What not to wear

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champ33
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Re: What not to wear

Postby champ33 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:39 pm

drsomebody wrote:
champ33 wrote: I doubt whether most people who dismiss others for not following convention are thinking along the lines you are. It's more likely they're slipping comfortably into the manipulation prone system.


Oh, I'm sure that they're not explicitly thinking of things that way. Normative systems work "best" when they are least noticed. The stodgy old boss who refuses to hire a "dirty hippie" for not cutting his hair isn't thinking about limiting and channeling the reproduction of power through physical control of the bodies of others, but that's exactly what he's doing. The homology between the law and appropriate dress almost certainly isn't consciously connected in the minds of adcom members and potential employers, but I suspect it's still subconsciously present. Foucault's entire body of work is based around these sorts of premises (a body of work that IMHO has huge and largely misunderstood implications for legal studies).

So if you 'ironically' dress 'appropriately' are you gaming the system, are you reinforcing it, or is it a combination of the two?

kwhitegocubs wrote: But why should there be social distinctions?

When you have a solid answer for that question please do tell me! It's been vexing social theorists for thousands of years.


I like the way that you think, however I never implied that those following the system were consciously doing so. Maybe I should have said 'unconsciously slipping'. I was trying to remark, though, that those striving for some kind of justice in the role of lawyer, while following social norms of attire and whatever else, should make themselves painfully and consistently aware that justice relies on realities that transcend and provide the foundation for those norms. A little long-winded sorry...

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:51 pm

"I never implied that those following the system were consciously doing so."

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to come of as disagreeing with you. I was agreeing with your point and expanding upon it. Probably should have done a better job editing.

But I don't agree at all with the claim that "justice relies on realities that transcend and provide the foundation for those norms." I am of the opinion, instead, that social norms are constituative of justice and those so-called transcendent realities. But this all veers a bit away from the topic of what to wear.

To the OP: Might I suggest a snuggie? It's comfortable, trendy, and makes a distinctive fashion statement.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Fancy Pants » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:54 pm

kwhitegocubs wrote:However, I was responding to the numerous posts in which those who dress a certain way advise against or were offended by the "unprofessional" dress of others.


I had a lengthy response to the first half of your post, then I read this line. I agree with your points being directed toward people who are "offended" by people who dress sloppily.

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Trifles
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Trifles » Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:17 pm

I don't understand this "disrespectful to the classroom" stuff. I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to.

colleen
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Re: What not to wear

Postby colleen » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:06 am

drsomebody wrote:"To the OP: Might I suggest a snuggie? It's comfortable, trendy, and makes a distinctive fashion statement.


Thanks, I'll go with a snuggie. Or perhaps the new snuggie suit?

Pearalegal
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:12 am

Trifles wrote:I don't understand this "disrespectful to the classroom" stuff. I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to.


+1

A job is paying you, you're paying your school. Put on some tartan slippers for all I care.

Visiting to make a good impression is a different thing, though. I still say casual business casual. A lot of times you'll end up sitting down with someone and discussing the school and perhaps application.

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:34 am

Trifles wrote:I don't understand this "disrespectful to the classroom" stuff. I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to.


When you attend school you are not buying a commodity. Instead, you are paying to be trained as an apprentice. Part of that compact involves conforming to the professional standards of the field you are being trained in. If you fail to meet those standards you do not deserve to be accredited to act as a professional in that field.

Thanks, I'll go with a snuggie. Or perhaps the new snuggie suit?

The sunggie suit is overly-formal for such purposes. I would suggest the classic sunggie. You do not want to appear to be "putting on airs." Some would find that offensive.

Pearalegal
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:36 am

drsomebody wrote:
Trifles wrote:I don't understand this "disrespectful to the classroom" stuff. I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to.


When you attend school you are not buying a commodity. Instead, you are paying to be trained as an apprentice. Part of that compact involves conforming to the professional standards of the field you are being trained in. If you fail to meet those standards you do not deserve to be accredited to act as a professional in that field.


lulz.

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rockchalk86
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Re: What not to wear

Postby rockchalk86 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:43 am

Leopard print snuggie... it looks good and it shows you have personality.

Pearalegal
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Pearalegal » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:44 am

I have the pink breast cancer one. 5 dolla, went to a good cause.

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fl0w
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Re: What not to wear

Postby fl0w » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:52 am

bah. sometimes i wish i lived in the 50s where people understood that you dress the part. but then i remember i'm black and my life wouldn't actually be any good.

