Is law school for me?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby Veyron » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:57 pm

kpuc wrote:I'm a senior at Brown University who is majoring in International Relations (studying Russian as my foreign language). With graduation coming up soon, and having to deal with endless questions about what my post-college plans are, I usually tell people that I plan to go to law school in the near future. But I am ambivalent about the prospect.

Here's some background on my situation. I come from a middle class family, and I had no intention of going to an expensive Ivy League university until my wealthy grandfather offered to pay for it. But I ended up getting a big financial aid package from Brown so my family has managed to pay for college by ourselves. Therefore, my would-be college fund from my grandfather has now become my future law school fund. In short, I will have no debts from undergraduate college (my aid package was mostly a grant) and will have no debts coming out of law school should I choose to attend.

My parents mainly see law school as a safety net for me, because they're the kind of parents that can't imagine well-paying and respectable careers outside of medicine, business, or law. And since I am looking at the prospect of obtaining a JD degree without debt accumulation that could compromise my freedom for the future, I sometimes also figure that – in the absence of a clear life plan after college – law school isn't a bad way to spend the next few years of my life, especially if it's in an interesting place to live like New York.

The thing is that my true passion in life is writing, but it is not something out of which a reliable career can be made. I have reason to believe that I have some talent in this field (I've won a thousand dollar short fiction prize at my university, won a screenplay contest and wrote/directed a TV pilot episode for student TV, and had a short play chosen for festival and put on by student theare), but those are by no means any guarantee. Also, I don't really want to depend on my writing for my livelihood, in case I have to resort to hackery just to put food on the table. It is not a requirement nor expectation for me that my career also be my passion because I know there's no real job listing out there for “novelist” or “short story writer”. I just want to find a career to support my passion until one day, I will hopefully become good enough so that those two can finally converge. But I have no ambitions or delusions of coming out of college as a 22-year old and being able to live solely as a writer.

Truth be told, if money and parental expectations were no matter, I'd become a screenwriter or get involved with theatre somehow. I've entertained the idea of taking the LSATs during the summer after graduation, and since those scores are valid for 5 years, spend some time working in the theatre world. But my parents insist that I complete whatever schooling I need to do while I'm young, and explore my interests later. Sometimes, I feel like this is a way to funnel me and hope that my creative ambitions are snuffed out by the grind of law school.

But I am not completely indifferent to law. Politics and international law are of particular interest in me. I could see myself happy if I pursue a certain path in law school. And I have to admit that the security of a law degree and a steady respectable future are at least somewhat enticing; I'd hate to envision myself 10 years from now as some kind of Hollywood hack or pulp fiction manufacturer. Plus, there is a lot of family pressure on me as the eldest child to establish myself in society.

Some people have a single passion and a single gift, and unless they follow and utilize them, they are miserable. I'm not like that. There are futures in law where I could be happy. It wouldn't be my number one passion, but it doesn't have to be. Being a lawyer won't preclude me from trying to sell stories and getting published, though time management will be an issue. People like John Grisham and David E. Kelley have shown that it's possible to try to pursue your creative dreams while being in the law professions. They are exceptional cases certainly, but they do show that it's possible.
I'm just worried that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. I feel like if I am as interested in writing as I say I am, then I need to go all in and throw everything I've got at it. But I am also interesting in certain aspects of law as well. Security vs. passion. It it possible to fulfill both in life?


Ha ha ha ha, the "security" of a law degree. ROFLCOPTER. This guy is the richest flame ever. On the off chance that you are a real person, law school will crush your dreams. Even if you go for free, will you really be able to stomach your middle class family paying 210k for a job that you end up ditching for screen writing? Also, there are no jobs for those outside of top schools and precious few for those people - even at firmly middle class wages. Why don't you go to NYU film? You could satisfy your desire to live in NYC, get graduate education, and actually do what you love. Do you really want to live your whole life doing a "backup" career?

