EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:03 pm

dudester wrote:How would fulfilling a 95% response rate requirement by reporting $0 earnings for people who could very well be making $160,000 provide "accurate" data? How does some students' inability to do basic math and draw proper inferences from the data schools provide become the government's business?


Those loans come from who, again? If you don't want government strings, don't take government money.

EDIT: As to the 90+% response rate thing, you are of course right. Lets just go with those who don't report salary as earning $0. I'd rather bias the data toward lower salaries and give schools a very strong incentive to get complete information.
Last edited by Space_Cowboy on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rw2264
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby rw2264 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:04 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
swheat wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:Well it's supply and demand.

There are enough fucking losers who are inspired by these "I have an uncle/friend/uncle's friend who went to a T3 and made a bajillion dollars" that they attend these garbage law schools. Why wouldn't they keep opening law schools? They're probably cash cows.

I have no sympathy for those people. They get what they paid for.


I have sympathy for them. They've been lied to all their lives that higher education = big bucks. They see past results (eg - uncle who went to TTTT and earns bajillion bucks) and assume that future results will be the same for them. There is some kind of great cultural myth in America regarding higher education and that plus the easy availability of student loans leads to a borderline unconscionable situation, IMO.



It's not like the information isn't out there. If people are stupid enough to fall for such an obvious con, that's their fault. It's like people who buy really really bad lottery tickets. Maybe there was a lure there, but if you're not an idiot, you can figure it out.


bad lottery tickets? what?

you know the chances are slim when you buy a lottery ticket. when you go to a professional school you think you will be employable because there are so many less people with your level of education in this country.

for most people its not about the prestige of the school during undergrad but location/convenience, and they extend that to law school. TLS is crazy skewed in the sense that we're mostly t14-whores.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:06 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
It's not like the information isn't out there. If people are stupid enough to fall for such an obvious con, that's their fault. It's like people who buy really really bad lottery tickets. Maybe there was a lure there, but if you're not an idiot, you can figure it out.


Cal Western's (T4) Employment Stats: (http://www.cwsl.edu/content/career_serv ... tStats.pdf).

Not enough information to come anywhere close to making an information decision. The common trick these schools pull it to have employment status reported by 90+%, but salary data reported only by the better earners.

EDIT: meant to respond to awesomepossum

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:09 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
dudester wrote:How would fulfilling a 95% response rate requirement by reporting $0 earnings for people who could very well be making $160,000 provide "accurate" data? How does some students' inability to do basic math and draw proper inferences from the data schools provide become the government's business?


Those loans come from who, again? If you don't want government strings, don't take government money.


Well, that'd be a swell response if you were arguing that individual students should have to pay off their loans immediately if they don't report their salary to the schools. What you're actually saying is that the entire class of 2013 shouldn't get to apply for federal loans if 6% of the class of 2009 chose not to answer the employment survey...

Romes5524
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Romes5524 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:10 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
swheat wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:Well it's supply and demand.

There are enough fucking losers who are inspired by these "I have an uncle/friend/uncle's friend who went to a T3 and made a bajillion dollars" that they attend these garbage law schools. Why wouldn't they keep opening law schools? They're probably cash cows.

I have no sympathy for those people. They get what they paid for.


I have sympathy for them. They've been lied to all their lives that higher education = big bucks. They see past results (eg - uncle who went to TTTT and earns bajillion bucks) and assume that future results will be the same for them. There is some kind of great cultural myth in America regarding higher education and that plus the easy availability of student loans leads to a borderline unconscionable situation, IMO.



It's not like the information isn't out there. If people are stupid enough to fall for such an obvious con, that's their fault. It's like people who buy really really bad lottery tickets. Maybe there was a lure there, but if you're not an idiot, you can figure it out.


as if things are that simple.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:10 pm

rw2264 wrote:
bad lottery tickets? what?

you know the chances are slim when you buy a lottery ticket. when you go to a professional school you think you will be employable because there are so many less people with your level of education in this country.

for most people its not about the prestige of the school during undergrad but location/convenience, and they extend that to law school. TLS is crazy skewed in the sense that we're mostly t14-whores.



If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:12 pm

I'm sorry if I come across as unsympathetic, but looking at the schools as the rip off artists and the students as the victims is just silly. The schools are making a buck so they they have every incentive to do it as long as they can fill the seats.

The students should look after themselves. If they are too stupid to do so and attend some crap school, that's their own damn fault.

Ironically, that's the rational behind so many lawsuits....people do something foolish and then look for others to blame.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:13 pm

awesomepossum wrote:If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


Someone clearly hasn't tried to get salary information from a TTT's website.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Romes5524 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:14 pm

awesomepossum wrote:I'm sorry if I come across as unsympathetic, but looking at the schools as the rip off artists and the students as the victims is just silly. The schools are making a buck so they they have every incentive to do it as long as they can fill the seats.

The students should look after themselves. If they are too stupid to do so and attend some crap school, that's their own damn fault.

Ironically, that's the rational behind so many lawsuits....people do something foolish and then look for others to blame.


