UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

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APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:53 pm

Kakarot wrote:
booboo wrote:
showNprove wrote:I didn't read this whole thread, but having some inside knowledge, I'd thought I'd share.

Applications are up at UVA, and this is not an attempt to get more (after all, how many people would pay to apply ED when they wouldn't have paid to apply RD? very few in very limited circumstances).

The real reason is this: Virginia loves applicants who express a strong desire to attend Virginia, and they often get requests from applicants after the ED deadline to permit them to bind themselves ED. Although it's called "early decision," there is no apparent reason to prevent applicants from binding themselves to your school if they wish, simply because you're later in the admissions cycle. Because applicants have expressed a desire to do so, and because Virginia has nothing to lose and only something to gain, why would they not?


I hope more admissions office take this view.


WHAT? This is where this ED crap becomes problematic. Imagine all of the t4-14 doing this and then only wanting to let students in who ED “It appears UVA is already doing this by just ignoring non-ed applications currently.” So what would probably happen if all schools do it? Students who suspect they won’t get into HYS would ED to the school ranked 4 if rejected or deferred then apply ED to 5 then 6 then 7 then 8… until they finally get into their “top” choice. This is horrible and stupid, because it would make students who didn’t want to ED anywhere have to wait forever..

This is crappier then waitlists. They help the school at the expense of the students.



it would also make it 10x harder for people that can't ed anyway for financial aid reasons to actually be accepted at a top school.

if more schools begin to eliminate their ed deadlines, i'd imagine they'd coordinate a system whereby people can only apply early to a limited number of schools

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Unitas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:57 pm

talibkweli wrote:
Kakarot wrote:
booboo wrote:
showNprove wrote:I didn't read this whole thread, but having some inside knowledge, I'd thought I'd share.

Applications are up at UVA, and this is not an attempt to get more (after all, how many people would pay to apply ED when they wouldn't have paid to apply RD? very few in very limited circumstances).

The real reason is this: Virginia loves applicants who express a strong desire to attend Virginia, and they often get requests from applicants after the ED deadline to permit them to bind themselves ED. Although it's called "early decision," there is no apparent reason to prevent applicants from binding themselves to your school if they wish, simply because you're later in the admissions cycle. Because applicants have expressed a desire to do so, and because Virginia has nothing to lose and only something to gain, why would they not?


I hope more admissions office take this view.


WHAT? This is where this ED crap becomes problematic. Imagine all of the t4-14 doing this and then only wanting to let students in who ED “It appears UVA is already doing this by just ignoring non-ed applications currently.” So what would probably happen if all schools do it? Students who suspect they won’t get into HYS would ED to the school ranked 4 if rejected or deferred then apply ED to 5 then 6 then 7 then 8… until they finally get into their “top” choice. This is horrible and stupid, because it would make students who didn’t want to ED anywhere have to wait forever..

This is crappier then waitlists. They help the school at the expense of the students.



it would also make it 10x harder for people that can't ed anyway for financial aid reasons to actually be accepted at a top school.

if more schools begin to eliminate their ed deadlines, i'd imagine they'd coordinate a system whereby people can only apply early to a limited number of schools


I sorta agree with your first part, but if all the schools do this I imagine they could fill there classes with ED applicants then would just divide the money between them.

Why would the schools do this? It wouldn't help them and would serve no practical purpose from their standpoint. The scenario I laid out sucks for students, but is great for schools.
Last edited by Unitas on Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Big Dog
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Big Dog » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:58 pm

Students who suspect they won’t get into HYS would ED to the school ranked 4 if rejected or deferred then apply ED to 5 then 6 then 7 then 8…


I'm guessing it's more about attracting applications from those strong kids who might have ED'ed to Columbia (or Chicago or NYU) and were rejected outright. A little dose of application reality (and fear) just might toss an ED app to UVa.

And if you expect it to greatly help UVA that is incorrect in the long run, because all the other schools will do it if it works slightly well for UVA.


Perhaps, but not likely. Columbia & NYU already have a attractive hook (NYC: 'location, location, location'). And they realize that they will never win the cross-admit battle with H & Y anyway, so an extended ED cycle won't improve their standing.
Last edited by Big Dog on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unitas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:00 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Students who suspect they won’t get into HYS would ED to the school ranked 4 if rejected or deferred then apply ED to 5 then 6 then 7 then 8…


I'm guessing it's more about attracting applications from those strong kids who might have ED'ed to Columbia (or Chicago or NYU) and were rejected outright. A little dose of application reality (and fear) just might toss an ED app to UVa.


