Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

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FuturehoyaLawya
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby FuturehoyaLawya » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:07 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
billyez wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Well, have you been rejected anywhere???..

p.s. my advice to URMs is to live with the irrational fear that the URM boost does not exist. This fear has led me to take the LSAT and write all my application material the cycle before Im applying. I plan on asking for my recommendations after spring break, perfecting my ps/diversity statement over the summer and having all my applications ready to go the first day they are available. I'm no expert(only an undergrad junior) but I do think that people get wrapped up in the urm boost and take it easy a bit.


What makes this so worrisome isn't that it can be noted as just a matter of URM's overestimating the URM boost. I'm not willing to say that 64 percent of AA applicants applied to top schools with unqualified numbers.



Definitely not 64% but I wouldnt doubt a significant percentage are (20-30%). I know a few AAs applying to only t20 schools with a 158 LSAT and 3.4 GPA in Criminology. Speaking of which, many URM think any major related to the law (criminology, criminal justice, pre-law studies, etc.) will be favored by law schools.


i know many ORM think the same thing......

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JazzOne
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:08 pm

FuturehoyaLawya wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
billyez wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Well, have you been rejected anywhere???..

p.s. my advice to URMs is to live with the irrational fear that the URM boost does not exist. This fear has led me to take the LSAT and write all my application material the cycle before Im applying. I plan on asking for my recommendations after spring break, perfecting my ps/diversity statement over the summer and having all my applications ready to go the first day they are available. I'm no expert(only an undergrad junior) but I do think that people get wrapped up in the urm boost and take it easy a bit.


What makes this so worrisome isn't that it can be noted as just a matter of URM's overestimating the URM boost. I'm not willing to say that 64 percent of AA applicants applied to top schools with unqualified numbers.



Definitely not 64% but I wouldnt doubt a significant percentage are (20-30%). I know a few AAs applying to only t20 schools with a 158 LSAT and 3.4 GPA in Criminology. Speaking of which, many URM think any major related to the law (criminology, criminal justice, pre-law studies, etc.) will be favored by law schools.


i know many ORM think the same thing......

Asians think that?

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Borhas
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Borhas » Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:49 pm

talibkweli wrote:
Borhas wrote:
talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the hell out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


Do you think anyones in the mood to feel sympathetic to some guy that's complaining about other people's cycles without even having a rejection yet?


so, "i currently have no t14 acceptances" apparently equals "i have no rejections."

good work.


well let's see it's Jan 10, if you got a rejection letter it's because you applied EA or ED and thus you used you pre-Dec LSAT which wasn't 174 you got in Dec, in which case using your post Dec 174 as part your little self pittyfest doesn't make too much sense.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm

Borhas wrote:
talibkweli wrote:
Borhas wrote:
talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the hell out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


Do you think anyones in the mood to feel sympathetic to some guy that's complaining about other people's cycles without even having a rejection yet?


so, "i currently have no t14 acceptances" apparently equals "i have no rejections."

good work.


well let's see it's Jan 10, if you got a rejection letter it's because you applied EA or ED and thus you used you pre-Dec LSAT which wasn't 174 you got in Dec, in which case using your post Dec 174 as part your little self pittyfest doesn't make too much sense.


fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Fancy Pants » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:12 pm

talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


So you ended up reporting your AA status on your apps? Didn't you say for awhile you were going to leave that part out because you didn't want to take advantage of it?

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ruleser
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ruleser » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:20 pm

billyez wrote:
ruleser wrote:This is the meat of the article, and the flaw:
"What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools."

Yes, their scores are improving, but from what, 2.2 to 2.9? While something like that would be a great increase, and bring them fairly close to white applicants, there's just a huge difference between 2.9 and 3.2 even for LS. And there's a huge difference between 155 and 160. Without hard numbers, this article is meaningless.

