Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby miamiman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:50 am

Hey guys, I wasn't planning on doing a JDMBA until I got into some of the top schools though I definitely had it in the back of my mind.

I do have 2 years we and I've already been admitted to a few law programs that have great bschools. what's the general process in terms of competitiveness to get into the school's business program?

User avatar
dgouzoul
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby dgouzoul » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:51 am

word on the street is that unless the school's MBA program is highly reputable (penn comes to mind), a jd/mba really won't do a whole lot for you.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby miamiman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:52 am

top 5 programs?

lawschooliseasy
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby lawschooliseasy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:58 am


User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:09 pm

miamiman wrote:Hey guys, I wasn't planning on doing a JDMBA until I got into some of the top schools though I definitely had it in the back of my mind.

I do have 2 years we and I've already been admitted to a few law programs that have great bschools. what's the general process in terms of competitiveness to get into the school's business program?


it is supposedly a bit easier but how much is anyone's guess. it is mostly worth it for someone that wants greater career flexibility and does not want to stay in law forever (or possibly even start in law).

the best MBA programs are:
Harvard
Stanford
Wharton
MIT
Northwestern/Kellogg
Chicago/Booth
Columbia

any of those are worth it to do in addition to the JD for the chance to lateral into business if you are so inclined IMO. Put it this way: if someone said "hey, how would you like one of the best MBA degrees in the world, and you only have to go for one year" wouldn't you say yes?

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:12 pm

btw, if you didn't know, it is actually possible to do a wide combination of jd /mba from two different schools.

some have even done the king of jd/mba: Yale JD/Harvard MBA lol

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby Xnegd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:38 pm

miamiman wrote:Hey guys, I wasn't planning on doing a JDMBA until I got into some of the top schools though I definitely had it in the back of my mind.

I do have 2 years we and I've already been admitted to a few law programs that have great bschools. what's the general process in terms of competitiveness to get into the school's business program?


I'm doing my MBA/JD. It' a difficult to decide where, because for instance when you look at Yale, which is the holy grail of Law Schools, their business school is not at all considered that prestigious. It's in T30. Although a school like Harvard or Berkeley (Boalt/Haas), they have amazing dual programs, and you really just cant go wrong.

Schools like MBA/JD candidates though because it's an extra year of tuition, and it's less of a drain on their resources.

A few schools let you do you MBA/JD program at different places, either because they're really cool, or have an agreement program set up. i.e. Stanford International Law program, to me, is really wonderful will let you take your MBA in a different country to get that experience, and will work with you to use the class you took to apply for your joint degree.

Most top schools though make you take it from them (as you probably already know). I think Emory lets you take you your MBA in Ireland, or England or something.

Anyways, good luck on the GMAT, and you business school application, much much much easier than law school, and I would get that out of the way before JD prep.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:42 pm

Xnegd wrote:Anyways, good luck on the GMAT, and you business school application, much much much easier than law school, and I would get that out of the way before JD prep.


i had the complete opposite experience. to each his own i guess :P

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby Xnegd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:50 pm

englawyer wrote:
Xnegd wrote:Anyways, good luck on the GMAT, and you business school application, much much much easier than law school, and I would get that out of the way before JD prep.


i had the complete opposite experience. to each his own i guess :P


For me it's 100% because of the LSAT opposed to the GMAT. I scored in the top 88% on the GMAT without studying, but after a year of LSAT hard-core prep, I'm still in the 50% range.

The GMAT is Math and Grammar and Essay, all of which I excel at, and have been doing since school began.

This whole "logic" thing via LSAT is foreign to me lol..

User avatar
anibulbul
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:12 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby anibulbul » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:33 pm

Xnegd wrote:
miamiman wrote:Hey guys, I wasn't planning on doing a JDMBA until I got into some of the top schools though I definitely had it in the back of my mind.

I do have 2 years we and I've already been admitted to a few law programs that have great bschools. what's the general process in terms of competitiveness to get into the school's business program?


I'm doing my MBA/JD. It' a difficult to decide where, because for instance when you look at Yale, which is the holy grail of Law Schools, their business school is not at all considered that prestigious. It's in T30. Although a school like Harvard or Berkeley (Boalt/Haas), they have amazing dual programs, and you really just cant go wrong.

Schools like MBA/JD candidates though because it's an extra year of tuition, and it's less of a drain on their resources.

A few schools let you do you MBA/JD program at different places, either because they're really cool, or have an agreement program set up. i.e. Stanford International Law program, to me, is really wonderful will let you take your MBA in a different country to get that experience, and will work with you to use the class you took to apply for your joint degree.

Most top schools though make you take it from them (as you probably already know). I think Emory lets you take you your MBA in Ireland, or England or something.