Uh that was my point.... But if all the schools offered it students who were rejected from Columbia would just ED to NYU if rejected from there would just keep going down the list.

AS of right now only UVA and GULC is doing it, so they go from Columbia to UVA. If it helps UVA and GULC you can see that other schools would do it just to maintain their ratings causing a horrible cycle.

GULC isn't sitting on regular applicantions though while UVA appears to be.
Last edited by Unitas on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:02 pm

Kakarot wrote:Why would the schools do this? It wouldn't help them and would serve no practical purpose from their standpoint. The scenario I laid out sucks for students, but is great for schools.



well, i figure enough people would complain about how kids are getting screwed by schools trying to manipulate their usnews ranking that such an outcome wouldn't be sustainable. the only other alternative i could foresee is schools giving more scholarship money to ed applicants.
Last edited by APimpNamedSlickback on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bluejayk
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby bluejayk » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm

Wow, didn't realize until just now that GULC also has no ED deadline, when did that happen and why aren't people freaking out about it in a similar manner?

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Unitas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:03 pm

bluejayk wrote:Wow, didn't realize until just now that GULC also has no ED deadline, when did that happen and why aren't people freaking out about it in a similar manner?


Cause UVA appears to be sitting on old applications, GULC is not.
Last edited by Unitas on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:04 pm

n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

postitnotes
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby postitnotes » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:04 pm

bluejayk wrote:Wow, didn't realize until just now that GULC also has no ED deadline, when did that happen and why aren't people freaking out about it in a similar manner?


GULC released their new ED deadline first. I think it's partly because TLS has more dedicated UVA trolls than rational people.

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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Big Dog » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:06 pm

But if all the schools offered it students who were rejected from Columbia would just ED to NYU if rejected from there would just keep going down the list.


That would be stupid on the applicant's part. A flat out ED rejection by #4 generally means a material weakness in the app (otherwise it would have been deferred to RD if it was competitive), and it would be silly to then ED to #5. Better to drop a notch and ED to #10-14.

The only applicants who might try that would be the New York city folks -- NYU or Columbia or bust.

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:08 pm

Kakarot wrote:
booboo wrote:
showNprove wrote:I didn't read this whole thread, but having some inside knowledge, I'd thought I'd share.

Applications are up at UVA, and this is not an attempt to get more (after all, how many people would pay to apply ED when they wouldn't have paid to apply RD? very few in very limited circumstances).

The real reason is this: Virginia loves applicants who express a strong desire to attend Virginia, and they often get requests from applicants after the ED deadline to permit them to bind themselves ED. Although it's called "early decision," there is no apparent reason to prevent applicants from binding themselves to your school if they wish, simply because you're later in the admissions cycle. Because applicants have expressed a desire to do so, and because Virginia has nothing to lose and only something to gain, why would they not?


I hope more admissions office take this view.


WHAT? This is where this ED crap becomes problematic. Imagine all of the t4-14 doing this and then only wanting to let students in who ED “It appears UVA is already doing this by just ignoring non-ed applications currently.” So what would probably happen if all schools do it? Students who suspect they won’t get into HYS would ED to the school ranked 4 if rejected or deferred then apply ED to 5 then 6 then 7 then 8… until they finally get into their “top” choice. This is horrible and stupid, because it would make students who didn’t want to ED anywhere have to wait forever. To avoid this students who wouldn't ED would then ED to avoid the stress. Setting up a vicious cycle.

This is crappier then waitlists. This ED setup helps the school at the expense of the students. And if you expect it to greatly help UVA that is incorrect in the long run, because all the other schools will do it if it works slightly well for UVA.

EDIT: put in more of why this is horrible.


Um.... This is a one trick pony. If a school has an ED deadline that it is well past the ED deadline of every other competitor, and it also well in the RD cycle at these competitors, people have EVERY reason to not ED to UVA until they hear back from competing schools about admission and money. Yes, you still get the people who would prefer UVA to HYS, but you lose all the people who ED there because its their one shot at a T14 (a non-negligible number of matriculants). This will work this cycle. But that's it.

showNprove
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby showNprove » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:09 pm

Kakarot wrote:This is crappier then waitlists. This ED setup helps the school at the expense of the students. And if you expect it to greatly help UVA that is incorrect in the long run, because all the other schools will do it if it works slightly well for UVA.