This being the issue is sort of implied later when the article says:
“A big part of it is that many schools base their admissions criteria not on whether students have a reasonable chance of success, but how those L.S.A.T. numbers are going to affect their rankings in the U.S. News & World Report,” Mr. Nussbaumer said. “Deans get fired if the rankings drop, so they set their L.S.A.T. requirements very high."

So what's happening is yes, the numbers among these groups are improving, but still are not good enough to get into law schools. A few get in by URM AA, but the schools can't wholesale allow large numbers of people with subpar numbers. In the meantime, more crazy white folk are willing to plop down $150K to attend T4.

Also, we don't know what schools the minorities studied applied to - did they try only T1 mainly, T30, thinking their URM would get them in and so get shut out?

In short, without a single specific included in the article about what their numbers are or where they apply, this article is just doody.


The study is linked. The numbers are clearly noted in there. It supports your assertion of the increase of GPA being relative - I think it was 2.70 to 2.96 for AA. It still doesn't change the overwhelming number of law school applicants that are minorities that aren't accepted.

Thanks for pointing out the link - I can't pull up the #s for some reason, but the fact that the number I guessed, 2.9, and the real #, 2.9 are the same means the point may be valid. Scores have gotten better, but have not crossed the threshold. 2.9 is not good enough, even with URM, for top schools. I don't know if it mentions in there what schools they are being turned away from, ie if this includes T3/T4

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WrappedUpInBooks
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby WrappedUpInBooks » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:29 pm

billyez wrote:The point of the matter is 64 percent of AA's and 46 percent of Mexican-Americans who applied to law school from 2003 to 2008 were denied admission to every single law schoolt hat they applied to. You can say what you want, but you can't make me believe that of those 64 percent more than half of them only applied to the top ranked schools. I admit, the argument of the study would be a heck of a lot more palatable and stronger if it compiled data of the schools that these folks applied too, but these applicants weren't any different from us. When I got rejected from UT and Georgetown I widened my net and applied to lower ranked schools. You folks probably did the same if you were rejected from higher schools. It's common sense. I don't see why you can make the assumption that 64 percent of AA law applicants and 46 percent of Mexican-American applicants applied to the Top 20, got rejected from all of them and didn't apply to any other schools.


Thing is, minority students also tend to apply later in the application cycle. This means they don't have the opportunity to see where they are accepted, and then apply to more schools.

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:32 pm

WrappedUpInBooks wrote:Thing is, minority students also tend to apply later in the application cycle. This means they don't have the opportunity to see where they are accepted, and then apply to more schools.


What justification do you have for this? Is that actually true? I'm genuinely curious.

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WrappedUpInBooks
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby WrappedUpInBooks » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:36 pm

You Gotta Have Faith wrote:
WrappedUpInBooks wrote:Thing is, minority students also tend to apply later in the application cycle. This means they don't have the opportunity to see where they are accepted, and then apply to more schools.


What justification do you have for this? Is that actually true? I'm genuinely curious.


I did read a study verifying this that was posted on TLS, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Can anyone else help with the link?

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:41 pm

WrappedUpInBooks wrote:
You Gotta Have Faith wrote:
WrappedUpInBooks wrote:Thing is, minority students also tend to apply later in the application cycle. This means they don't have the opportunity to see where they are accepted, and then apply to more schools.


What justification do you have for this? Is that actually true? I'm genuinely curious.


I did read a study verifying this that was posted on TLS, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Can anyone else help with the link?



well, until you can find and name the study, i can't take the statement at face-value. although, it makes an intriguing hypothesis for a potential research project!

