Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

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je_ne_regrette_rien
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Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby je_ne_regrette_rien » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:46 pm

This is from the NYTimes Jan 6th:

While law schools added about 3,000 seats for first-year students from 1993 to 2008, both the percentage and the number of black and Mexican-American law students declined in that period, according to a study by a Columbia Law School professor.

What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/education/07law.html


This was surprising to me. I know that African Americans and Mexicans get boosts in the admissions cycle, but apparently this study says that not enough is being done to create diverse classes in the nation's law schools.

Do all schools give African Americans and Mexicans boosts or just the top schools who can afford to admit a few students with relatively lower scores?

Edit: And if their scores have been slowly increasing, why isn't their representation following suit? The article says that "61% of black applicants... were denied acceptance at all of the law schools to which they applied." What type of schools are they applying to that they can't get into a single one!?

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:49 pm

je_ne_regrette_rien wrote:This is from the NYTimes Jan 6th:

While law schools added about 3,000 seats for first-year students from 1993 to 2008, both the percentage and the number of black and Mexican-American law students declined in that period, according to a study by a Columbia Law School professor.

What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/education/07law.html


This was surprising to me. I know that African Americans and Mexicans get boosts in the admissions cycle, but apparently this study says that not enough is being done to create diverse classes in the nation's law schools.

Do all schools give African Americans and Mexicans boosts or just the top schools who can afford to admit a few students with relatively lower scores?


as someone who cares a great deal about this issue, i wish you hadn't posted this article. its reasoning is so bad that it actually does more harm than good. i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.

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Unitas
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:53 pm

talibkweli wrote:
je_ne_regrette_rien wrote:This is from the NYTimes Jan 6th:

While law schools added about 3,000 seats for first-year students from 1993 to 2008, both the percentage and the number of black and Mexican-American law students declined in that period, according to a study by a Columbia Law School professor.

What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/education/07law.html


This was surprising to me. I know that African Americans and Mexicans get boosts in the admissions cycle, but apparently this study says that not enough is being done to create diverse classes in the nation's law schools.

Do all schools give African Americans and Mexicans boosts or just the top schools who can afford to admit a few students with relatively lower scores?


as someone who cares a great deal about this issue, i wish you hadn't posted this article. its reasoning is so bad that it actually does more harm than good. i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.


So not in the mood for this debate today. IBTL?

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je_ne_regrette_rien
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby je_ne_regrette_rien » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:54 pm

talibkweli wrote:
je_ne_regrette_rien wrote:This is from the NYTimes Jan 6th:

While law schools added about 3,000 seats for first-year students from 1993 to 2008, both the percentage and the number of black and Mexican-American law students declined in that period, according to a study by a Columbia Law School professor.

What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/education/07law.html


This was surprising to me. I know that African Americans and Mexicans get boosts in the admissions cycle, but apparently this study says that not enough is being done to create diverse classes in the nation's law schools.

Do all schools give African Americans and Mexicans boosts or just the top schools who can afford to admit a few students with relatively lower scores?


as someone who cares a great deal about this issue, i wish you hadn't posted this article. its reasoning is so bad that it actually does more harm than good. i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.



I was hoping all of you would tear it apart. But hey, it's Saturday afternoon. And I'm feeling awfully groggy myself.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:58 pm

look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the hell out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.
Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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WhatSarahSaid
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby WhatSarahSaid » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:01 pm

The split between Mexican-Americans and other Latinos that the study makes seems pretty arbitrary, for one.

But from 2003 to 2008, 61 percent of black applicants and 46 percent of Mexican-American applicants were denied acceptance at all of the law schools to which they applied, compared with 34 percent of white applicants.


This bit seems questionable. My imagination says that white applicants, on average, apply to more schools than blacks and Mexican-Americans, meaning that they have a smaller chance of being completely shut out.

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IAFG
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:03 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.