It's not about sympathy, but you're unjustly overlooking a lot of considerations to make those claims. But I do agree with you. We can't rely on others to look out for us, especially when making such a big commitment.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:16 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


Someone clearly hasn't tried to get salary information from a TTT's website.



Agreed. I haven't even looked at a TTT website. However, it's easy enough to find information about the overall state of jobs for lawyers and the way that legal hiring happens. Just for shits and giggles I just googled "law job prospects" and there was a fountain of info right there.

EDIT: I lied. I have looked at Cooley's website to find their awesome rankings. I have also looked up http://www.peoplescollegeoflaw.edu/

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:18 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
rw2264 wrote:
bad lottery tickets? what?

you know the chances are slim when you buy a lottery ticket. when you go to a professional school you think you will be employable because there are so many less people with your level of education in this country.

for most people its not about the prestige of the school during undergrad but location/convenience, and they extend that to law school. TLS is crazy skewed in the sense that we're mostly t14-whores.



If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


You are extrapolating your own characteristics onto others. I attend a lower T1 it is pretty clear to me that most of the students in my class did not realize that study supplements were an absolute must for exam prep. I would have absolutely bombed Civpro and Contracts without using E&E and Emanuels. That information is all over TLS, and you would think that most T1 students would be aware, but in my experience they are not.

If you are an unsophisticated, young, unwed mother and you see somebody like you telling you that Everest College will make all your money problems go away, and you are smart enough not to fall for other get rich quick schemes but have been told your whole life by teachers, school administrators, parents, etc. that education is your ticket to a better life, then yeah I can see a reasonable person in their shoes falling for that trick. And sadly, the difference between TTTs and Everest College is negligible as far as I can tell.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:19 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


Someone clearly hasn't tried to get salary information from a TTT's website.



Agreed. I haven't even looked at a TTT website. However, it's easy enough to find information about the overall state of jobs for lawyers and the way that legal hiring happens. Just for shits and giggles I just googled "law job prospects" and there was a fountain of info right there.


People tend to consider numbers like these (http://www.cwsl.edu/content/career_serv ... tStats.pdf) along with internet musings. I simply believe there should a standard report requirement that makes it easy to assess what outcomes one is looking at when signing on with a certain school.

ps494
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:20 pm

Obviously perspective law students should realize what complete and utter bullshit employment/salary statistics are, but that doesn't excuse law schools from deliberately deceiving applicants. How in the hell can all these schools possibly report a 125k median salary with a 30% response rate? Even better, how can the admissions dean of Cooley (a school that made its own rankings) possibly believe that Cooley should be in the top 14?

We should seriously get a formal petition or something together that publicly denounces these law schools for defrauding applicants. We should also make a petition condemning the ABA for allowing any school with a a building and teachers to call themselves a law school.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:21 pm

swheat wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
rw2264 wrote:
bad lottery tickets? what?

you know the chances are slim when you buy a lottery ticket. when you go to a professional school you think you will be employable because there are so many less people with your level of education in this country.

for most people its not about the prestige of the school during undergrad but location/convenience, and they extend that to law school. TLS is crazy skewed in the sense that we're mostly t14-whores.



If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


You are extrapolating your own characteristics onto others. I attend a lower T1 it is pretty clear to me that most of the students in my class did not realize that study supplements were an absolute must for exam prep. I would have absolutely bombed Civpro and Contracts without using E&E and Emanuels. That information is all over TLS, and you would think that most T1 students would be aware, but in my experience they are not.

If you are an unsophisticated, young, unwed mother and you see somebody like you telling you that Everest College will make all your money problems go away, and you are smart enough not to fall for other get rich quick schemes but have been told your whole life by teachers, school administrators, parents, etc. that education is your ticket to a better life, then yeah I can see a reasonable person in their shoes falling for that trick. And sadly, the difference between TTTs and Everest College is negligible as far as I can tell.



Okay...admittedly that girl who is on the "you can go to college in your pajamas" commercials is pretty cute. I might be tempted....not to go to that college, but that's another issue altogether.

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:22 pm

ps494 wrote:Obviously perspective law students should realize what complete and utter bullshit employment/salary statistics are, but that doesn't excuse law schools from deliberately deceiving applicants. How in the hell can all these schools possibly report a 125k median salary with a 30% response rate? Even better, how can the admissions dean of Cooley (a school that made its own rankings) possibly believe that Cooley should be in the top 14?

We should seriously get a formal petition or something together that publicly denounces these law schools for defrauding applicants. We should also make a petition condemning the ABA for allowing any school with a a building and teachers to call themselves a law school.



Ooooooh.... A PETITION!!!!


How fearsome!

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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:22 pm

swheat wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
rw2264 wrote:
bad lottery tickets? what?

you know the chances are slim when you buy a lottery ticket. when you go to a professional school you think you will be employable because there are so many less people with your level of education in this country.

for most people its not about the prestige of the school during undergrad but location/convenience, and they extend that to law school. TLS is crazy skewed in the sense that we're mostly t14-whores.



If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


You are extrapolating your own characteristics onto others. I attend a lower T1 it is pretty clear to me that most of the students in my class did not realize that study supplements were an absolute must for exam prep. I would have absolutely bombed Civpro and Contracts without using E&E and Emanuels. That information is all over TLS, and you would think that most T1 students would be aware, but in my experience they are not.