CEOs wear suits, superman wears tights and a cape, I am just of the opinion that students can at least put some clothes on and not look like the literally rolled out of bed.

call me old school.

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vanwinkle
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Re: What not to wear

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:54 am

drsomebody wrote:All social distinction is deeply intertwined with displays of power. Dressing appropriately signals that one is able to understand that system and manipulate it for a desired outcome. That's exactly what a lawyer does with the law. If I were an admissions dean or an on-campus recruiter I would worry that somebody who drastically missed the social cues proscribing appropriate dress would also fail to understand the normative function of the law.

I should also add that ignoring the mechanisms of power is not a productive way to channel the impacts of those mechanisms or make them go away. To achieve meaningful results, a young lawyer should fight for social justice in a well-fitting charcoal gray two piece suit.


Dude, this is true, but none of us are lawyers, we're law students, or potential law students. I'll still advocate wearing at least some khakis and a button-up shirt, just for the sake of looking decent, but if someone wants to do a campus tour in jeans and a T-shirt, it's not going to get their acceptance revoked or anything.

You fight for social justice in a suit in a courtroom. Level of dress depends on the setting and circumstances. If you're going golfing with a judge, that may be something that ultimately helps you fight social justice (by setting you up to become his clerk, or swaying him on an issue, or whatever) but it doesn't mean you show up in a suit and tie to do it.

School tours are the same way. It's a tour, not a Supreme Court nomination. This is especially true after my first semester of 1L; everyone quickly settled into jeans and T-shirts for classes, even those who started the semester dressing well. It's just class. You're a student, or someone who's trying to become a student. There aren't strong "social cues" indicating that a suit and tie is "appropriate dress" for a campus tour.

I wear a suit to court, but that doesn't mean I have to wear one to class, and it sure didn't mean I had to wear one on a brief tour of campus when I was looking around last year.

drsomebody wrote:
Trifles wrote:I don't understand this "disrespectful to the classroom" stuff. I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to.


When you attend school you are not buying a commodity. Instead, you are paying to be trained as an apprentice. Part of that compact involves conforming to the professional standards of the field you are being trained in. If you fail to meet those standards you do not deserve to be accredited to act as a professional in that field.


You have to be a rather naive 0L if you're making statements like this.

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:15 am

vanwinkle wrote:"Dude, this is true, but none of us are lawyers, we're law students, or potential law students."


Context matters. This wasn't in response to the OP, but in response to general claims about not wanting to conform to normative stereotypes about proper dress. It also involved rhetorical exaggeration.

vanwinkle wrote:"You have to be a rather naive 0L if you're making statements like this."


I've taught undergraduate classes at one of [HYP] and have a tenure-track job offer on the table. I'm pretty sure that I'll be going into law instead; I've lost faith in my academic discipline. That being said, I'll certainly stand by the argument that entering your classes with a sense of entitlement is a fantastic way to get your professors to not take you seriously as a student. They know when you're acting unprofessionally and they are likely to grade you accordingly.

Pearalegal wrote:I have the pink breast cancer one. 5 dolla, went to a good cause.

I would advise against wearing the pink sunggie. It might be seen as "too political." The classic snuggie is really the best bet. Law is a conservative profession by nature.

champ33
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Re: What not to wear

Postby champ33 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:32 am

Wear the snuggie made of sham-wow material so you can piss yourself on the tour and not lose out on any valuable information.

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Thirteen
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Thirteen » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:39 am

fl0w wrote:bah. sometimes i wish i lived in the 50s where people understood that you dress the part. but then i remember i'm black and my life wouldn't actually be any good.

I said the EXACT thing while watching Goodfellas with friends yesterday. One of them said he would like to live in an era where men dressed respectably, and I replied that I would hate living in the 60's because blacks were treated like shit.

OP, you'll look fine in a sweater and jeans or khakis. Make sure you're wearing clean shoes (people will notice).

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vanwinkle
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Re: What not to wear

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:04 am

drsomebody wrote:I've taught undergraduate classes at one of [HYP] and have a tenure-track job offer on the table. I'm pretty sure that I'll be going into law instead; I've lost faith in my academic discipline. That being said, I'll certainly stand by the argument that entering your classes with a sense of entitlement is a fantastic way to get your professors to not take you seriously as a student. They know when you're acting unprofessionally and they are likely to grade you accordingly.


I agree that acting unprofessionally in class will be frowned upon, but strongly disagree with any notion that showing up for class in casual dress reflects a "sense of entitlement" or (as you said earlier that was quoted) that it is "disrespectful to the classroom". Almost everyone at my T14 wears jeans; hell, one day our entire section went to class in softball uniforms because we had a game right afterward. The prof made a joke about it, and then went on teaching the class like nothing happened.

My grades also don't reflect my professors being unhappy with my casual dress in class. Not at all.

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:13 am

Casual dress is one thing. Expressing the sentiment that "I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to" is entirely different. Sure, wear a t-shirt and jeans. That's totally acceptable. But don't expect your professor to take you seriously if you show up in a snuggie and pajama bottoms with an overinflated sense of entitlement.* And yes, if you show up to class everyday in a suit and tie you'll look like, and be treated like, a douchebag tool. It's all about dressing appropriately for the given context.

*Although, in the interests of full disclosure, I personally would love it if one of my students showed up to class in a sunggie - especially a leopard print snuggie. Very few of the other professors or lecturers in my department would though.

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vanwinkle
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Re: What not to wear

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:15 am

drsomebody wrote:Casual dress is one thing. Expressing the sentiment that "I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to" is entirely different. Sure, wear a t-shirt and jeans. That's totally acceptable. But don't expect your professor to take you seriously if you show up in a snuggie and pajama bottoms with an overinflated sense of entitlement.* And yes, if you show up to class everyday in a suit and tie you'll look like, and be treated like, a douchebag tool. It's all about dressing appropriately for the given context.

*Although, in the interests of full disclosure, I personally would love it if one of my students showed up to class in a sunggie - especially a leopard print snuggie. Very few of the other professors or lecturers in my department would though.


Okay, I suppose we're pretty much on the same page then.

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:19 am

vanwinkle wrote:Okay, I suppose we're pretty much on the same page then.


Yeah, I think so. My verbose and pretentious language often leads to miscommunication. Fucking useless humanities Ph.D.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: What not to wear

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:22 am

drsomebody wrote:Casual dress is one thing. Expressing the sentiment that "I am paying to be there, I will wear what I want to" is entirely different. Sure, wear a t-shirt and jeans. That's totally acceptable. But don't expect your professor to take you seriously if you show up in a snuggie and pajama bottoms with an overinflated sense of entitlement.* And yes, if you show up to class everyday in a suit and tie you'll look like, and be treated like, a douchebag tool. It's all about dressing appropriately for the given context.

*Although, in the interests of full disclosure, I personally would love it if one of my students showed up to class in a sunggie - especially a leopard print snuggie. Very few of the other professors or lecturers in my department would though.


Really? You mean they AREN'T entitled to do that? Why? If they turn in good papers and express good ideas in class, then how could you justify treating them in a way not commensurate with their performance? I guess I'd expect academia to be especially tolerant of meritocracy and substance over style and social conformity.

I also must admit that my experience in school has been very positive on this front- wearing gym shorts and heavily stained work clothes, or pajamas, etc... and still getting A's.

Also, I approve of your verbosity and pretension, just not the ideas they are currently attempting to elucidate. :D

drsomebody
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Re: What not to wear

Postby drsomebody » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:36 am

"in a way not commensurate with their performance?"

With the worry that this is becoming a circular argument: A student's 'performance' includes recognizing and acting on the social cues involved in composing and running a classroom. That's why most professors have a "classroom participation" component to the grading system. Done well it's an important component of professionalization and preparation for whatever job the student will get after graduation.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with this system, and I don't personally judge students for their dress, but the rational for those professors who do is coherent.

And what is "meritocracy" except adequately conforming to narrowly specified social norms? You seem to be operating in a philosophical world where the social is widow dressing to trans-historical "truth values" of some sort. I'm not sure if that's a realistic position to take. I don't think you can parse apart "style" and "substance" that easily.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: What not to wear

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:05 am

drsomebody wrote:"in a way not commensurate with their performance?"

With the worry that this is becoming a circular argument: A student's 'performance' includes recognizing and acting on the social cues involved in composing and running a classroom. That's why most professors have a "classroom participation" component to the grading system. Done well it's an important component of professionalization and preparation for whatever job the student will get after graduation.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with this system, and I don't personally judge students for their dress, but the rational for those professors who do is coherent.