URMs are often considered a bit later, don't get scared yet. <3

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je_ne_regrette_rien
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby je_ne_regrette_rien » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:06 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


PMed you. Don't sweat. They already know that they're going to accept you. YOU HAVE A 174.

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Fancy Pants
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Fancy Pants » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:35 pm

talibkweli wrote:i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.


Found it!

“What’s happening, as the American population becomes more diverse, is that the lawyer corps and judges are remaining predominantly white,” said John Nussbaumer, associate dean of Thomas M. Cooley Law School’s campus in Auburn Hills, Mich., which enrolls an unusually high percentage of African-American students.

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IAFG
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:36 pm

lol FP

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Fancy Pants wrote:
talibkweli wrote:i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.


Found it!

“What’s happening, as the American population becomes more diverse, is that the lawyer corps and judges are remaining predominantly white,” said John Nussbaumer, associate dean of Thomas M. Cooley Law School’s campus in Auburn Hills, Mich., which enrolls an unusually high percentage of African-American students.


lol. seriously though its pretty rich that cooley's dean says their numbers are only SLIGHTLY worse than other schools. thats like saying gary coleman was only slightly shorter than andre the giant

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NayBoer
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby NayBoer » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:22 pm

I thought the problem was that the number of black and Mexican applicants was static while the number of white applicants was rising.

Checking TaxProfBlog, here it is:
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... study.html

And the graph:
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/salt/file ... nstant.swf

Looks like the number of certain URMs applying has been moving around the same number, but the number of law schools and LS seats has gone up.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Vincent Vega » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:34 pm

The article doesn't address the notion that Cooley lets pretty much anyone in, rather than favoring any group or groups. It's pretty easy to say you don't discriminate against anyone when you include everyone.

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bighead715
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby bighead715 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:54 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


this baffles me

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JazzOne
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:00 pm

bighead715 wrote:
talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


this baffles me

Maybe it's the GPA?

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ruleser
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby ruleser » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:20 pm

This is the meat of the article, and the flaw:
"What makes the declines particularly troubling, said the professor, Conrad Johnson, is that in that same period, both groups improved their college grade-point averages and their scores on the Law School Admission Test, or L.S.A.T.

“Even though their scores and grades are improving, and are very close to those of white applicants, African-Americans and Mexican-Americans are increasingly being shut out of law schools,” said Mr. Johnson, who oversees the Lawyering in the Digital Age Clinic at Columbia, which collaborated with the Society of American Law Teachers to examine minority enrollment rates at American law schools."

Yes, their scores are improving, but from what, 2.2 to 2.9? While something like that would be a great increase, and bring them fairly close to white applicants, there's just a huge difference between 2.9 and 3.2 even for LS. And there's a huge difference between 155 and 160. Without hard numbers, this article is meaningless.

This being the issue is sort of implied later when the article says:
“A big part of it is that many schools base their admissions criteria not on whether students have a reasonable chance of success, but how those L.S.A.T. numbers are going to affect their rankings in the U.S. News & World Report,” Mr. Nussbaumer said. “Deans get fired if the rankings drop, so they set their L.S.A.T. requirements very high."

So what's happening is yes, the numbers among these groups are improving, but still are not good enough to get into law schools. A few get in by URM AA, but the schools can't wholesale allow large numbers of people with subpar numbers. In the meantime, more crazy white folk are willing to plop down $150K to attend T4.

Also, we don't know what schools the minorities studied applied to - did they try only T1 mainly, T30, thinking their URM would get them in and so get shut out?

