice between these schools!




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