LOL. Schools offer ED as a tool to allow students to boost their chances. For every student that is hurt by this extension, another one is helped. Just because you have a 176/3.9 doesn't mean you deserve anything or the law schools owe you anything. It doesn't mean you'll be a better law student or a more successful lawyer.

If a school and an applicant want to make a mutually-beneficial contract for that applicant to matriculate, they should be permitted to do so. The fact that a third-party may have missed an opportunity is irrelevant. The law school application process is not about placing self-entitled people with the highest numbers into the best schools: it's about law school building the strongest, most desirable class they can. If a school would rather have a sure 171/3.3 than a possible 173/3.85, then it's making the most efficient choice for itself.

I feel like a lot of prospective students expect law schools to be applying to them instead of vice versa, simply because of their numbers.

Regardless, RD applications still dominate ED applications, and they will probably do so for the foreseeable future. And even if this allows applicants to "game the system" by applying to school A ED, waiting for a decision, and then moving on and doing the same thing until they get in somewhere, then I say good for them. It's about time that applicants could game the system as well. The way I see it, this gives more power to applicants, not less.

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Unitas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:12 pm

Big Dog wrote:
But if all the schools offered it students who were rejected from Columbia would just ED to NYU if rejected from there would just keep going down the list.


That would be stupid on the applicant's part. A flat out ED rejection by #4 generally means a material weakness in the app (otherwise it would have been deferred to RD if it was competitive), and it would be silly to then ED to #5. Better to drop a notch and ED to #10-14.

The only applicants who might try that would be the New York city folks -- NYU or Columbia or bust.


Applicants are stressed / stupid.
Sorry, I meant to include rejections and deferrals from Columbia would then ED to NYU. And again that still works, it would make it so students HAVE to ED to get into schools from 4-14.. Because if schools got enough decent ED's to fill a class they could pick there numbers exactly. And have a really high yield. Great for schools. Horrible for students.

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Unitas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Unitas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:14 pm

showNprove wrote:
Kakarot wrote:This is crappier then waitlists. This ED setup helps the school at the expense of the students. And if you expect it to greatly help UVA that is incorrect in the long run, because all the other schools will do it if it works slightly well for UVA.

LOL. Schools offer ED as a tool to allow students to boost their chances. For every student that is hurt by this extension, another one is helped. Just because you have a 176/3.9 doesn't mean you deserve anything or the law schools owe you anything. It doesn't mean you'll be a better law student or a more successful lawyer.

If a school and an applicant want to make a mutually-beneficial contract for that applicant to matriculate, they should be permitted to do so. The fact that a third-party may have missed an opportunity is irrelevant. The law school application process is not about placing self-entitled people with the highest numbers into the best schools: it's about law school building the strongest, most desirable class they can. If a school would rather have a sure 171/3.3 than a possible 173/3.85, then it's making the most efficient choice for itself.

I feel like a lot of prospective students expect law schools to be applying to them instead of vice versa, simply because of their numbers.

Regardless, RD applications still dominate ED applications, and they will probably do so for the foreseeable future. And even if this allows applicants to "game the system" by applying to school A ED, waiting for a decision, and then moving on and doing the same thing until they get in somewhere, then I say good for them. It's about time that applicants could game the system as well. The way I see it, this gives more power to applicants, not less.


And if all schools go to this setup I doubt it will give a boost, it would become the normal.

It gives less power. You can't weigh offers with ED, you can't play scholarships from one against the other. You lose your choice.

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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:16 pm

showNprove wrote:
Kakarot wrote:This is crappier then waitlists. This ED setup helps the school at the expense of the students. And if you expect it to greatly help UVA that is incorrect in the long run, because all the other schools will do it if it works slightly well for UVA.

LOL. Schools offer ED as a tool to allow students to boost their chances. For every student that is hurt by this extension, another one is helped. Just because you have a 176/3.9 doesn't mean you deserve anything or the law schools owe you anything. It doesn't mean you'll be a better law student or a more successful lawyer.