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:42 pm

Fancy Pants wrote:
talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


So you ended up reporting your AA status on your apps? Didn't you say for awhile you were going to leave that part out because you didn't want to take advantage of it?


yeah, that had to do with me having a giant inferiority complex. i'm a pretty staunch supporter of affirmative action, but i'm not nearly pragmatic enough to just take the best i can get because of it: i'd lose my mind if my lsat was too far off my school's median.

but since i ultimately scored pretty well, i have no problem checking the box and providing some context for my achievements through essays and stuff. i'm just not rational enough to continence succeeding because of my race alone i guess.

does that make sense, or did i just babble incoherently?
Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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WrappedUpInBooks
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby WrappedUpInBooks » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:44 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:
WrappedUpInBooks wrote:
You Gotta Have Faith wrote:
WrappedUpInBooks wrote:Thing is, minority students also tend to apply later in the application cycle. This means they don't have the opportunity to see where they are accepted, and then apply to more schools.


What justification do you have for this? Is that actually true? I'm genuinely curious.


I did read a study verifying this that was posted on TLS, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Can anyone else help with the link?



well, until you can find and name the study, i can't take the statement at face-value. although, it makes an intriguing hypothesis for a potential research project!


Found: http://lsacnet.lsac.org/data/National-A ... s-2008.pdf

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:45 pm

talibkweli wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


So you ended up reporting your AA status on your apps? Didn't you say for awhile you were going to leave that part out because you didn't want to take advantage of it?


yeah, that had to do with me having a giant inferiority complex. i'm a pretty staunch supporter of affirmative action, but i'm not nearly pragmatic enough to just take the best i can get because of it: i'd lose my mind if my lsat was too far off my school's median.

but since i ultimately scored pretty well, i have no problem checking the box and providing some context for my achievements through essays and stuff. i'm just not practical (or smart) enough to continence succeeding because of my race alone i guess.

does that make sense, or did i just babble incoherently?


your rationale does make sense. but, to be honest, it's hypocritical as well. but do whatever you see fit to get into your schools of choice!

if you like it, i love it it

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Borhas
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Borhas » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:49 pm

talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


I know what you mean dude... no worries

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:55 pm




Thanks a bunch, Wrapped! And you got that info relatively quickly! Looks pretty interesting. From the info, I noticed however that, when you consider each of the 3 phases of the application cycle, blacks tend to make up 20% of applications from August to February as opposed to only 16% of all apps. from March to the end of July. With these numbers, can one truly determine whether or not blacks "tend" to apply later in the cycle? or, better yet, because of the disparity of the number of students from the minority groups, esp. blacks, can the study, on the whole, be misleading?

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newyorker88
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby newyorker88 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:41 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:



Thanks a bunch, Wrapped! And you got that info relatively quickly! Looks pretty interesting. From the info, I noticed however that, when you consider each of the 3 phases of the application cycle, blacks tend to make up 20% of applications from August to February as opposed to only 16% of all apps. from March to the end of July. With these numbers, can one truly determine whether or not blacks "tend" to apply later in the cycle? or, better yet, because of the disparity of the number of students from the minority groups, esp. blacks, can the study, on the whole, be misleading?


Yea the study is flawed and doesn't demonstrate that blacks tend to apply later in the cycle. In order to establish that they would need to look at what percentage OF BLACKS apply when ( i.e. 30% of black applicants apply by January) as opposed to what percentage blacks make up of the entire applicant pool at a given time (i.e. 30% of the applicant pool is black in january).

SandyC877
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby SandyC877 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:58 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the hell out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


seems like the law schools are taking their sweet time because they are seriously debating whether to give you a full ride only or a full ride + stipends.

MichelFoucault
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby MichelFoucault » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:03 pm

talibkweli wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


So you ended up reporting your AA status on your apps? Didn't you say for awhile you were going to leave that part out because you didn't want to take advantage of it?


yeah, that had to do with me having a giant inferiority complex. i'm a pretty staunch supporter of affirmative action, but i'm not nearly pragmatic enough to just take the best i can get because of it: i'd lose my mind if my lsat was too far off my school's median.

but since i ultimately scored pretty well, i have no problem checking the box and providing some context for my achievements through essays and stuff. i'm just not rational enough to continence succeeding because of my race alone i guess.

does that make sense, or did i just babble incoherently?