Anyways, good luck on the GMAT, and you business school application, much much much easier than law school, and I would get that out of the way before JD prep.

Hey Xnegd, I have a question for you. Not sure you'd know the answer but I'll give it a shot.
I am currently a 1L at a decent law school, but our b-school isn't that great, so I was wondering if I could do my MBA at one of the top b-schools and apply some of my JD credits (from my current school) to my MBA at that other school so I can complete both degrees in 4-4.5 years. Do you know by any chance what top b-schools will let me do it?

User avatar
whitman
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:08 am

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby whitman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:38 pm

It seems like people are saying that only a top MBA is worth it. Do you mean literally the 6 listed above are the only ones that help? So no to schools like UNC, Vandy, etc?

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby miamiman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:39 pm

So this is all helpful. Perhaps I can be more specific in my questioning.

The schools I am most strongly considering are Northwestern and Chicago but also a few others in the T10. And, clearly, they all have fantastic MBAs (generally). That said, most of these programs report an avg. gmat of 710 or so. Do they relax this standard at all for current JD students?

Also, how big of a boost is URM for b-school admissions?

Any knowledge from 1Ls who applied?

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:49 pm

miamiman wrote:So this is all helpful. Perhaps I can be more specific in my questioning.

The schools I am most strongly considering are Northwestern and Chicago but also a few others in the T10. And, clearly, they all have fantastic MBAs (generally). That said, most of these programs report an avg. gmat of 710 or so. Do they relax this standard at all for current JD students?

Also, how big of a boost is URM for b-school admissions?

Any knowledge from 1Ls who applied?


I'm doing a JD/MBA at CCN.

Generally schools will not relax GMAT requirements (unless, like NYU, they don't require the GMAT for joint candidates). If you want to go to NU or Chicago, you should score above 700 on the GMAT to maximize your chances. Schools will generally give you a bit of a pass on length/quality work experience, but it still matters a lot (normally it's the most important element of the application).

The big thing to emphasize is business schools are much more qualitative and less numbers focused. The essays matter a huge amount, especially as a joint-degree candidate, since it will be incumbent on you to explain why you need the dual degree. Top schools such as Kellogg and Booth will reject 3.9/780s with 3 years of IB experience if you write crappy essays.

And yes, URM status is a boost for b-school admissions. I can't really say whether it's more or less than law school.
Last edited by imchuckbass58 on Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

miamiman
Posts: 1486
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby miamiman » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:52 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
miamiman wrote:So this is all helpful. Perhaps I can be more specific in my questioning.

The schools I am most strongly considering are Northwestern and Chicago but also a few others in the T10. And, clearly, they all have fantastic MBAs (generally). That said, most of these programs report an avg. gmat of 710 or so. Do they relax this standard at all for current JD students?

Also, how big of a boost is URM for b-school admissions?

Any knowledge from 1Ls who applied?


I'm doing a JD/MBA at CCN.

Generally schools will not relax GMAT requirements (unless, like NYU, they don't require the GMAT for joint candidates). If you want to go to NU or Chicago, you should score above 700 on the GMAT to maximize your chances. Schools will generally give you a big of a pass on length/quality work experience, but it still matters a lot (normally it's the most important element of the application).

The big thing to emphasize is business schools are much more qualitative and less numbers focused. The essays matter a huge amount, especially as a joint-degree candidate, since it will be incumbent on you to explain why you need the dual degree. Top schools such as Kellogg and Booth will reject 3.9/780s with 3 years of IB experience if you write crappy essays.

And yes, URM status is a boost for b-school admissions. I can't really say whether it's more or less than law school.


what do you find is the adv. of doing the jdmba? or what have you heard from your classmates is?

User avatar
ogman05
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:02 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby ogman05 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:57 pm

Would Darden qualify as a worth it JD/MBA. Close to top but not top 5 or 10 for that matter. 12 I beleive. Would you do it?

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby Xnegd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:08 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
miamiman wrote:So this is all helpful. Perhaps I can be more specific in my questioning.

The schools I am most strongly considering are Northwestern and Chicago but also a few others in the T10. And, clearly, they all have fantastic MBAs (generally). That said, most of these programs report an avg. gmat of 710 or so. Do they relax this standard at all for current JD students?

Also, how big of a boost is URM for b-school admissions?

Any knowledge from 1Ls who applied?


I'm doing a JD/MBA at CCN.

Generally schools will not relax GMAT requirements (unless, like NYU, they don't require the GMAT for joint candidates). If you want to go to NU or Chicago, you should score above 700 on the GMAT to maximize your chances. Schools will generally give you a big of a pass on length/quality work experience, but it still matters a lot (normally it's the most important element of the application).