User avatar
reasonabledoubt
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:24 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby reasonabledoubt » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:01 pm

Veyron wrote:
kpuc wrote:I'm a senior at Brown University who is majoring in International Relations (studying Russian as my foreign language). With graduation coming up soon, and having to deal with endless questions about what my post-college plans are, I usually tell people that I plan to go to law school in the near future. But I am ambivalent about the prospect.

Here's some background on my situation. I come from a middle class family, and I had no intention of going to an expensive Ivy League university until my wealthy grandfather offered to pay for it. But I ended up getting a big financial aid package from Brown so my family has managed to pay for college by ourselves. Therefore, my would-be college fund from my grandfather has now become my future law school fund. In short, I will have no debts from undergraduate college (my aid package was mostly a grant) and will have no debts coming out of law school should I choose to attend.

My parents mainly see law school as a safety net for me, because they're the kind of parents that can't imagine well-paying and respectable careers outside of medicine, business, or law. And since I am looking at the prospect of obtaining a JD degree without debt accumulation that could compromise my freedom for the future, I sometimes also figure that – in the absence of a clear life plan after college – law school isn't a bad way to spend the next few years of my life, especially if it's in an interesting place to live like New York.

The thing is that my true passion in life is writing, but it is not something out of which a reliable career can be made. I have reason to believe that I have some talent in this field (I've won a thousand dollar short fiction prize at my university, won a screenplay contest and wrote/directed a TV pilot episode for student TV, and had a short play chosen for festival and put on by student theare), but those are by no means any guarantee. Also, I don't really want to depend on my writing for my livelihood, in case I have to resort to hackery just to put food on the table. It is not a requirement nor expectation for me that my career also be my passion because I know there's no real job listing out there for “novelist” or “short story writer”. I just want to find a career to support my passion until one day, I will hopefully become good enough so that those two can finally converge. But I have no ambitions or delusions of coming out of college as a 22-year old and being able to live solely as a writer.

Truth be told, if money and parental expectations were no matter, I'd become a screenwriter or get involved with theatre somehow. I've entertained the idea of taking the LSATs during the summer after graduation, and since those scores are valid for 5 years, spend some time working in the theatre world. But my parents insist that I complete whatever schooling I need to do while I'm young, and explore my interests later. Sometimes, I feel like this is a way to funnel me and hope that my creative ambitions are snuffed out by the grind of law school.

But I am not completely indifferent to law. Politics and international law are of particular interest in me. I could see myself happy if I pursue a certain path in law school. And I have to admit that the security of a law degree and a steady respectable future are at least somewhat enticing; I'd hate to envision myself 10 years from now as some kind of Hollywood hack or pulp fiction manufacturer. Plus, there is a lot of family pressure on me as the eldest child to establish myself in society.

Some people have a single passion and a single gift, and unless they follow and utilize them, they are miserable. I'm not like that. There are futures in law where I could be happy. It wouldn't be my number one passion, but it doesn't have to be. Being a lawyer won't preclude me from trying to sell stories and getting published, though time management will be an issue. People like John Grisham and David E. Kelley have shown that it's possible to try to pursue your creative dreams while being in the law professions. They are exceptional cases certainly, but they do show that it's possible.
I'm just worried that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. I feel like if I am as interested in writing as I say I am, then I need to go all in and throw everything I've got at it. But I am also interesting in certain aspects of law as well. Security vs. passion. It it possible to fulfill both in life?


Ha ha ha ha, the "security" of a law degree. ROFLCOPTER. This guy is the richest flame ever. On the off chance that you are a real person, law school will crush your dreams. Even if you go for free, will you really be able to stomach your middle class family paying 210k for a job that you end up ditching for screen writing? Also, there are no jobs for those outside of top schools and precious few for those people - even at firmly middle class wages. Why don't you go to NYU film? You could satisfy your desire to live in NYC, get graduate education, and actually do what you love. Do you really want to live your whole life doing a "backup" career?


