2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

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2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:44 am

Yes, but only if you ED (i.e. can't apply to other schools)
5
5%
Yes, run the cycle 3x = a charm
6
6%
Yes, w/$$$
2
2%
Yes, at sticker
2
2%
Maybe, at sticker
7
7%
No, too complicated
8
8%
Hell no! Tough luck!
68
69%
 
Total votes: 98

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PDaddy
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2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:44 am

MY POSITION IS THIS: SCHOOLS SHOULD SHOOT STRAIGHT. ADMIT A STUDENT OR DON'T. BUT IF A STUDENT APPLIES THREE TIMES, AND THE SCHOOL HAS WL'ED HIM TWICE THROUGH COMPLETE CYCLES, THE SCHOOL NEEDS TO LET HIM IN OR REJECT HIM. IF SCHOOLS CAN'T DO THIS, THE ABA SHOULD FORCE THEM TO ADMIT SUCH STUDENTS. THIS WOULD KEEP SCHOOLS FROM STOCKPILING WL'ED STUDENTS TO PROTECT THEIR YIELDS.

First, I think WL'ing has gotten out of hand. Schools are abusing it.

I have run the entire cycle at nearly every school that has ever waitlisted me (19 schools out of 21 that have WL'ed me in two cycles). I have only been released by two schools (Chicago and Penn).

I have been admitted to 10 schools (eight of them T1) but never accepted an offer for various reasons.

My question is this: should schools that WL someone two times without releasing them be obigated to offer the student a deferred (but guaranteed) seat in a following year's class? That would be fair right?

If schools are worried about being forced to admit too many students, they could WL fewer students. Maybe they could guarantee the seat, but at sticker. Several top schools have WL'ed me twice, and I am sick of it. Now a Top-10 has done it to me a 3rd time.

I have been waiting to accept an offer. I am pretty much Top-20 or bust, but will go lower for a full scholly. So far, the stars haven't lined up correctly.
Last edited by PDaddy on Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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JetstoRJC
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby JetstoRJC » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:48 am

No

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existenz
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby existenz » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:49 am

I think it would be a lot less work for you to just improve your LSAT score by 5-10 points, rather than try to change a decades-in-the-making admissions culture at top 20 law schools.

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Snwboarder78
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby Snwboarder78 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:53 am

Waitlists are not unique to law school. Med schools have waitlists too. That is just how it works. A waitlist is still better than a rejection.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:54 am

JetstoRJC wrote:No


I concur.
Last edited by Richie Tenenbaum on Tue May 29, 2012 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:00 am

Snwboarder78 wrote:Waitlists are not unique to law school. Med schools have waitlists too. That is just how it works. A waitlist is still better than a rejection.


How, if you ultimately don't get in, are you any better off than someone who was straight rejected? I feel like I have been toyed with. And my LSAT score went down a point last summer. I think I might just say "screw it" and go to Illinois or Fordham or something. You should see the stack of WL letters I have. I run the entire cycle but don't get a call.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:00 am

whataboutbahb wrote:This change would make UVA cry.

The Class of 2015 would have to be like 7,000 kids. They'd better start building a law school annex now to make room...

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:03 am

PDaddy wrote:How, if you ultimately don't get in, are you any better off than someone who was straight rejected?

If you are straight rejected, you are not considered once again if a spot opens up in the summer due to an admitted student withdrawing. A WL does not guarantee acceptance if you wait it out on it, but it does create an additional chance of being accepted. The fact that you didn't get in doesn't mean you didn't have your chances of acceptance increased.

If you don't like that it's only an additional chance and nothing more, don't ride the WL. It's your choice. Just withdraw from it (which will ironically increase the odds of admission to the other waitlisted students since they're not competing with you anymore).

It sounds like you are not qualified for the schools you are trying to get into. If you were, one of them would have accepted you by now. Trying again in multiple cycles will not change this; you will continue to be someone who is less qualified than enough other applicants that they will not have space for you. Simply sitting through multiple cycles does not entitle you to override this. If you wait out a waitlist over and over again, and don't ever get an acceptance, that is an indication that the school can consistently find better applicants than you and you should accept that rather than demand the rules be changed to accomodate you.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:07 am

vanwinkle wrote:
whataboutbahb wrote:This change would make UVA cry.

The Class of 2015 would have to be like 7,000 kids. They'd better start building a law school annex now to make room...


Not really. How many applicants get waitlisted twice at a large number of their choice schools without attending any school at all? Then the schools could waitlist a lot fewer students. I think it would make things better.

I asked one Top-20 school how many students get waitlisted two years in a row at their school, and they said between 50 and 75. That's not a lot. And they wouldn't even reach that number if they WL'ed fewer students. And remember, many of those students would choose to go elsewhere or not go to law school. So maybe 1/5 to 1/4 (if that much) of their classes would be previously WL'ed students who chose to accept a deferred seat.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:09 am

PDaddy wrote:Not really. How many applicants get waitlisted twice at a large number of their choice schools without attending any school at all? Then the schools could waitlist a lot fewer students. I think it would make things better.

I asked one Top-20 school how many students get waitlisted two years in a row at their school, and they said between 50 and 75. That's not a lot. And they wouldn't even reach that number if they WL'ed fewer students.

Not now. But once news of this new policy you've proposed gets out? Thousands of kids would start doing it, knowing that they'd just have to keep waiting and getting waitlisted again and again and eventually they'd get admitted to a top law school. They'd game the system, just like kids try to today, and it'd quickly grow out of control.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:10 am

vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:How, if you ultimately don't get in, are you any better off than someone who was straight rejected?

If you are straight rejected, you are not considered once again if a spot opens up in the summer due to an admitted student withdrawing. A WL does not guarantee acceptance if you wait it out on it, but it does create an additional chance of being accepted. The fact that you didn't get in doesn't mean you didn't have your chances of acceptance increased.

If you don't like that it's only an additional chance and nothing more, don't ride the WL. It's your choice. Just withdraw from it (which will ironically increase the odds of admission to the other waitlisted students since they're not competing with you anymore).

It sounds like you are not qualified for the schools you are trying to get into. If you were, one of them would have accepted you by now. Trying again in multiple cycles will not change this; you will continue to be someone who is less qualified than enough other applicants that they will not have space for you. Simply sitting through multiple cycles does not entitle you to override this. If you wait out a waitlist over and over again, and don't ever get an acceptance, that is an indication that the school can consistently find better applicants than you and you should accept that rather than demand the rules be changed to accomodate you.


Not qualified, huh? Well, my numbers are relatively strong, and so are my softs. I do apply a little later than most students...December. But if I wasn't qualified, why would they bother waitlisting me?
Last edited by PDaddy on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:12 am

PDaddy wrote:Not qualified, huh?

That would be the assumption. If your numbers are consistently getting you waitlisted but not admitted, but you are getting admitted into lesser-ranked schools, it stands to reason that you lack the necessary qualifications (in GPA or LSAT form) to be admitted to those top-ranked schools you desire.

(I am assuming the holdback is not a C&F issue because if it were serious enough to prevent your acceptance it would probably continue to do so at lower-ranked schools, but you indicated having gotten acceptances at lower T1 schools.)

You are welcome to prove me wrong by sharing your GPA/LSAT and confirming they are deserving of admission to a top law school.

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existenz
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby existenz » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:16 am

vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Not really. How many applicants get waitlisted twice at a large number of their choice schools without attending any school at all? Then the schools could waitlist a lot fewer students. I think it would make things better.

I asked one Top-20 school how many students get waitlisted two years in a row at their school, and they said between 50 and 75. That's not a lot. And they wouldn't even reach that number if they WL'ed fewer students.

Not now. But once news of this new policy you've proposed gets out? Thousands of kids would start doing it, knowing that they'd just have to keep waiting and getting waitlisted again and again and eventually they'd get admitted to a top law school. They'd game the system, just like kids try to today, and it'd quickly grow out of control.

