Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:43 pm

hombredulce wrote:I always find it funny how people around here laugh at and trivialize any thread that even begins to bring up the horrible gamble that many law students are making.

Without even doing any type of research you can see how bleak the outlook is for students willing to take on these massive loads of debt for a shot at a job they probably wont like.

50% of the class at every school is gonna be in the "lower half." Even then, at most schools only the top 25-30% have realistic shots at making the kind of money, at least initially, which allows them to have somewhat manageable loan payments. Being conservative, 75% of the students at aba approved law schools may not have a way to pay the debts they incur...how is that funny or trivial?


Employment outcomes are the same across all ABA approved law schools. $120k is good bet for some people, a horrific one for others.

09042014
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:45 pm

I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?

Even a half scholly at my state school is 110K for three years.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:47 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?


I always assumed it was parents chipping in for at least a portion.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?

Even a half scholly at my state school is 110K for three years.


Some people clerk during 2L and 3L years? My firm has a few UCLA clerks and they get paid pretty damn well.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:51 pm

Ok, I'm going to a Tier 2, regionally well-known and respected school, planning to stay in Chicago for at least 5-10 years after graduation, if not permanently settle here, and I have some connections in the legal world already. I am getting money from schools, so my debt won't be too ridiculous. I am pretty darn sure that I will be in at least the top half of my class, if not higher, since I'd be willing to bet that since I'm getting pretty large sums of money, I'm one of the better applicants they reviewed. Some may call this delusional, but I know I'm a bad ass. I'm not scared of debt, like so many people here. I welcome it, since I know (in this case) it's worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the "woe is me" posters. How about this: Stop posting on TLS and go study/get a job/do whatever it will take to improve your circumstances instead of bitching about them? Maybe then people will like you more...

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:52 pm

Survival of the fittest imo

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:53 pm

<Grabs popcorn>

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:53 pm

kittenmittons wrote:Survival of the fittest imo


+1 million, if I'm not the fittest, I'll go die a slow and painful death, otherwise, get out of my face hahaha.

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby legalese_retard » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:56 pm

chicagolaw2013 wrote:Ok, I'm going to a Tier 2, regionally well-known and respected school, planning to stay in Chicago for at least 5-10 years after graduation, if not permanently settle here, and I have some connections in the legal world already. I am getting money from schools, so my debt won't be too ridiculous. I am pretty darn sure that I will be in at least the top half of my class, if not higher, since I'd be willing to bet that since I'm getting pretty large sums of money, I'm one of the better applicants they reviewed. Some may call this delusional, but I know I'm a bad ass. I'm not scared of debt, like so many people here. I welcome it, since I know (in this case) it's worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the "woe is me" posters. How about this: Stop posting on TLS and go study/get a job/do whatever it will take to improve your circumstances instead of bitching about them? Maybe then people will like you more...


Flame?

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:57 pm

legalese_retard wrote:
chicagolaw2013 wrote:Ok, I'm going to a Tier 2, regionally well-known and respected school, planning to stay in Chicago for at least 5-10 years after graduation, if not permanently settle here, and I have some connections in the legal world already. I am getting money from schools, so my debt won't be too ridiculous. I am pretty darn sure that I will be in at least the top half of my class, if not higher, since I'd be willing to bet that since I'm getting pretty large sums of money, I'm one of the better applicants they reviewed. Some may call this delusional, but I know I'm a bad ass. I'm not scared of debt, like so many people here. I welcome it, since I know (in this case) it's worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the "woe is me" posters. How about this: Stop posting on TLS and go study/get a job/do whatever it will take to improve your circumstances instead of bitching about them? Maybe then people will like you more...


Flame?


No not a flame...last time I checked, you were?

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby flcath » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:58 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
hombredulce wrote:I always find it funny how people around here laugh at and trivialize any thread that even begins to bring up the horrible gamble that many law students are making.

Without even doing any type of research you can see how bleak the outlook is for students willing to take on these massive loads of debt for a shot at a job they probably wont like.

