International Law/Practicing in Europe

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
ruleser
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:41 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby ruleser » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:13 pm

Renzo wrote:Yup. I know two biglaw associates who work/worked in European offices. They have the same credentials as every other biglaw associate. "I want to make sure my biglaw job will allow me to work at a foreign office, what should I do?" is not the same question as, "I want to go to a school that will let me jet off to Prague and open up shop, what should I do?"

Is there actually something different you would do to make this happen/make the odds more likely?

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby General Tso » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:15 pm

ruleser wrote:
Renzo wrote:Yup. I know two biglaw associates who work/worked in European offices. They have the same credentials as every other biglaw associate. "I want to make sure my biglaw job will allow me to work at a foreign office, what should I do?" is not the same question as, "I want to go to a school that will let me jet off to Prague and open up shop, what should I do?"

Is there actually something different you would do to make this happen/make the odds more likely?


Some students at my school have worked summers at an international biglaw office. One example that comes to mind is a SA position at DLA Piper in Paris.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:18 pm

ruleser wrote:
Renzo wrote:Yup. I know two biglaw associates who work/worked in European offices. They have the same credentials as every other biglaw associate. "I want to make sure my biglaw job will allow me to work at a foreign office, what should I do?" is not the same question as, "I want to go to a school that will let me jet off to Prague and open up shop, what should I do?"

Is there actually something different you would do to make this happen/make the odds more likely?

Go to a firm with a real foreign office, that does a lot of cross-border work. Some firms have local partner offices that are really just offices in name only, to give the appearance of being global. It's something to research ahead of OCI and ask about in interviews. I'd look at some of the big recent deals on the firms websites, if there are a lot of deals with Banco Santander, Alcoa, Sinopec, etc., yo know they are actually doing international work.

etlien
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:08 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby etlien » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:20 pm

Renzo wrote:
etlien wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:I can already feel the anti-international law legion thundering towards this thread.

I'm not anti-international law. I'm anti self-important assclown. Every single county in Europe is full of bright, motivated, and educated law students and potential law students who know the culture and, oh-by-the-way, speak the effing language. Why they fuck does any employer in any foreign country want you, OP? Ooooooooh, I see, because you are truly a special and unique individual! Of course!


Because American law firms have offices in Europe staffed with *gasp* American educated lawyers.

Yup. I know two biglaw associates who work/worked in European offices. They have the same credentials as every other biglaw associate. "I want to make sure my biglaw job will allow me to work at a foreign office, what should I do?" is not the same question as, "I want to go to a school that will let me jet off to Prague and open up shop, what should I do?"


Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.

User avatar
General Tso
Posts: 2289
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby General Tso » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:22 pm

etlien wrote:
Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.


Yeah but it's still a silly pipe dream. I think the OP was trolling personally.

etlien
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:08 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby etlien » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:23 pm

Alexandria wrote:
etlien wrote:
Renzo wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:I can already feel the anti-international law legion thundering towards this thread.

I'm not anti-international law. I'm anti self-important assclown. Every single county in Europe is full of bright, motivated, and educated law students and potential law students who know the culture and, oh-by-the-way, speak the effing language. Why they fuck does any employer in any foreign country want you, OP? Ooooooooh, I see, because you are truly a special and unique individual! Of course!


Because American law firms have offices in Europe staffed with *gasp* American educated lawyers.


How true is this? I have limited experience... I worked in a German office of a large American firm my 1L summer. The attorneys in their German offices were German-educated Germans (though some secondarily had international degrees... sometimes American LLMs, but more often second degrees from other European countries), with the exception of one American guy who was long-term temporarily (it didn't seem like he was actually claimed as one of their office's attorneys instead of "belonging" to his American office, but I think he had been there at least a year) working in one of the German offices.

But it was one firm and one country that I have first-hand knowledge of. I know in the UK, it's a mix of Americans and Brits.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I am a lowly 0L so I'm trying to figure this out too. My friend's mom works in the local (Asian) office of an American firm and says they only hire people with American JDs. Given this is how one firm works and in Asia at that, I am interested in hearing more about people's information/advice/experiences with European offices.
Last edited by etlien on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:24 pm

etlien wrote:Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.

I'm not convinced, but if this is what the OP wants the answer is: 1) go to T14 2) get good grades 3) get biglaw job with firm that has foreign affiliates 4) do transactional work 5) after a year or two of experience, ask to be assigned to foreign office

User avatar
mallard
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby mallard » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:27 pm

Renzo wrote:
etlien wrote:Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.

I'm not convinced, but if this is what the OP wants the answer is: 1) go to T14 2) get good grades 3) get biglaw job with firm that has foreign affiliates 4) do transactional work 5) after a year or two of experience, ask to be assigned to foreign office


I think what the OP really wants is to find a magical lower-ranked school that can get him or her a ballin' international gig. People often attend American in particular because they think it has this sort of magical power.

Alexandria
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Alexandria » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:28 pm

Renzo wrote:
etlien wrote:Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.

I'm not convinced, but if this is what the OP wants the answer is: 1) go to T14 2) get good grades 3) get biglaw job with firm that has foreign affiliates 4) do transactional work 5) after a year or two of experience, ask to be assigned to foreign office


I think this is right. Unless you want London, in which case there is possibly a slightly easier route. Then you could: 1) go to T14 2) get good grades 3) interview with the handful of London firms who come to OCI.

I do have one friend who managed this.

User avatar
nematoad
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:06 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby nematoad » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:47 pm

mallard wrote:
Renzo wrote:
etlien wrote:Maybe I'm reading it differently, but nowhere in the OP's post did he claim to want to 'open up shop' in Prague or anything equally self-important assclownish. Honestly, I think he/she wants to keep working in Europe an option and wants to ask what can be done to maximise his/her chances. This is after all a discussion forum, i.e. somewhere to go and ask questions about what we're unsure of.