+1

Yep. I could see it now. People would start banking their waitlists and turning down schools they were actually accepted to, all because of some ridiculous "3rd time's a charm" policy". Imagine some TLSer writing "I was WLed by Stanford last year, hoping for another WL this year so I'll be golden next year! They'll have to admit me!"

Of course, even if such a policy were implemented, the schools would not bother WLing you a second or third time. They would just reject you and save themselves the hassle. So in no scenario can I imagine this ever helping you out.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:18 am

vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Not qualified, huh?

That would be the assumption. If your numbers are consistently getting you waitlisted but not admitted, but you are getting admitted into lesser-ranked schools, it stands to reason that you lack the necessary qualifications (in GPA or LSAT form) to be admitted to those top-ranked schools you desire.

(I am assuming the holdback is not a C&F issue because if it were serious enough to prevent your acceptance it would probably continue to do so at lower-ranked schools, but you indicated having gotten acceptances at lower T1 schools.)

You are welcome to prove me wrong by sharing your GPA/LSAT and confirming they are deserving of admission to a top law school.


Yes, but people with lower numbers and weaker softs are getting into these schools. Maybe things will be different this time around. And, no, there's no C & F issue. I did have a misdemeanor, but it was vacated with no problems. My record is clean. My numbers URM, 162/3.62 (with clear upward trend over final two years, double major). Good essays (NU law complimented my writing).

It might be that I am applying somewhat later. November apps could make a difference. Last year, I applied in Jan-Feb.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:20 am

PDaddy wrote:Yes, but people with lower numbers and weaker softs are getting into these schools. Maybe things will be different this time around. And, no, there's no C & F issue. I did have a misdemeanor, but it was vacated with no problems. My record is clean. My numbers URM, 162/3.62 (with clear upward trend over final two years, double major). Good essays (NU law complimented my writing).

It might be that I am applying somewhat later. November apps could make a difference. Last year, I applied in Jan-Feb.

What kind of URM are you?

If you are dead-set on T20 and you keep getting WL'd like this, your best bet is likely applying ED very early in the cycle to a school you'd actually like to attend. (By this I don't mean Columbia, I mean choosing between Penn, NU, UVA, and GULC...)
Last edited by vanwinkle on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:22 am

existenz wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Not really. How many applicants get waitlisted twice at a large number of their choice schools without attending any school at all? Then the schools could waitlist a lot fewer students. I think it would make things better.

I asked one Top-20 school how many students get waitlisted two years in a row at their school, and they said between 50 and 75. That's not a lot. And they wouldn't even reach that number if they WL'ed fewer students.

Not now. But once news of this new policy you've proposed gets out? Thousands of kids would start doing it, knowing that they'd just have to keep waiting and getting waitlisted again and again and eventually they'd get admitted to a top law school. They'd game the system, just like kids try to today, and it'd quickly grow out of control.

+1

Yep. I could see it now. People would start banking their waitlists and turning down schools they were actually accepted to, all because of some ridiculous "3rd time's a charm" policy". Imagine some TLSer writing "I was WLed by Stanford last year, hoping for another WL this year so I'll be golden next year! They'll have to admit me!"

Of course, even if such a policy were implemented, the schools would not bother WLing you a second or third time. They would just reject you and save themselves the hassle. So in no scenario can I imagine this ever helping you out.


But that would be the point. The schools couldn't game the system to help their numbers for the rankings and hold students hostage to shore up their classes. Students have a right to know whether schools are really interested in them, don't they? And schools release most students. Few students make orientation day at one school, let alone eight or nine, like I did last year.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:25 am

PDaddy wrote:But that would be the point. The schools couldn't game the system to help their numbers for the rankings and hold students hostage to shore up their classes. Students have a right to know whether schools are really interested in them, don't they?