Did you check your ethnicity on the LSAT? Perhaps it is required for schools to count you as a minority in order to game admissions. That might be why you faired so poorly.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:09 pm

MichelFoucault wrote:
talibkweli wrote:
Fancy Pants wrote:
talibkweli wrote:fair enough.

i still think we're all entitled to moments of frustration during the application process. i'm normally not a whiner, but this stuff can bring out the worst in all of us.


So you ended up reporting your AA status on your apps? Didn't you say for awhile you were going to leave that part out because you didn't want to take advantage of it?


yeah, that had to do with me having a giant inferiority complex. i'm a pretty staunch supporter of affirmative action, but i'm not nearly pragmatic enough to just take the best i can get because of it: i'd lose my mind if my lsat was too far off my school's median.

but since i ultimately scored pretty well, i have no problem checking the box and providing some context for my achievements through essays and stuff. i'm just not rational enough to continence succeeding because of my race alone i guess.

does that make sense, or did i just babble incoherently?


Did you check your ethnicity on the LSAT? Perhaps it is required for schools to count you as a minority in order to game admissions. That might be why you faired so poorly.


1. i did check indicate that on my lsat, although doing so isn't relevant.

2. i wouldn't go so far as to say that i've done poorly given that its still early jan. that might be right relative to the tls-lore of the sky parting and angels descending from the heavens playing trumpets and raining t14 schollys all over blacks with 99th percentile lsats. however, that is probably too optimistic an expectation
Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ATOIsp07 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:10 pm

note to the talibkweli: chill down and relax. just because you haven't had any acceptances yet, it doesn't mean you're looking at bad news for the rest of your cycle. but, from what i can gather, you're GPA is probably below the 25% median..maybe even the 15% and you re-took the LSAT in December (and killed it!) so you'll probably be looking at a T14 offer somewhere (as long as they havent filled their URM quotas yet, j/k).

and, last but not least, you shouldn't apply to law school thinking it's T14 or bust. it's nice to have a J from HLS but, if you were really passionate about practicing law, you would still be attending regardless of making it to a T14 or not. but you're ambition is admirable.

MichelFoucault
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby MichelFoucault » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:15 pm

talibkweli wrote:
MichelFoucault wrote:
Did you check your ethnicity on the LSAT? Perhaps it is required for schools to count you as a minority in order to game admissions. That might be why you faired so poorly.


1. i did check indicate that on my lsat, although doing so isn't relevant.

2. i wouldn't go so far as to say that i've done poorly given that its still early jan. that might be right relative to the tls-lore of the sky parting and angels decending from the heavens playing flutes and raining t14 schollys all over blacks with 99th percentile lsats. however, that is probably too optimistic an expectation


I personally think it is still to early in the game to be so down. I can't imagine law schools would pull the trigger that quick, but without doubt one of them will have to bite towards the end of the cycle.

happy0313
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby happy0313 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:14 pm

I think its plausible that minorities apply later in the cycle as apps can be expensive....this was my problem at least. I got some fee waivers but still...



newyorker88 wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:



Thanks a bunch, Wrapped! And you got that info relatively quickly! Looks pretty interesting. From the info, I noticed however that, when you consider each of the 3 phases of the application cycle, blacks tend to make up 20% of applications from August to February as opposed to only 16% of all apps. from March to the end of July. With these numbers, can one truly determine whether or not blacks "tend" to apply later in the cycle? or, better yet, because of the disparity of the number of students from the minority groups, esp. blacks, can the study, on the whole, be misleading?


Yea the study is flawed and doesn't demonstrate that blacks tend to apply later in the cycle. In order to establish that they would need to look at what percentage OF BLACKS apply when ( i.e. 30% of black applicants apply by January) as opposed to what percentage blacks make up of the entire applicant pool at a given time (i.e. 30% of the applicant pool is black in january).




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