In short, without a single specific included in the article about what their numbers are or where they apply, this article is just doody.
Last edited by ruleser on Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby Sauer Grapes » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:24 pm

....
Last edited by Sauer Grapes on Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rookhawk
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby rookhawk » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:39 pm

-
Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tjwil326
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby tjwil326 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:34 pm

edit
Last edited by tjwil326 on Tue May 17, 2011 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby MC Southstar » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:35 pm

tjwil326 wrote:Not sure if this was said in different words already, but I think URM applicants can overestimate the boost they get from their URM status. Not saying the boost is insignificant, it surely is very significant. However if a URM applicant has a 150 with a 3.3, the applicant may still shoot for the t14 because they know anything is possible with the URM status; at the same time the applicant may neglect to apply to lower ranked schools because he/she thinks one of the higher ranked schools will bite. I'm not sure how many URM applicants have done this, but I admit I have. I am Mex URM, and last cycle I applied on Jan 31st to 9 of the t14(just like was said earlier - URMs might not put enough effort into apps). Stats 161, 3.53(3.68) from UC Berk. I was bummed about my LSAT score so I really didn't want to apply until I retook; towards the end of January I decided what's the worst that could happen so I threw some apps out there. I was put in the reserve pile at Columbia and Cornell, denied at all other schools. This cycle I applied much earlier, and applied to schools that would accept my numbers without my URM status as well as some in the t14.


I think this explains it perfectly.

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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:58 pm

rookhawk wrote:While I don't have data at the ready to support this, I think its a probable conclusion:

While URM GPA/LSAT numbers are going up, there applications to law schools may not be moving up as fast as white students. Further, if a huge pile of white students are applying to law schools, many of those are getting in not solely by their hard scores, but also by their soft credentials, community service, advocacy and extra-curriculars.

Another observation I'd suggest about minorities in general:

As a collective group, minorities think differently than the majority. When you're a first or second generation college graduate you have something to prove, an inheritance to earn yourself, and a burgeoning desire to move up a few pegs in social class. Bottom line - many minorities throw their hat in the ring for law school half-heartedly, they have a plan to build a business or leverage other dreams but they figure "heck, if I can get an inexpensive law degree that'd be swell". Naturally, if you are even mildly apathetic about your law school dreams the admissions teams can smell it a mile away.

Regardless of color, I always enjoy watching underdog first-generation college grads enthusiasm and desire to grow. So many entrepreneurs have been minted through this insatiable desire to ascend the lower/lower-middle class. (as was my experience)

-Rookhawk


I'm not sure about the apathy thing, given the time, expense, and emotional cost of applying to law school. I did get a sense from my own dean that the school is looking for people who have thought this through, however. In my own application, I now realize that I failed to connect the dots, and show how and why I wanted to move from my past career/educational background into law. I knew I had the passion, but at the time I could not articulate it as clearly as I can today. This may also be true of URM students, but I wouldn't call it apathy. I hesitate to use the term marketing in reference to law school apps, but the concept is broadly applicable.

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mikeyp
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby mikeyp » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:00 pm

talibkweli wrote:i wonder how long it takes someone to spot the glaring flaw in the article.


found it!

What’s happening, as the American population becomes more diverse, is that the lawyer corps and judges are remaining predominantly white,” said John Nussbaumer, associate dean of Thomas M. Cooley Law School

EDIT: someone found it before me :(

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mikeyp
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby mikeyp » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:03 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


what? seriously? it's JANUARY!!

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:10 pm

OperaSoprano wrote: I hesitate to use the term marketing in reference to law school apps, but the concept is broadly applicable.


Absolutely so. In applications, you are literally marketing yourself to other law schools. It's mildly depressing to think of it like that, but it's true.

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WhiskeyGuy
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Re: Law School Admissions Lag Among Minorities

Postby WhiskeyGuy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:22 pm

talibkweli wrote:look i am a black male from an inner city with a 174 and no t14 acceptances yet, so i'm in no mood to be sympathetic towards people who rail against the supposed urm bump. every time i look at lsn there is another white or asian person with WORSE numbers than me just pwning the shit out of my cycle. this is michigan vs appalachian state--i went in heavily favored only to be humiliated at the end.

i really am not feeling intellectually curious enough to debate big picture stuff right now, but hey just to put it out there, the article sucks b/c it doesnt address the possibility that white and asians have had faster increases in scores.


The fact that you got the 174 in December hopefully explains why you haven't yet heard from schools.




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