Because "grandpapa" won't pick up the tab for an artsy-fartsy thing such as NYU film. So OP seems to be making life decisions based on where he can get free money. I'm not judging this. In a sense, it's like investigating options within the grandfather scholarship fund. Good luck with this.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:45 pm

How did this thread get to four pages. I can't imagine that many people read the epic tome that is the OP. I don't know for a fact, since everything about this thread is too long to read, but it seems unlikely.

PunjabiLower
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:07 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby PunjabiLower » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:04 pm

writer for the New York Times or Washington Post>>>law school.

User avatar
GATORTIM
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:51 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby GATORTIM » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:44 pm

Renzo wrote:How did this thread get to four pages. I can't imagine that many people read the epic tome that is the OP. I don't know for a fact, since everything about this thread is too long to read, but it seems unlikely.


b/c each post is like 5,000 words or somebody cut-n-pasting the NY phone book

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby General Tso » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:06 am

PunjabiLower wrote:writer for the New York Times or Washington Post>>>law school.


landing a job like that is probably much harder than landing biglaw right now

User avatar
Vincent Vega
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby Vincent Vega » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:22 am

GATORTIM wrote:
swheat wrote:
dakatz wrote:Perhaps if you enjoy writing, you can become an english teacher? That way you can always have your head in reading/writing, and will have time on the side to do writing of your own.


I agree with this. Teachers still bitch about not earning enough $ but in my experience, they do just fine (50-75k in major cities).

Watching House Hunters International yesterday, the two people buying vacation homes in Italy were a schoolteacher from Salinas and a cop from Seattle....go figure


Is your "experience" watching House Hunters International? 50-75k/yr is not the norm.


I <3 House Hunters, as well as For Rent and My First Place. They make me happy. I am not ashamed.

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby PDaddy » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:33 am

If you have to ask, then NO! Law school isn't for you. But I have to tell you that you are hitting on something when you talk about being a screenwriter. many law students are now looking in that direction. Check out these articles:

http://writ.lp.findlaw.com/hilden/20090817.html

--LinkRemoved--

http://faculty.law.lsu.edu/ccorcos/Stud ... Degree.htm
Last edited by PDaddy on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sirchristaylor
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:33 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby sirchristaylor » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 am

Kiersten1985 wrote:Way too long. Didn't read.

+1 billion. I can only focus for that long on an acceptance letter.

User avatar
PDaddy
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:40 am

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby PDaddy » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:58 am

NOVELISTS, DRAMATISTS, SCREENWRITERS AND POETS

Lew Wallace was both a noted lawyer and diplomat and a successful military officer, reaching the rank of Major General. His most famous work is Ben-Hur (filmed in 1959 and starring Charlton Heston). Owen Wister (The Virginian) graduated from Harvard Law School in 1888. The French writer Tristan Bernard studied law before turning to write for the stage. English novelist John Galsworthy studied law, was admitted to the bar, and actually intended to practice admiralty law before he turned to writing. The leading French playwright of the eighteenth century, Pierre Marivaux, honed his observations of human nature through law study as did Pierre Corneille (1606-1684). Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, the son of a lawyer, also studied law.

The radical poet Ernest Charles Jones also practiced law. Edward Bellamy, better known as the author of the science fiction classic Looking Backward: 1887-2000, was admitted to the bar but abandoned law for journalism. Royall Tyler (1757-1826), was one of the first American-born dramatists as well as a lawyer. Hugh Henry Brackenridge (1748-1816) and Philadelphian Richard Penn Smith also contributed to the early American stage. William Schwenck Gilbert was law trained; it helped flavor many of the works he wrote with composer Sir Arthur Sullivan. John A. Quinby was an admiralty lawyer turned poet and soldier. Charles Perrault (1628-1703) the author of the Mother Goose stories was a lawyer by training. John Luther Long, who practiced law in Philadelphia, wrote the short story on which the David Belasco play and Giacomo Puccini's opera Madama Butterfly were based.