WL ≠ "gaming the system to help their numbers"

Students have a right to choose whether to wait on a WL and have a chance (but no guarantee) of admission, or to not play that waiting game. And they can exercise that right and refuse to wait, just as you can. Nobody's forcing you to wait on the WL. You are essentially complaining that you are not guaranteed something from waiting on a list that is clearly defined as not guaranteeing anything. If you cannot see the flaw in this, then nobody here can help you.
Last edited by vanwinkle on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:25 am

vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Yes, but people with lower numbers and weaker softs are getting into these schools. Maybe things will be different this time around. And, no, there's no C & F issue. I did have a misdemeanor, but it was vacated with no problems. My record is clean. My numbers URM, 162/3.62 (with clear upward trend over final two years, double major). Good essays (NU law complimented my writing).

It might be that I am applying somewhat later. November apps could make a difference. Last year, I applied in Jan-Feb.

What kind of URM are you?

If you are dead-set on T20 and you keep getting WL'd like this, your best bet is likely applying ED very early in the cycle to a school you'd actually like to attend. (By this I don't mean Columbia, I mean choosing between Penn, NU, UVA, and GULC...)


+1 The smartest thing you've said. I applied ED to UVA this year...got a result. Ethnicity? I had better not say this, Dean Trujillo might be on...lol. Interesting that you mentioned Columbia, btw.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:32 am

vanwinkle wrote:WL ≠ "gaming the system to help their numbers"


WL = helping a school's numbers. What a school gets by WL more students is more chances to keep their numbers up, protect their yields and still keep their selectivity rating high. If they are knmown to WL a high number of students, as is a particular school on the east coast/south, they get more applications, thus more students they can choose from but reject in the end. This is gaming the rankings.

I know I have a choice, but if a school says it is not gaming and that they are really interested in you should the right person/people not come, you want to believe them. They should not be lying. Schools are supposed to WL students they want but cannot fit, not students they know they cannot take at the end but need to keep around "just in case". They are screwing with people's lives.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:33 am

PDaddy wrote:+1 The smartest thing you've said. I applied ED to UVA this year...WL'ed for the third time. I am African-American and Indian.

Why does bolded feel like a rather backhanded compliment? At a minimum it seems to be a quick dismissal of the thoughtful and elaborated commentary I have provided earlier in this thread.

I am typically one of the more staunch supporters of AA and efforts to increase URM enrollment on this board, but the amount of entitlement you're displaying in this thread and elsewhere on the forum is really irritating me. You do not have some fundamental right to attend any of these schools.

Soft AA and URM boosts do not guarantee all minorities access to top law schools. I have explained time and again while defending URM boosts that it is simply a method of allowing them to put preference for the soft factors (PS, resume, LORs) over the hard numbers in these cases. The applicant still must demonstrate in their application that they are qualified to attend that school. If you are getting repeatedly WL'd like this so consistently among top law schools, despite the fact that URMs with similar numbers are occasionally accepted, you must accept that the one constant in all of these WLs is your application. Something must be wrong with it.

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PDaddy
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:38 am

vanwinkle wrote:
PDaddy wrote:+1 The smartest thing you've said. I applied ED to UVA this year...WL'ed for the third time. I am African-American and Indian.

Why does bolded feel like a rather backhanded compliment? At a minimum it seems to be a quick dismissal of the thoughtful and elaborated commentary I have provided earlier in this thread.

I am typically one of the more staunch supporters of AA and efforts to increase URM enrollment on this board, but the amount of entitlement you're displaying in this thread and elsewhere on the forum is really irritating me. You do not have some fundamental right to attend any of these schools.


I sound entitled? No...the people who oppose AA sound entitled when they complain about URM's getting into schools instead of them. I am certainly not entitled to go to any particular school. But if a school doesn't want me, they should shoot straight and not BS, just like they shouldn't lie about their employment stats.

Students who complain about schools inflating their employment stats aren't saying they are "entitled to a job". They are saying that they entitled to HONESTY! Don't WL anyone 3 times. On the third app, either admit them or dont! That is all I am saying.

Entitled my ass. The only "self-entitled" students on any of these boards are white.
Last edited by PDaddy on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:38 am

PDaddy wrote:WL = helping a school's numbers. What a school gets by WL more students is more chances to keep their numbers up, protect their yields and still keep their selectivity rating high. If they are knmown to WL a high number of students, as is a particular school on the east coast/south, they get more applications, thus more students they can choose from but reject in the end. This is gaming the rankings.