I'm not convinced, but if this is what the OP wants the answer is: 1) go to T14 2) get good grades 3) get biglaw job with firm that has foreign affiliates 4) do transactional work 5) after a year or two of experience, ask to be assigned to foreign office


I think what the OP really wants is to find a magical lower-ranked school that can get him or her a ballin' international gig. People often attend American in particular because they think it has this sort of magical power.


hahaha +1
shockingly though the better programs are within the t14

User avatar
ruleser
Posts: 870
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:41 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby ruleser » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:57 pm

How about this option:

Focus on say PI/Hum Right/Int'l and try to work with an int'l non-prof/NGO. Legit or pipe dream?

Alexandria
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Alexandria » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:00 pm

ruleser wrote:How about this option:

Focus on say PI/Hum Right/Int'l and try to work with an int'l non-prof/NGO. Legit or pipe dream?


I think it's legit, but you still have to keep in mind that you need to perform very well in law school and preferably go to a top law school. Highly desirable public interest jobs are just as competitive as highly desirable private sector jobs.

sophie316
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby sophie316 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:12 pm

ruleser wrote:How about this option:

Focus on say PI/Hum Right/Int'l and try to work with an int'l non-prof/NGO. Legit or pipe dream?


Legit in theory but again you could have visa issues if not a citizen of the country you want to go to. I'm not sure how it works in Europe but in the US, while non profits are H1B cap exempt they're also poor and don't want to pay to sponsor people when there are any number of perfectly qualified domestic lawyers. I know that for human rights watch in the UK for example you have to be legally able to work there before they'll consider you. The UN route may be easier on the visa front but obviously very hard to get.

ScaredWorkedBored
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:37 pm

ruleser wrote:
Renzo wrote:Yup. I know two biglaw associates who work/worked in European offices. They have the same credentials as every other biglaw associate. "I want to make sure my biglaw job will allow me to work at a foreign office, what should I do?" is not the same question as, "I want to go to a school that will let me jet off to Prague and open up shop, what should I do?"

Is there actually something different you would do to make this happen/make the odds more likely?


Be native fluent in the language in question and seek transactional work at a firm that has large operations in the country in question.

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Renzo » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:29 pm

ruleser wrote:How about this option:

Focus on say PI/Hum Right/Int'l and try to work with an int'l non-prof/NGO. Legit or pipe dream?

How many organizations like that are there are that need lawyers? I can think of a few, but not many. Now, how many lawyers do they need? Again, not many. Now, how many people would like to do that kind of work? Almost everyone.

Odds are not good. Much worse than a biglaw job, for sure.

kurguzy
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:10 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby kurguzy » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:42 pm

As was stated before, unless you already speak a foreign language fluently then the options are limited. And even if you do get a dual-degree in law and French (for example) do not think that you are going to leave the school fluent in French. You may be able to answer the questions your teacher asks, but when it comes to the colloquial language the clients or co-workers will speak, you are going to run into a wall. Don't get me wrong. It is not impossible, but it is not going to happen quickly. "Fluency" is not enough to argue persuasively. Unless you work for an English speaking firm, for which you would need a JD.

User avatar
Zapatero
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:14 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Zapatero » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:52 pm

kurguzy wrote:As was stated before, unless you already speak a foreign language fluently then the options are limited. And even if you do get a dual-degree in law and French (for example) do not think that you are going to leave the school fluent in French. You may be able to answer the questions your teacher asks, but when it comes to the colloquial language the clients or co-workers will speak, you are going to run into a wall. Don't get me wrong. It is not impossible, but it is not going to happen quickly. "Fluency" is not enough to argue persuasively. Unless you work for an English speaking firm, for which you would need a JD.


This. Real fluency--the kind of fluency you'd need for people to actually take you seriously--can't be learned in a semester. Assuming OP has no foreign language experience at all, we're talking a solid two full years of immersion classes at the absolute least.

Alexandria
Posts: 593
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:41 am

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby Alexandria » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:59 pm

kurguzy wrote: "Fluency" is not enough to argue persuasively. Unless you work for an English speaking firm, for which you would need a JD.


I agree with that. My German is fluent (from spending a year as a high school exchange student and majoring in it in college), and a large part of the reason I spent my 1L summer in Germany was to bring it up to a professional standard. I felt like if it was on my resume as fluent, I should be able to actually WORK in that language in the legal profession. While my summer did certainly help some... I did plenty of legal research in German and interacted with the attorneys and staff and even the occasional client in German, so I learned a decent amount of legal vocabulary and learned some about their legal system... there is no way I could argue in court in German or even write a good brief.

Now, for an American firm, especially for a temporary assignment abroad, that might be enough. The attorneys at my office did tons of work in English. They interacted with German attorneys (within the firm and outside it) and clients in German, but everyone else (whether American, Danish, Chinese, etc.) in English, and there was a lot of this international communication. A significant portion of their work product was in English, even if research was done in German (we all know reading is much easier than writing). But I do agree that, to really be able to work effectively in an office like that and not so ridiculously limited in the types of work assignments you can do that no firm would want you, you have to be pretty damned proficient in the native language.

ScaredWorkedBored
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: International Law/Practicing in Europe

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:03 pm

By the way, this is the the Foreign Services language scale, which you'll see variations of with similar ranks in the private sector.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale

In order to be an attorney taking the lead on a complex subject (i.e. useful), you need to be S-4 or better. This isn't something that you're picking up in high school or a couple semesters of college classes.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests