EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

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amputatedbrain
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EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby amputatedbrain » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:45 pm

Just thought the TLS community might find this interesting reading:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la- ... 7698.story
Last edited by amputatedbrain on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: LA Times Op-Ed on why law school is bad investment right now

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Title of thread does not match article.

Pearalegal
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Re: LA Times Op-Ed on why law school is bad investment right now

Postby Pearalegal » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:53 pm

I was distracted by the article about how Warren Beatty slept with 12,775 women.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: LA Times Op-Ed on why law school is bad investment right now

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:54 pm

Pearalegal wrote:I was distracted by the article about how Warren Beatty slept with 12,775 women.


1 a day for 36 years? Impressive.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: LA Times Op-Ed on why law school is bad investment right now

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:56 pm

<deleted>
Last edited by Space_Cowboy on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Romes5524
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Romes5524 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:02 pm

lol the title is now fitting.

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Kohinoor
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:03 pm

Didn't the ABA get sued last time it tried to bar a school from accreditation?

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:05 pm

<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>

ps494
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:06 pm

It is a good article, and it is just another reason for me to reconsider law school.

Romes5524
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Romes5524 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:07 pm

oh wait I thought the thread was about the American Basketball Association and how they treat athletes like crap????

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Helmholtz
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:09 pm

Kohinoor wrote:Didn't the ABA get sued last time it tried to bar a school from accreditation?


Yeah, I think so. I place much more blame on the craptastic TTT swindlers than I do the ABA.

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superserial
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby superserial » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:13 pm

shocking...

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Kohinoor
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:17 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>

Grats on shutting down 99% of the colleges and graduate schools in the country.

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General Tso
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:26 pm

ntzsch wrote:"Taking into account retirements, deaths and that the bureau's data is pre-recession, the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year. That is far fewer than what's needed to accommodate the 45,000 juris doctors graduating from U.S. law schools each year. "

So, 2/3 of J.D. grads are needed ITE?

this does not sound all that bad for someone at a T14 or T30 or T50, or even people with good ggrades basically anywhere, right? I mean, I guess the rub is that 2/3 of those 2/3 that are needed are needed for shitlaw?


Wonder what percentage of Pastry Chef grads are needed ITE

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:30 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>

Grats on shutting down 99% of the colleges and graduate schools in the country.


Yes, because that is what will happen if law schools are required to disclose some very basic information.

Why law schools in particular, you ask? Outside of medical school and business school, no other programs have a high percentage of students borrowing in excess of $100k. Business schools actually present good salary data and I don't exactly blogs like "Big Debt Small Medicine" popping up.

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:41 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>

Grats on shutting down 99% of the colleges and graduate schools in the country.


Yes, because that is what will happen if law schools are required to disclose some very basic information.

Why law schools in particular, you ask? Outside of medical school and business school, no other programs have a high percentage of students borrowing in excess of $100k. Business schools actually present good salary data and I don't exactly blogs like "Big Debt Small Medicine" popping up.


Um, you do know that it's not mandatory for grads to fill out the employment questionnaire, right?

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:50 pm

dudester wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>

Grats on shutting down 99% of the colleges and graduate schools in the country.


Yes, because that is what will happen if law schools are required to disclose some very basic information.

Why law schools in particular, you ask? Outside of medical school and business school, no other programs have a high percentage of students borrowing in excess of $100k. Business schools actually present good salary data and I don't exactly blogs like "Big Debt Small Medicine" popping up.


Um, you do know that it's not mandatory for grads to fill out the employment questionnaire, right?


Yes. I am quite aware of this. If grads don't want to fill out a survey (at graduation only), they don't have to. Report them as a earning $0. If students want to tank their school's ranking and the degree's value over the long term, whatever.

Right now, with freely available GradPLUS loans and IBR, there's ZERO incentive for law schools to not keep jacking up tuition. Providing data to allow people to make a sound decisions on the value of a $200k education seems like a small price to pay for receiving federal bailout funds.

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kalvano
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby kalvano » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:50 pm

It's not really like a cheap hooker, more like Eliot Sptizer-class.

awesomepossum
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:52 pm

Well it's supply and demand.