I know I have a choice, but if a school says it is not gaming and that they are really interested in you should the right person/people not come, you want to believe them. They should not be lying. Schools are supposed to WL students they want but cannot fit, not students they know they cannot take at the end but need to keep around "just in case". They are screwing with people's lives.

Your view is incredibly and unnecessarily hostile toward universities. By WLing someone, a school gets more chances to keep their numbers up or otherwise diversify their class in the ways they need, but the students who choose to remain on the WL also benefit by getting another chance to be admitted. Also, if a school is known to WL a high number of applicants as you admit, that inherently means that the applicants are already aware of their low chances of getting in off the WL when they choose to remain on it and therefore the school is not lying to them.

This problem would be just as easily solved by more applicants dropping off the WL. Is it the university's fault that, if it offers WLs to a large number of applicants, they all make an educated decision to remain on the WL despite low odds of acceptance? That's their decision, not the university's. Hell, you keep deciding to remain on WLs despite being obviously aware that it does not have a large chance of success.

Your argument is that you are fully aware of the low odds of the school admitting you off the WL, but that somehow the university is still lying to you about something. If you're aware of the risks and the low chances of success, what are they possibly lying about?

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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby stratocophic » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:41 am

PDaddy wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:WL ≠ "gaming the system to help their numbers"


WL = helping a school's numbers. What a school gets by WL more students is more chances to keep their numbers up, protect their yields and still keep their selectivity rating high. If they are knmown to WL a high number of students, as is a particular school on the east coast/south, they get more applications, thus more students they can choose from but reject in the end. This is gaming the rankings.

I know I have a choice, but if a school says it is not gaming and that they are really interested in you should the right person/people not come, you want to believe them. They should not be lying. Schools are supposed to WL students they want but cannot fit, not students they know they cannot take at the end but need to keep around "just in case". They are screwing with people's lives.


It's easier to look at a WL as a rejection, in that case. I plan to move on and look elsewhere if I'm WLed at schools. If a school I really want decides they can fit me in late in the game (depending on other offers, of course), maybe I'll take a look at that slot. If they don't have space or inclination, no feelings are hurt. Looking at it as a sort of soft acceptance rather than a soft rejection probably isn't the best strategy for something that can merit as much emotional investment as the admissions process. That said, don't WL me plz UVA Duke Vandy & Michigan :( You can go ahead and do it Columbia, it's coo cause I understand that my GPA is TTToxic.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:43 am

PDaddy wrote:I sound entitled? No...the people who oppose AA sound entitled when they complain about URM's getting into schools instead of them. I am certainly not entitled to go to any particular school. But if a school doesn't want me, they should shoot straight and not BS, just like they shouldn't lie about their employment stats.

Students who complain about schools inflating their employment stats aren't saying they are "entitled to a job". They are saying that they entitled to HONESTY! Don't WL anyone 3 times. On the third app, either admit them or dont! That is all I am saying.

Entitled my ass. The only "self-entitled" students on any of these boards are white.

Yes, you definitely sound entitled. You sound entitled to having the entire system revamped just to suit your particular desires and opinions. Also, blanket statements like 'the only "self-entitled" students on any of these boards are white' is highly offensive and even racist. You are not doing yourself a favor at all with this hostility.

You are getting honesty from these schools. You are getting a statement from them that they are not prepared to admit you and that they are willing to keep you around for a chance, which you admit you know is small, that you might still get admitted if someone else withdraws. Your problem is that this is not the answer you want. It is a truthful answer, but it is not acceptable to you, so you reject it.

If you don't want to keep getting waitlisted over and over again, the simple solution is to stop applying to the school that is waitisting you. One straightforward definition of insanity is performing the same action over and over again and expecting different results. Consider that for a moment.
Last edited by vanwinkle on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2xWL= "Auto Admit" if you apply third time?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:44 am

it appears the 0Ls are cracking under the strain. Just wait till classes start.




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