Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

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postitnotes
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby postitnotes » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:49 pm

crazycanuck wrote:Education in the U.S is a such a scam.


We should adopt the German or English systems. The Germans have "trade schools" which teach useful skills that can be applied to a real job. The English make you choose your focus before university while you are doing your A-levels in college and you go far more in depth in your field during university. I think the US liberal arts education system just "glosses" over a ton of subjects, not really giving you any useful skills nor knowledge of any particular subject, forcing people to learn pretty much everything on the job. The only major exceptions that reflect more focused applicable study are engineering and certain business majors.

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crazycanuck
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby crazycanuck » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:55 pm

postitnotes wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Education in the U.S is a such a scam.


We should adopt the German or English systems. The Germans have "trade schools" which teach useful skills that can be applied to a real job. The English make you choose your focus before university while you are doing your A-levels in college and you go far more in depth in your field during university. I think the US liberal arts education system just "glosses" over a ton of subjects, not really giving you any useful skills nor knowledge of any particular subject, forcing people to learn pretty much everything on the job. The only major exceptions that reflect more focused applicable study are engineering and certain business majors.


Exactly, you spend 40k/year for absolutely nothing.

angioletto
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby angioletto » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:18 pm

postitnotes wrote:
WrappedUpInBooks wrote:I make $35,000 right now, before taxes. I live in New York City. I have plenty of money. I don't really understand why people think that it is so impossible to live on 50k. Granted, 50k with loans is probably similar to my 35k without, but it is in no way some impossible feat.


How many roommates do you have? What kind of living arrangement do you have? Do you live with family? What luxuries are you able to afford? Don't you ever want to buy your own home instead of throwing money away towards rent? By the time most people graduate they will be in their mid/late 20s, and they need to start saving up for a down payment at that time too. I'd like to be able to afford a place of my own before I'm middle-aged.


My husband and I have been living on $40k combined for a couple years now and we have two kids and own a home. It is doable. And it is certainly doable for an extra couple of years if that is what it will take for me to complete law school and pay off some or all of my debt from it. Sure, our house is very small and we don't have a lot of luxuries right now, but that's what we get for having kids before finishing school.

I'll be 31 when I graduate law school. I am prefectly content knowing that the luxuries that will come with a higher salary may not be within reach until I am in my mid 30's. I have accepted the fact that I will have to take on and then pay off debt to go to law school. There certainly isn't anyone out there who is going to pay it for me, but that doesn't mean I am going to sit back on my ass and say "oh well, why bother?"

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Dick Whitman » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:19 pm

postitnotes wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Education in the U.S is a such a scam.


We should adopt the German or English systems. The Germans have "trade schools" which teach useful skills that can be applied to a real job. The English make you choose your focus before university while you are doing your A-levels in college and you go far more in depth in your field during university. I think the US liberal arts education system just "glosses" over a ton of subjects, not really giving you any useful skills nor knowledge of any particular subject, forcing people to learn pretty much everything on the job. The only major exceptions that reflect more focused applicable study are engineering and certain business majors.


There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

You will likely need to relearn skills several times over the course of your working career. There's nothing wrong with teaching someone a trade, but it's of somewhat limited value.

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84Sunbird2000
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby 84Sunbird2000 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:35 pm

Dick Whitman wrote:
postitnotes wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:Education in the U.S is a such a scam.


We should adopt the German or English systems. The Germans have "trade schools" which teach useful skills that can be applied to a real job. The English make you choose your focus before university while you are doing your A-levels in college and you go far more in depth in your field during university. I think the US liberal arts education system just "glosses" over a ton of subjects, not really giving you any useful skills nor knowledge of any particular subject, forcing people to learn pretty much everything on the job. The only major exceptions that reflect more focused applicable study are engineering and certain business majors.


There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

You will likely need to relearn skills several times over the course of your working career. There's nothing wrong with teaching someone a trade, but it's of somewhat limited value.


I agree that making someone pick their career that early is very bad. Inter-disciplinary education can breed a great deal more creativity and unique thought than a tunnel-vision education. We do have many of the best universities due to the size of our country, but not the best system. The level of debt that a lower-middle class or middle class student has to go into to even get a bachelor's is simply unconscionable. We need to subsidize our education much, much better than we do.

ughOSU
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby ughOSU » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:36 pm

Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.

ps494
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:38 pm

ughOSU wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.


I don't think the poster was suggesting that. However, I think you love it when you get the chance to make a comment that the U.S. actually sucks.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:42 pm

ps494 wrote:
ughOSU wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.


I don't think the poster was suggesting that. However, I think you love it when you get the chance to make a comment that the U.S. actually sucks.


Looks like someone offended a Glenn Beck fan. Being critical of the cost of US education isn't the same as saying the US sucks.

ughOSU
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby ughOSU » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:47 pm

ps494 wrote:I don't think the poster was suggesting that. However, I think you love it when you get the chance to make a comment that the U.S. actually sucks.

hahahaha. I know I shouldn't dignify this with a response, but I love my country. What I despise is the attitude that some people have in this country that just because we're better than Country X, Y, and Z at something means we can't improve it. It's a completely un-progressive and un-American attitude to have, and these people's inability to consider the fact that another system could be better pisses me off and is hurting this country. Blind faith in our institutions won't improve them, only harsh criticisms of how to make them better will.