There are enough fucking losers who are inspired by these "I have an uncle/friend/uncle's friend who went to a T3 and made a bajillion dollars" that they attend these garbage law schools. Why wouldn't they keep opening law schools? They're probably cash cows.

I have no sympathy for those people. They get what they paid for.

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General Tso
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:55 pm

awesomepossum wrote:Well it's supply and demand.

There are enough fucking losers who are inspired by these "I have an uncle/friend/uncle's friend who went to a T3 and made a bajillion dollars" that they attend these garbage law schools. Why wouldn't they keep opening law schools? They're probably cash cows.

I have no sympathy for those people. They get what they paid for.


I have sympathy for them. They've been lied to all their lives that higher education = big bucks. They see past results (eg - uncle who went to TTTT and earns bajillion bucks) and assume that future results will be the same for them. There is some kind of great cultural myth in America regarding higher education and that plus the easy availability of student loans leads to a borderline unconscionable situation, IMO.

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kalvano
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby kalvano » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:57 pm

The ones to blame are the crappy schools and the idiots that attend them. These T3 and T4 schools are nothing but diploma factories.

I will not be going to a T14 and making billions the day I graduate, but still, I believe there are opportunities out there for those who go to reputable, decently-ranked schools.
Last edited by kalvano on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

awesomepossum
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby awesomepossum » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:57 pm

swheat wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:Well it's supply and demand.

There are enough fucking losers who are inspired by these "I have an uncle/friend/uncle's friend who went to a T3 and made a bajillion dollars" that they attend these garbage law schools. Why wouldn't they keep opening law schools? They're probably cash cows.

I have no sympathy for those people. They get what they paid for.


I have sympathy for them. They've been lied to all their lives that higher education = big bucks. They see past results (eg - uncle who went to TTTT and earns bajillion bucks) and assume that future results will be the same for them. There is some kind of great cultural myth in America regarding higher education and that plus the easy availability of student loans leads to a borderline unconscionable situation, IMO.



It's not like the information isn't out there. If people are stupid enough to fall for such an obvious con, that's their fault. It's like people who buy really really bad lottery tickets. Maybe there was a lure there, but if you're not an idiot, you can figure it out.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:00 pm

Why can't you make students sign something before they can graduate, saying, "I promise to faithfully report my income and employment data to this school nine months from the date of graduation". Make it binding. That way, you'd have everybody report.
Last edited by 84Sunbird2000 on Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dudester
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby dudester » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
dudester wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:<jumps up on soapbox>

For a school to have its students eligible for GradPLUS Loans, it should be required to report complete (at least 95+% response rate) and accurate salary data for the last five years' classes. If a school can't fulfill this very basic disclosure requirement while maintaining that it offers a very good investment, its students can go find private lenders willing to make money by financing this wonderful investment.

<jumps off>



Yes, because that is what will happen if law schools are required to disclose some very basic information.

Why law schools in particular, you ask? Outside of medical school and business school, no other programs have a high percentage of students borrowing in excess of $100k. Business schools actually present good salary data and I don't exactly blogs like "Big Debt Small Medicine" popping up.


Um, you do know that it's not mandatory for grads to fill out the employment questionnaire, right?


Yes. I am quite aware of this. If grads don't want to fill out a survey (at graduation only), they don't have to. Report them as a earning $0. If students want to tank their school's ranking and the degree's value over the long term, whatever.

Right now, with freely available GradPLUS loans and IBR, there's ZERO incentive for law schools to not keep jacking up tuition. Providing data to allow people to make a sound decisions on the value of a $200k education seems like a small price to pay for receiving federal bailout funds.


How would fulfilling a 95% response rate requirement by reporting $0 earnings for people who could very well be making $160,000 provide "accurate" data? How does some students' inability to do basic math and draw proper inferences from the data schools provide become the government's business?

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General Tso
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Re: EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker

Postby General Tso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:02 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
It's not like the information isn't out there. If people are stupid enough to fall for such an obvious con, that's their fault. It's like people who buy really really bad lottery tickets. Maybe there was a lure there, but if you're not an idiot, you can figure it out.


Most people are idiots though. Sad but true. And if somebody doesn't save them from their idiocy, student loan debt will become the next subprime lending crisis.

At some point the whole country has to return to some semblance of financial sanity.




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