50% of the class at every school is gonna be in the "lower half." Even then, at most schools only the top 25-30% have realistic shots at making the kind of money, at least initially, which allows them to have somewhat manageable loan payments. Being conservative, 75% of the students at aba approved law schools may not have a way to pay the debts they incur...how is that funny or trivial?


Employment outcomes [strike]are the same[/strike] vary staggeringly across all ABA approved law schools. $120k is good bet for some people, a horrific one for others.

I think this is what you meant, unless you were being felicitous.

I don't think $120K is a great bet unless it's HYSCCN, maybe T10. I would love to be convinced otherwise--like everyone, I get more excited about the more prestigious schools--but objective reasoning from available data seems to contradict this idea.

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:58 pm

legalese_retard wrote:
chicagolaw2013 wrote:Ok, I'm going to a Tier 2, regionally well-known and respected school, planning to stay in Chicago for at least 5-10 years after graduation, if not permanently settle here, and I have some connections in the legal world already. I am getting money from schools, so my debt won't be too ridiculous. I am pretty darn sure that I will be in at least the top half of my class, if not higher, since I'd be willing to bet that since I'm getting pretty large sums of money, I'm one of the better applicants they reviewed. Some may call this delusional, but I know I'm a bad ass. I'm not scared of debt, like so many people here. I welcome it, since I know (in this case) it's worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the "woe is me" posters. How about this: Stop posting on TLS and go study/get a job/do whatever it will take to improve your circumstances instead of bitching about them? Maybe then people will like you more...


Flame?


No, just one of our few racist posters, I think (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=95812&p=2204028#p2204028)

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby USAIRS » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:00 pm

I read above the law pretty regularly and, if memory serves, the author also went to Harvard College, so the debt total isn't actually that bad considering that 150k was full loans for law school. I ended up with almost the same amount, UG/JD/LLM, and it is pretty manageable so long as you aren't unemployed. He is also a pretty good example of someone who went outside the box, took some risks, and is pretty successful at what he does. I actually really admire that. In my mind, it is the people who do something other than work in big law firms or clerk that end up doing really amazing things. The whole bad credit thing is pretty common for someone who tries to start up a new enterprise. The first couple years you are basically living on credit until things turn around.

There was this article a while back something along the lines of "what ever happened to the great harvard lawyer?" which seemed to imply that people were dropping out of the legal profession because law practice isn't what it used to be in "mad men" days. There was a chicano guy in NY who taught high school and is now doing solo work and in local politics, this Puerto Rican comedian I really liked, and someone who started up some sort of periodical, all meant to be examples of why legal work is bad, or something to that effect. That wasn't what I got out of it at all. These were the kinds of people that bring Harvard all of its prestige. People who have something unique to offer and can leverage that Harvard education into more than the sum of its parts. If 100% of people who graduated from Harvard went into clerkships and then to the partner track in top firms, we wouldn't have Obama.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:00 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:
chicagolaw2013 wrote:Ok, I'm going to a Tier 2, regionally well-known and respected school, planning to stay in Chicago for at least 5-10 years after graduation, if not permanently settle here, and I have some connections in the legal world already. I am getting money from schools, so my debt won't be too ridiculous. I am pretty darn sure that I will be in at least the top half of my class, if not higher, since I'd be willing to bet that since I'm getting pretty large sums of money, I'm one of the better applicants they reviewed. Some may call this delusional, but I know I'm a bad ass. I'm not scared of debt, like so many people here. I welcome it, since I know (in this case) it's worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of all the "woe is me" posters. How about this: Stop posting on TLS and go study/get a job/do whatever it will take to improve your circumstances instead of bitching about them? Maybe then people will like you more...


Flame?


No, just one of our few racist posters, I think (viewtopic.php?f=10&t=95812&p=2204028#p2204028)


What's funny is that you didn't even look at the context of the thread, nor did you notice that I wasn't the OP. Great lawyer you'll make...

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:00 pm

flcath wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
hombredulce wrote:I always find it funny how people around here laugh at and trivialize any thread that even begins to bring up the horrible gamble that many law students are making.

Without even doing any type of research you can see how bleak the outlook is for students willing to take on these massive loads of debt for a shot at a job they probably wont like.