David E. Kelley turned from a Boston law practice to a phenomenally successful career as a producer, director and writer of hit television shows like Ally McBeal, Picket Fences, and The Practice after writing the screenplay for the legal comedy From the Hip. One of Kelley's writers on The Practice is Ed Redlich, a Yale Law School graduate, and classmate of our own Professor Stuart Green. Redlich is also the son of Norman Redlich, former dean of New York University Law School. Peter Blake (Harvard Law '95) contributed a script to the television show The Practice that helped launch him as a screenwriter. John Jay Osborn could lay claim to being the dean of law and pop culture authors: he received a law degree from Harvard, currently teaches at Boalt Law School, and wrote The Paper Chase as well as many other books and scripts. M. Diane Vogt is a Tampa-based lawyer who also writes mysteries that feature judge Wilhelmina (Willa) Carson. Jacqueline Girtner was a family law attorney before turning to writing mysteries. William Deverell, who also created the television show Street Legal, writes mysteries as well; he is a University of Saskatchewan Law School graduate.

University of Virginia law grad Will Shortz is an "enigmatologist": a crossword puzzle creator. He is the editor of the New York Times crossword puzzle and regularly appears on NPR's Weekend Edition. Adam Taylor is a comic poet. Australian High Court Judge Ian Callinan also writes novels. Matthew Pearl (Yale Law School 2000) is the author of The Dante Club. Sig Libowitz (University of Maryland Law '07) wrote and produced (with the school) The Response, based on transcripts from Guantanamo Bay interrogations.

Several Star Trek: The Next Generation scripts profited from the writing of Melinda Snodgrass, a lawyer turned science fiction author. Several law professors have noted that law is a theme in the ST universe (see Paul Joseph and Sharon Carton, The Law of the Federation: Images of Law, Lawyers and the Legal System in "Star Trek: The Next Generation", 24 U. Toledo L. Rev. 43 (Fall 1992); Bradley Stewart Chilton, "Star Trek" and Stare Decisis: Legal Reasoning and Information Technology, 8 J. Crim. Justice and Pop. Culture 25(2001), and Michael Scharf and Lawrence Roberts, The Interstellar Relations of the Federation: International Law and Star Trek: The Next Generation, 25 U. Toledo L. Rev. 577 (1994)). SF writer Nat Schachner (Space Lawyer) practiced law before turning to writing. He wrote his first story with fellow attorney Arthur Leo Zagat.

The playwright Elmer Rice quit the practice of law early to write and direct several well known dramas. The influence on law on his writing is notable. Abraham Polonsky is another lawyer who became a writer and political activist.

Attorneys Steve Martini, Scott Turow, John Grisham, Richard North Patterson, Maynard Thomson, Lia Matera, Louis Begley, Mark Lindquist, John Oliver Killens, Christian Nestell Bozee, Charles W. Chestnutt all put their legal training to good use in crime thrillers and novels, of very different styles and periods. Other lawyer-writers include Jim Fraiser (author of Shadow Seed and M is For Mississippi; he's also been an actor in New Orleans). Jay Brandon, author of Fade the Heat, is a practicing lawyer. Richard Dooling, a Saint Louis University law school grad, wrote the novels White Man's Burden, which became a movie starring John Travolta, and Brainstorm.

Jeffrey Deaver was a journalist before earning a law degree. He wrote The Complete Law School Companion before turning to mystery and suspense novels. He's also been a poet and a folksinger. Canadian lawyer Peter Hogg spent years tracking down Nazi war criminals before writing Crimes of War, a fictionalized account based on some of his adventures. Practicing attorney and child rights advocate Andrew Vachss is another lawyer/novelist. The noted poet Pauli Murray (1910-1985) also practiced law for many years. David J. Walker was a priest and a police investigator before turning to law, and then to mystery writing. Other lawyer-novelists include Alan Richard Gordon, Sheldon Siegel, Peter Lance and Loyola (LA) Law prof Yxta Maya Murray.