If you are an unsophisticated, young, unwed mother and you see somebody like you telling you that Everest College will make all your money problems go away, and you are smart enough not to fall for other get rich quick schemes but have been told your whole life by teachers, school administrators, parents, etc. that education is your ticket to a better life, then yeah I can see a reasonable person in their shoes falling for that trick. And sadly, the difference between TTTs and Everest College is negligible as far as I can tell.


+1. Law schools should be free to dupe to students, just not with federal money. If they want the benefit of GradPLUS loans, they should submit to a disclosure requirement.

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:25 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:If you have five minutes and access to the internet, you can figure it out.

Okay, okay, if you can't afford internet and you have no access to a public library with internet, you're forgiven. You may attend some craptacular law school and not be a total fool.


Someone clearly hasn't tried to get salary information from a TTT's website.



Agreed. I haven't even looked at a TTT website. However, it's easy enough to find information about the overall state of jobs for lawyers and the way that legal hiring happens. Just for shits and giggles I just googled "law job prospects" and there was a fountain of info right there.


People tend to consider numbers like these (http://www.cwsl.edu/content/career_serv ... tStats.pdf) along with internet musings. I simply believe there should a standard report requirement that makes it easy to assess what outcomes one is looking at when signing on with a certain school.


"Private Practice Breakdown % in this size firm
Self-Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%
2-10 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68%

11-25 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
26-50 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
51-100 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
101-250 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
251-500 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
501+ Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2%"

Those who think they're going to earn big bucks after graduating from that school deserve to be bankrupt

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:28 pm

dudester wrote:"Private Practice Breakdown % in this size firm
Self-Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%
2-10 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68%

11-25 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
26-50 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
51-100 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
101-250 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
251-500 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
501+ Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2%"

Those who think they're going to earn big bucks after graduating from that school deserve to be bankrupt


Do they?

Private Practice
Average Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . $75,633
Maximum Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . . $160,000

EDIT: I still don't see what the big deal is with requiring salary reporting as a pre-condition for federal loan eligibility.

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:30 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
dudester wrote:"Private Practice Breakdown % in this size firm
Self-Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%
2-10 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68%

11-25 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
26-50 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
51-100 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
101-250 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
251-500 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
501+ Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2%"

Those who think they're going to earn big bucks after graduating from that school deserve to be bankrupt


Do they?

Private Practice
Average Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . $75,633
Maximum Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . . $160,000


Yes!

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:33 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
dudester wrote:"Private Practice Breakdown % in this size firm
Self-Employed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7%
2-10 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 68%

11-25 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
26-50 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11%
51-100 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5%
101-250 Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2%
251-500 Attorney Firm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
501+ Attorney Firm. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2%"

Those who think they're going to earn big bucks after graduating from that school deserve to be bankrupt


Do they?

Private Practice
Average Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . $75,633
Maximum Overall Private Practice Salary . . . . . . . . . . . . . $160,000

EDIT: I still don't see what the big deal is with requiring salary reporting as a pre-condition for federal loan eligibility.


Fifth post from the top.

ps494
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:34 pm

You would have to be seriously brain-dead to not step back and make sure law is for you. Yet, probably only about 10% of those of TLS have done this, and maybe 1-2% of law applicants that have never been on TLS. Everyone thinks, 'well I don't know what else to do, so I guess I'll go into enormous amounts of debt. And law can't be that bad - all the lawyers in movies and on TV all date super models and drive a Ferrari.'

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General Tso
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:35 pm

dudester wrote:
Yes!


You really think unsophisticated people DESERVE to be bankrupt? You see no difference between the Cooley student who borrows 150k hoping for a better life and the drunkard who stumbles into a Vegas casino and gambles away his life savings?

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:38 pm

dudester wrote:Fifth post from the top.


Ah missed that. As I conceded, the 95+% reporting requirement was silly. Lets just go with those who don't report salary as earning $0. I'd rather bias the data toward lower salaries and give schools a very strong incentive to get complete information. The school can be eligible for GradPLUS loans but prospectives get to see how incomplete the data is. That good?

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lawfool
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby lawfool » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:41 pm

The first step could be something simple like a disclaimer that is required on ALL law school communications to applicants. Instead of from the Surgeon General, it should be from the Attorney General. Something like "Disclaimer: Applicants should carefully evaluate the (often manipulated) employment statistics with a skeptical mind before taking out mortgage-sized loans that will take 10-30 years to pay off. Assume you will not be in the top 10%." Require this in bold 20 pt font.

Maybe a 5 minute course after the LSAT ends to tell everyone the risks/rewards of various school tiers. :lol:
Last edited by lawfool on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

itsfine
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby itsfine » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:42 pm

kwhitegocubs wrote:Why can't you make students sign something before they can graduate, saying, "I promise to faithfully report my income and employment data to this school nine months from the date of graduation". Make it binding. That way, you'd have everybody report.




we wouldnt want to do that...bc those precious schools that rely on those precious numbers wont be able to afford their precious luxuries.




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