And what is "meritocracy" except adequately conforming to narrowly specified social norms? You seem to be operating in a philosophical world where the social is widow dressing to trans-historical "truth values" of some sort. I'm not sure if that's a realistic position to take. I don't think you can parse apart "style" and "substance" that easily.


I always took classroom participation as the merit of the ideas the student expressed in classroom debates and the like. I guess I didn't think that wearing "appropriate" clothes would be a substitute for some level of actual intellectual participation when compared to an active but "ill-dressed" peer.

I very much operate in a philosophical world. It's the only thing that keeps me within a broad arm's length of sanity. I actually don't approve of a meritocracy myself, because I don't believe in free will from a determinist perspective, but do believe that a meritocracy based solely on idea and ideal is superior to needlessly clouding those mythical values in a thick layer of arbitrary social and (usually) ethnocentric values. Certainly some level of socialization is inescapable, but propagating and endorsing these arbitrary traits as a value-added component to any kind of meritocracy merely exacerbates the rigidity and intolerance of society, while diminishing its capacity to look rationally upon creative endeavors.

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fl0w
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Re: What not to wear

Postby fl0w » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:50 am

kwhitegocubs wrote:I always took classroom participation as the merit of the ideas the student expressed in classroom debates and the like. I guess I didn't think that wearing "appropriate" clothes would be a substitute for some level of actual intellectual participation when compared to an active but "ill-dressed" peer.

I very much operate in a philosophical world. It's the only thing that keeps me within a broad arm's length of sanity. I actually don't approve of a meritocracy myself, because I don't believe in free will from a determinist perspective, but do believe that a meritocracy based solely on idea and ideal is superior to needlessly clouding those mythical values in a thick layer of arbitrary social and (usually) ethnocentric values. Certainly some level of socialization is inescapable, but propagating and endorsing these arbitrary traits as a value-added component to any kind of meritocracy merely exacerbates the rigidity and intolerance of society, while diminishing its capacity to look rationally upon creative endeavors.


so i ran this through google translator and it gave me "i want to wear a sponge-bob t-shirt and daisy duke jean shorts to all of my job interviews because no matter what i wear, people should ignore it and think i'm great". am i doing it right?

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Fancy Pants
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Re: What not to wear

Postby Fancy Pants » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:04 am

drsomebody wrote:When you attend school you are not buying a commodity. Instead, you are paying to be trained as an apprentice. Part of that compact involves conforming to the professional standards of the field you are being trained in. If you fail to meet those standards you do not deserve to be accredited to act as a professional in that field.


I am not training to be an apprentice. If I was training to be an apprentice, I would be an "apprentice", not a "student." They are two different things.

There is no "compact" that I'm agreeing to when I pay tuition to attend a school. There are no "standards" that are implicit in agreeing to attend a university.

I majored in philosophy in undergrad. Please enlighten me on what the "professional philosopher standards" are that I somehow agreed to comply with when I paid the university tuition. Also, please explain to me how my "philosophy apprenticeship" applies when I am taking astronomy and anthropology courses.

Surely you don't actually believe anything you said in that post?

EDIT: Pearalegal already beat me to the punch:

Pearalegal wrote:lulz.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: What not to wear

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:22 pm

fl0w wrote:
kwhitegocubs wrote:I always took classroom participation as the merit of the ideas the student expressed in classroom debates and the like. I guess I didn't think that wearing "appropriate" clothes would be a substitute for some level of actual intellectual participation when compared to an active but "ill-dressed" peer.

I very much operate in a philosophical world. It's the only thing that keeps me within a broad arm's length of sanity. I actually don't approve of a meritocracy myself, because I don't believe in free will from a determinist perspective, but do believe that a meritocracy based solely on idea and ideal is superior to needlessly clouding those mythical values in a thick layer of arbitrary social and (usually) ethnocentric values. Certainly some level of socialization is inescapable, but propagating and endorsing these arbitrary traits as a value-added component to any kind of meritocracy merely exacerbates the rigidity and intolerance of society, while diminishing its capacity to look rationally upon creative endeavors.


so i ran this through google translator and it gave me "i want to wear a sponge-bob t-shirt and daisy duke jean shorts to all of my job interviews because no matter what i wear, people should ignore it and [strike]think i'm great[/strike] base their judgment of me (positive or negative) on my ideas, speech, demonstration of knowledge, and history of academic/professional achievement". am i doing it right?

Fixed.

I was actually saying more than just that, but I'm fighting flippant with flippant.




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