Judges who have penned fiction include "Robert Traver" (actually Michigan Supreme Court Justice John Voelker) author of Anatomy of a Murder, one of the best legal novels ever written (it inspired a terrific film starring James Stewart and the young Ben Gazzara) and Manhattan (NY) Supreme Court Justice Edwin Torres (Carlito's Way). Alexander McCall Smith, born in what is now Zimbabwe, is the author of the very popular series of books about a Botswanan detective, including The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency. He teaches medical law at the University of Edinburgh and is a noted medico-legal ethicist. Charles L. Black, of the University of Texas Law School, wrote poetry as well as legal tomes. Hailey North began her legal career as a "game show lawyer" for NBC. She published her first romance novel in 1993 but hasn't given up a day job: she is head of Tulane's paralegal studies program.

A surprising number of lawyers were or are also poets. Archibald MacLeish, John William Corrington, and Wallace Stevens (New York Law School, JD 1903) are among the better known US lawyer/poets. For a film based on Corrington's work, see Decoration Day (starring James Garner) Like several other scholars, MacLeish was also Librarian of Congress (1939-1944). William Cullen Bryant (1794-1878) practiced law for ten years before turning full time to writing. Among his best known poems is Thanatopsis (1821).

Mary Leader, a professor at the University of Memphis, was assistant attorney general for the state of Oklahoma. Her poetry has won numerous awards. University of Georgia Law School professor Alex Scherr started out as a poet, then went to law school, and now combines his love of words and his love of the law as director of the civil clinic program at U Georgia. Oliver Mbamara, an administrative law judge for the state of New York, has also pursued his interest in writing, performing and producing the lively arts. Lawrence Joseph is both a law professor and a published poet. Edgar Lee Masters ("Spoon River Anthology") was a Chicago attorney.

James Weldon Johnson had many talents, including songwriting (he composed "Lift Every Voice and Sing") but he was also the first African-American admitted to the Florida Bar. The early nineteenth century lawyers William Ross Wallace and George Watterston were also poets and writers.

Federico Garcia Lorca studied law before becoming famous as a writer of dramas and poetry. He was a noted anti-Fascist who was murdered by Francoist forces during the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). (Other Spanish Civil War sites are available at --LinkRemoved-- and --LinkRemoved--.) The French language writer Marguerite Duras (1914-1996), born in what is now Vietnam, studied law at the Sorbonne. Carlos Fuentes, the internationally renowned novelist, took a law degree at the National University of Mexico and also served his country as a diplomat.

E. T. A. Hoffmann (1776-1822) wrote many plays satirizing and criticizing the German states of his day. The English novelist Henry Fielding and the biographer James Boswell both had successful legal careers although they are better remembered today for their contributions to world literature. If you want to read some fictionalized work about Fielding's brother, also a lawyer and judge and Boswell's famous biographee Samuel Johnson, try the works of Bruce Alexander (Fielding) and Lillian de la Torre (Johnson). Wilkie Collins, author of the classic chillers The Moonstone and The Woman in White, was also an attorney. Victorian lawyer Henry Newbolt was also a writer.

Harvard Law School-educated Richard Henry Dana (1787-1879), an expert in maritime law, wrote the classic Two Years Before the Mast. Other lawyers better remembered for their writing include John Buchan, Sir Walter Scott, and Albion W. Tourgee. Rafael Sabatini, who wrote the popular Flashman novels, was also a lawyer. The seventeenth century legal scholar Sir John Davies also achieved fame as a poet. Britisher John Gibson Lockhart, son in law of Sir Walter Scott, was also a lawyer-novelist, as was Vermonter Daniel P. Thompson. Trinidad and Tobago native Maxwell Philip was both a writer and Attorney General of his country.