50% of the class at every school is gonna be in the "lower half." Even then, at most schools only the top 25-30% have realistic shots at making the kind of money, at least initially, which allows them to have somewhat manageable loan payments. Being conservative, 75% of the students at aba approved law schools may not have a way to pay the debts they incur...how is that funny or trivial?


Employment outcomes [strike]are the same[/strike] vary staggeringly across all ABA approved law schools. $120k is good bet for some people, a horrific one for others.

I think this is what you meant, unless you were being felicitous.

I don't think $120K is a great bet unless it's HYSCCN, maybe T10. I would love to be convinced otherwise--like everyone, I get more excited about the more prestigious schools--but objective reasoning from available data seems to contradict this idea.


Yes, that was sarcasm. As my second sentence would indicate.

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby flcath » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:06 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?


I always assumed it was parents chipping in for at least a portion.

You might underestimate merit aid if you're at a T14. Scholarships are very common in the T25 (as they should be) and over 70% get at least some $$$; I can produce data, but it's all in different places so I can't necessarily provide one link. I will tell you, in my financial planning, I am not anticipating anywhere near $120K in debt.

Space_Cowboy wrote:Yes, that was sarcasm. As my second sentence would indicate.
My bad.

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:07 pm

I like your Croakies bro

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby PoliticalJunkie » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:08 pm

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby jason8821 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?

Even a half scholly at my state school is 110K for three years.


It's doubtful that they are. The replies on this board stating that "60-65k of student loan debt is killer" are highly subjective, and the result of a skewed perception that is constantly propagated at TLS.

If the OP did not get laid off, I have absolutely no sympathy. What the fuck is wrong with living off of 55-60k a year and taking the other half (probably liek 110 after taxes) of your big law salary and paying off your debt in three years, being completely clean and then working. You can still get a nice car, and live in a nice place with some money to go out. If you are single you could sdo this anywhere in the country. Then you could quit your big law job, and find something you are passionate about.

Many people will go their entire lives without being able to pursue their passion, without being binded by debt, health, family etc. If you are one of them, than you truly have experienced the zenith of living.

Ohhh and to the above, I read an article stating that many of the reports on loans cannot accurately estimate all private loans, so they usually understate ones actual debt. I don't know why this but the real average could be substantially higher, in my anecdotal experience (discussing law debt with students) 120 is more like the average and not the upper third.

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chicagolaw2013
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby chicagolaw2013 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:12 pm

PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.


Agreed...soooo pathetic, and this is supposed to be a law school board. Shouldn't we, as intelligent individuals (maybe that's assuming too much, but work with me), be past blaming everyone else/the world/God/whoever for our shortcomings?

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kittenmittons
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby kittenmittons » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:15 pm

chicagolaw2013 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.


Agreed...soooo pathetic, and this is supposed to be a law school board. Shouldn't we, as intelligent individuals (maybe that's assuming too much, but work with me), be past blaming everyone else/the world/God/whoever for our shortcomings?


No

araiza99
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby araiza99 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:15 pm

PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.


An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby flcath » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:18 pm

kittenmittons wrote:I like your Croakies bro

Why thank you. Apparently my attire in this photo was sufficient for one TLSer to identify my locale of origin with startling precision (gave exact section of state).

PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

Comparing med school debt to law school debt is as inappropriate as [doing as one TLSer did, to comfort herself at the amount of debt she was taking on] comparing law school debt to a mortgage.

The medical "system" is set up under the assumption that *everyone* graduates with ridiculous debt and then *everyone* spends 3-6 years in residency. It compensates by then providing *everyone* with a six-figure salary.

If LS were similar--i.e., if *everyone* got Biglaw--there'd be no bitching here at all.

09042014
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:20 pm

araiza99 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.


An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)


Agreed. 250K with a 98% probability of earning 150K+ >> 200K with a 40/60% shot at making 160/60K. And that probabilty is T14. Below that is even more risk. Below t1 is just insane.

Especially since the top 40% of good med school classes make a lot more than 150K.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:21 pm

araiza99 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.


An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)


These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.




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