The big thing to emphasize is business schools are much more qualitative and less numbers focused. The essays matter a huge amount, especially as a joint-degree candidate, since it will be incumbent on you to explain why you need the dual degree. Top schools such as Kellogg and Booth will reject 3.9/780s with 3 years of IB experience if you write crappy essays.

And yes, URM status is a boost for b-school admissions. I can't really say whether it's more or less than law school.


+1 this is a really [really] good post and all fronts.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:15 pm

ogman05 wrote:Would Darden qualify as a worth it JD/MBA. Close to top but not top 5 or 10 for that matter. 12 I beleive. Would you do it?


personally: no

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby Xnegd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:16 pm

anibulbul wrote:
Xnegd wrote:
miamiman wrote:Hey guys, I wasn't planning on doing a JDMBA until I got into some of the top schools though I definitely had it in the back of my mind.

I do have 2 years we and I've already been admitted to a few law programs that have great bschools. what's the general process in terms of competitiveness to get into the school's business program?


I'm doing my MBA/JD. It' a difficult to decide where, because for instance when you look at Yale, which is the holy grail of Law Schools, their business school is not at all considered that prestigious. It's in T30. Although a school like Harvard or Berkeley (Boalt/Haas), they have amazing dual programs, and you really just cant go wrong.

Schools like MBA/JD candidates though because it's an extra year of tuition, and it's less of a drain on their resources.

A few schools let you do you MBA/JD program at different places, either because they're really cool, or have an agreement program set up. i.e. Stanford International Law program, to me, is really wonderful will let you take your MBA in a different country to get that experience, and will work with you to use the class you took to apply for your joint degree.

Most top schools though make you take it from them (as you probably already know). I think Emory lets you take you your MBA in Ireland, or England or something.

Anyways, good luck on the GMAT, and you business school application, much much much easier than law school, and I would get that out of the way before JD prep.

Hey Xnegd, I have a question for you. Not sure you'd know the answer but I'll give it a shot.
I am currently a 1L at a decent law school, but our b-school isn't that great, so I was wondering if I could do my MBA at one of the top b-schools and apply some of my JD credits (from my current school) to my MBA at that other school so I can complete both degrees in 4-4.5 years. Do you know by any chance what top b-schools will let me do it?


No idea, but is definitely possible especially with 2nd tiered schools.

I'm doing my MBA at Trinity, it's in Ireland and basically at equal level of prestige as the London School of Economics (somewhere between Boalt and Oxford in rankings).

Due to the level of my potential MBA I had a couple law schools e-mail me saying I can use that year as my first law school year and graduate after three years; however, these schools were all bottom 2nd tier, and I don't really have much interest in going, even though financially I should probably at least think about it.

Stanford has also told me they'd shave off a year, assuming I get into their program. Something currently impossible with my LSAT.

So I don't see why the latter wouldn't be possible too.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:41 pm

ogman05 wrote:Would Darden qualify as a worth it JD/MBA. Close to top but not top 5 or 10 for that matter. 12 I beleive. Would you do it?


I would say it's worth it if you want to go into law, but not if you want to go into business. If you're going into law, the MBA is kind of "secondary," so employers (predominantly transactional practices of big firms and certain gov't agencies such as the SEC) care less about the prestige of the MBA program - it's more a signaling mechanism indicating you understand accounting, finance, etc.

If you are going into a business career, the MBA is "primary," so the prestige of the program matters a lot. Darden is not a bad program, but it is not considered elite, especially outside of the South and Mid-Atlantic.

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:55 pm

miamiman wrote:
what do you find is the adv. of doing the jdmba? or what have you heard from your classmates is?


My impression of the advantages are as follows:

-It gives you options: If you are not 100% sure whether you want to do law or business, you have the flexibility to do both credibly. I would add, however, that you should never, ever, say this on your app, since it will make you an auto-ding.

-If you go to an elite program, it distinguishes you: Correctly or not, there's a perception that if you've gone through two very selective vetting processes with different focuses, you're even more qualified. Also, from what I've been told, certain firms love JD/MBAs since their biggest complaint from clients is that their lawyers do not understand their business concerns. Management consulting firms also love elite JD/MBAs. Of course, this is not universally true (see below).

-It's helpful for moving in-house: You have a lot more credibility moving in-house if you can demonstrate business competency. In-house positions are more heavily influence by business concerns. Obviously, an MBA is not necessary (most in-house lawyers do not have MBAs), but it is one way of signifying you have this knowledge.

-It's a different type of learning experience: Law school is very academic and solitary (in terms of your work at least). Business school is very practical and collaborative. I like the latter learning experience, and I find business inherently interesting. Lots of people say business school is also a lot more fun than law school socially.