Louis Auchincloss (University of Virginia Law School JD 1941) has continued to practice law while writing many novels, including The Rector of Justin. Demonstrating that law and life are seamless webs, Auchincloss is also related by marriage to the late Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis (as is the novelist Gore Vidal who is also related to former Vice President Al Gore). New York attorney Marissa Piesman (Assistant New York State Attorney General) writes the popular Nina Fischman series and is also co-author of The Yuppie Handbook (1984).

Studs Turkel (Working) is another successful writer/lawyer. After working for a number of years as a legal aid attorney, Martin Espada turned to teaching college English. Arizona attorney Richard Parrish is also a published novelist (Defending the Truth (1998); Nothing But the Truth (1996)). Of course, one of the most famous lawyer-novelists was Erle Stanley Gardner, creator of Perry Mason. Gardner wrote other mystery and courtroom novels as well, including several "D.A" novels and the Bertha Cool/Donald Lam series (under the name A. A. Fair. One of Fair's novels is Owls Don't Blink, some of which is set in New Orleans.)

Other lawyer novelists include Jeremiah Healy (his sleuth is John Francis Cuddy) and Lisa Scottoline. Attorney Louis Begley has won awards for his writing. Eleazar Lipsky was a novelist and director as well as a lawyer. London born Louis Nizer wrote extensively about his career in such books as The Implosion Conspiracy and The Jury Returns. Among his clients were Julius and Ethel Rosenberg and John Henry Faulk.

Doreen Cronin is a St. Johns Law School grad and attorney who writes delightful children's books like Click, Clack, Moo: Cows That Type about a herd of cows who demand electric blankets from the local farmer before they will produce any more milk. Her newest books are the popular Diary of a Worm and Duck for President. George Wallace is a former actor turned attorney and poet.

University of Alberta graduates Greg Ball and Steve Blackman created the television series The Associates, about young attorneys.

Want to find more novels with lawyers as protagonists (or authors) ? Try Mystery-B Discusses: Mysteries in Which a Lawyer is a Main Character and check out the Lawyer Briefs website and Findlaw's Infirmation.com on lawyers. And check out these short bibliographies on the writings of lawyer-novelists.

John Grisham
Scott Turow

Want to read about other lawyer-poets? See Lawyers and Poetry, a page maintained by James Elkins of the University of West Virginia Law School. Or see the following articles:

Elizabeth Cohen, Man of the law, and of letters as well, New York Times, April 1, 1994, at B8. About law professor and poet Lawrence Joseph.

Jerry Crimmins, A Specialist in all, even iambic pentameter, Chicago Daily Law Bulletin, Sept. 19, 2005, at 3. About attorney poet Paul Homer.

“Spoon River” at the firehouse, The Ithaca Journal, June 8, 2000 at 4C. About Edgar Lee Masters.

Dana E. Sullivan, From briefs to poetry, a classic change of pace, New Jersey Lawyer, March 28, 2005, at 1. About attorney lawyers through history, including Francis Scott Key, James Russell Lowell, Sidney Lanier, Edgar Lee Masters, Wallace Stevens, Archibald MacLeish, Steven M. Richman, Scott Alan George, and C. Megan Oltman

User avatar
gochrisgo
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby gochrisgo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:31 pm

_
Last edited by gochrisgo on Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SoCalKevin
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:25 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby SoCalKevin » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:40 pm

I think you need to do what you really want to do. If you don't REALLY want to be a lawyer, you're either going to be miserable in law school, or drop out and waste a LOT of money, or both.

Trust me from experience- do what you love and the success will follow.

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby General Tso » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:26 pm

gochrisgo wrote:
(I never use myagkii znak when I write though...)


oh, so that's why nobody understood what the hell you wrote

User avatar
gochrisgo
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm

Re: Is law school for me?

Postby gochrisgo » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:30 pm

_




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baby Gaga, Bing [Bot], lawlita, lymenheimer, Yahoo [Bot] and 6 guests