Fuck you, you fucking terrorist.

ps494
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:48 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
ps494 wrote:
ughOSU wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.


I don't think the poster was suggesting that. However, I think you love it when you get the chance to make a comment that the U.S. actually sucks.


Looks like someone offended a Glenn Beck fan. Being critical of the cost of US education isn't the same as saying the US sucks.



Actually I do not like Glen Beck one bit. I think he's annoying and unintelligent. But ya, you're right. I might as well call you Michael Moore for your sophomoric comment.

No, being critical of the cost of U.S. education is not the same as saying the U.S. sucks, but it also seems like there is a certain group of people in the U.S. that love to it down at any chance they get, and at the same time build up Western Europe.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:32 pm

ps494 wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:Looks like someone offended a Glenn Beck fan. Being critical of the cost of US education isn't the same as saying the US sucks.



Actually I do not like Glen Beck one bit. I think he's annoying and unintelligent. But ya, you're right. I might as well call you Michael Moore for your sophomoric comment.


Oh noes! I got zinged!!!!! :cry:

ps494 wrote:No, being critical of the cost of U.S. education is not the same as saying the U.S. sucks, but it also seems like there is a certain group of people in the U.S. that love to it down at any chance they get, and at the same time build up Western Europe.


Yet, that is what you said....

ps494 wrote:I don't think the poster was suggesting that. However, I think you love it when you get the chance to make a comment that the U.S. actually sucks.


Yes, through the internets you sensed ughOSU's America-hating core.

flcath
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby flcath » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:48 pm

This thread's kinda disappointing.

Did someone here really pay $150K for undergrad? 'Cause I'm skeptical.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:59 pm

ughOSU wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.

undergraduate here doesn't cost that much either unless you want it to.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:09 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
ughOSU wrote:
Dick Whitman wrote:There are a lot of things wrong here, but none more than making someone pick a focus that early. The US has the best university system in the world; we should count ourselves lucky (secondary schools are another story).

easy there, Glenn Beck. The US doesn't have the best of everything in the world just because we're the US. I think that in most european/australian/new zealand systems you do "college" for a couple years, then pick a concentration in "university" for a few years after that. I was forced to pick a major too early, picked the wrong one, then switched to a worse one. I think a different arrangement would have been better. Also, undergraduate education in those countrys doesn't cost 150k.

undergraduate here doesn't cost that much either unless you want it to.


i have to say that while i believe America's public school system K-12 is an utter failure, our college/university system is really damned good (even from an international perspective)

of course i really only have a limited knowledge of china's college system and great britain's...so not a lot of comparisons

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NayBoer
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby NayBoer » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:28 pm

Our K-12 can't be all that bad if the products of the system are succeeding in a university system that's so excellent.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:31 pm

NayBoer wrote:Our K-12 can't be all that bad if the products of the system are succeeding in a university system that's so excellent.


We import a lot of talent at the advanced levels (post-baccalaureate). We're the New York Yankees of the World Higher Education Series.

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NayBoer
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby NayBoer » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:36 pm

Space_Cowboy wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Our K-12 can't be all that bad if the products of the system are succeeding in a university system that's so excellent.


We import a lot of talent at the advanced levels (post-baccalaureate). We're the New York Yankees of the World Higher Education Series.
Good evidence that our universities and colleges are elite (or that lots of foreigners want to live in the US). Foreigners come here to get degrees. Americans only go abroad for a semester to drink foreign beer, then they come back to do actual work.

But if the majority of the college system is high quality and is peopled with US K-12 graduates, then the K-12 system can't be all that bad.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb

Postby Space_Cowboy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:42 pm

NayBoer wrote:
Space_Cowboy wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Our K-12 can't be all that bad if the products of the system are succeeding in a university system that's so excellent.


We import a lot of talent at the advanced levels (post-baccalaureate). We're the New York Yankees of the World Higher Education Series.
Good evidence that our universities and colleges are elite (or that lots of foreigners want to live in the US). Foreigners come here to get degrees. Americans only go abroad for a semester to drink foreign beer, then they come back to do actual work.

But if the majority of the college system is high quality and is peopled with US K-12 graduates, then the K-12 system can't be all that bad.


I didn't really have a point before, just musing. However, a lot of people in the K-12 system don't go on to college. Additionally, "high quality," when referring to our higher education system, is an ambiguous term. Are there particular aspects of our higher education system that perform well? If so? What are they? To be clear, I don't know that our K-12 system is all that bad, but I went to a good school. But, more often than not, when people talk about our amazing higher education system, they are talking about research output - science, medicine, engineering, etc..., and I'm quite sure we get at least half the graduate-level talent in these fields from foreign countries.




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