-There are a few jobs out there where a JD/MBA, while not necessary, is a big boost in terms of the practical knowledge you need to do the job. Examples include certain types of real estate functions, bankruptcy work (either bankruptcy law, turnaround consulting, or distressed investing), and securities law.


There are, however, several disadvantages I'd point out:

-It's long and expensive: You will be spending an extra year in school, during which not only will you not be making $160,000 (assuming you would be working at a big firm), but you will be paying $50,000 to be in school. Many people perceive that this alone negates any of the benefits I listed above (obviously I disagree, but it's a reasonable perspective).

-It pigeonholes you: A JD/MBA is mostly helpful for transactional practices, and can actually be a turnoff for litigation (unless it's securities or antitrust litigation), since the skill set really isn't helpful in that context and makes people question your interest. Forget about public interest.

-It can turn off some employers: Aside from PI orgs and litigation practices, even some big firms do not like JD/MBAs because they are perceived as a flight risk. This was more accentuated during the boom, where huge percentages of transactional lawyers at top firms (Cravath, Wachtell, S&C) moved to investment banks or PE shops to make twice what they could at a firm. Still, I think employers in this category are in the distinct minority (among big firms).


Really there is no right or wrong, it really depends on your personal situation. If you are independently wealthy, that really removes the biggest downside of doing a JD/MBA and you should probably go for it. If you want to be an appellate litigator, I would seriously question whether a JD/MBA was the right choice. Think through your goals and inclinations with these dynamics in mind.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby englawyer » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:05 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:I would add, however, that you should never, ever, say this on your app, since it will make you an auto-ding.


+1 on that, especially for b-school apps.


i would also add that an MBA probably puts you out of the running for the prize legal positions: academics, clerkships, etc. I can't imagine a SCOTUS judge wanting a JD/MBA clerk.

i am still an applicant, but the way i view it financially is this. if someone says "hey would you like a top MBA for 1 yr/50k ?" i would say yes. I am going mostly on loans though, so i might change my tune once i get into school and get a better feel for job opportunities etc each way.

question for imchuck:

can a JD/MBA still make law review? how is class rank calculated in each program, but especially law school?

imchuckbass58
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:19 pm

englawyer wrote:i would also add that an MBA probably puts you out of the running for the prize legal positions: academics, clerkships, etc. I can't imagine a SCOTUS judge wanting a JD/MBA clerk.


This guy (--LinkRemoved--) is a JD/MBA who clerked for both Posner and Kennedy. Granted I think it had less to do with the JD/MBA and more with the fact he was #1 in his class at Chicago and top 5% at Booth, but it's possible.

englawyer wrote:can a JD/MBA still make law review? how is class rank calculated in each program, but especially law school?


At my school, yes. It's kind of weird, because you have to do the writing competition the summer before you want to start (i.e., summer after your second year, which is my MBA year), but it is possible. From what I understand, your business grades are irrelevant (they're graded H/HP/P/F anyways), and they just go off of your writing competition and 1L grades.

User avatar
Xnegd
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:06 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby Xnegd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:25 pm

imchuckbass58 right about MBA/JD bad practicing Litigation at a big firm.

One of my mentors has her MBA/JD and is a litigator. They don't every really let her practice though, they make her head the Business Review Committee. She wants to work in a big firm, and litigate, but it's one or the other. They want to have her MBA show up as head of the BRC for poaching clients.

User avatar
rockchalk86
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:16 am

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby rockchalk86 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:42 pm

Here is the truth about MBA's... You don't go to a prestigious program to learn. If you get in to Wharton, Harvard etc you clearly know your shit. Basically, the MBA is a way to let some of the best business minds mingle and network for a few years before going back to the real world. Employers like this because you can help them drum up business, especially venture capitol and banking.

As a JD/MBA (if you wanna practice law), you have spent x years networking with some future millionaires who could become clients. Your connections could be seen as invaluable. Biglaw cares about one thing, how much money you bring into the firm.

User avatar
echoi
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:15 pm

Re: Using JD as a backdoor into MBA?

Postby echoi » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:20 am

Pros and Cons of a JD/MBA at Veritas Prep Blog: http://blog.veritasprep.com/2009/04/pro ... jdmba.html

Tier Three -- Coin toss. At many universities -- examples include Chicago, Berkeley, Duke, Cornell, Virginia, and UCLA -- it is hard to know which program has the greater relative strength. They are often rated similarly by the prominent ranking systems and have similar national reach. In these cases, you can often assume that the law student will still enjoy the benefit of the doubt and find good opportunities at the business school. This author experienced this first hand at Chicago, where attendance at the law school served as a sort of de facto qualification for attending the business school.


Really hoping the bolded part is true.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Mr. Archer, mrtux45 and 5 guests