If a school and an applicant want to make a mutually-beneficial contract for that applicant to matriculate, they should be permitted to do so. The fact that a third-party may have missed an opportunity is irrelevant. The law school application process is not about placing self-entitled people with the highest numbers into the best schools: it's about law school building the strongest, most desirable class they can. If a school would rather have a sure 171/3.3 than a possible 173/3.85, then it's making the most efficient choice for itself.

I feel like a lot of prospective students expect law schools to be applying to them instead of vice versa, simply because of their numbers.

Regardless, RD applications still dominate ED applications, and they will probably do so for the foreseeable future. And even if this allows applicants to "game the system" by applying to school A ED, waiting for a decision, and then moving on and doing the same thing until they get in somewhere, then I say good for them. It's about time that applicants could game the system as well. The way I see it, this gives more power to applicants, not less.


actually, this set up would kill the most competitive applicants' bargaining power for the very reasons you just elaborated upon. however, it will help marginal candidates willing to pay full sticker and are just trying to squeeze into the t14.

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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby showNprove » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:32 pm

talibkweli wrote:actually, this set up would kill the most competitive applicants' bargaining power for the very reasons you just elaborated upon. however, it will help marginal candidates willing to pay full sticker and are just trying to squeeze into the t14.

So schools are just going to let all of the "competitive" applicants just fall to Vanderbilt and UCLA, and not try to encourage them to come?

Even if this became the norm at all T14's, and even if the majority of applicants decided to apply ED, schools would still try to find ways to get the competitive advantage over their peers. This includes offering scholarships to "competitive" ED candidates, regardless of their pre-commitment. If NYU could entice students away from Columbia by making it known they offer large scholarships to "competitive" students who ED, wouldn't this encourage more "competitive" ED applicants to NYU? And wouldn't this force Columbia to make the same scholarship offers?

Hell, if this became the norm, schools may start offering scholarships before the student applies to encourage them to apply ED. "Based off your numbers, if you apply ED and are accepted, we'll offer you $X/year."

The top students are not going to be shut out of the top schools because of this, even if it becomes the norm. Schools benefit from being more sure about what their class will look like, but they will have to come up with new creative ways to attract the top talent. This eliminates the questions about matriculation rates, but it doesn't eliminate the competition between the schools. As long as that exists, students will still have bargaining power.

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Borhas
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Borhas » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:32 pm

showNprove wrote:
Kakarot wrote: It doesn't mean you'll be a better law student or a more successful lawyer.
.

every law school in the country disagrees with you, but yeah its true

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:51 pm

University of Virginia School of Law wrote:USNWR told me go 'head switch the style up
And if they hate then let 'em hate
And watch the rankings pile up

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YCrevolution
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby YCrevolution » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:55 pm

..

02082010
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 02082010 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:56 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
University of Virginia School of Law wrote:USNWR told me go 'head switch the style up
And if they hate then let 'em hate
And watch the rankings pile up


What up Kanye! What up 50!

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:57 pm

showNprove wrote:
talibkweli wrote:actually, this set up would kill the most competitive applicants' bargaining power for the very reasons you just elaborated upon. however, it will help marginal candidates willing to pay full sticker and are just trying to squeeze into the t14.

So schools are just going to let all of the "competitive" applicants just fall to Vanderbilt and UCLA, and not try to encourage them to come?

Even if this became the norm at all T14's, and even if the majority of applicants decided to apply ED, schools would still try to find ways to get the competitive advantage over their peers. This includes offering scholarships to "competitive" ED candidates, regardless of their pre-commitment. If NYU could entice students away from Columbia by making it known they offer large scholarships to "competitive" students who ED, wouldn't this encourage more "competitive" ED applicants to NYU? And wouldn't this force Columbia to make the same scholarship offers?

Hell, if this became the norm, schools may start offering scholarships before the student applies to encourage them to apply ED. "Based off your numbers, if you apply ED and are accepted, we'll offer you $X/year."

The top students are not going to be shut out of the top schools because of this, even if it becomes the norm. Schools benefit from being more sure about what their class will look like, but they will have to come up with new creative ways to attract the top talent. This eliminates the questions about matriculation rates, but it doesn't eliminate the competition between the schools. As long as that exists, students will still have bargaining power.


I think people ar underestimating how much this might have driven the consideration to extend the ED window. Applications are up close to 10% nationally, but the number of active applicants is only up a percent (per Dean Pless from the LSAC data they get). Now, you can guess how this situation screws up schools' ability to enroll a class. This is probably the one year where the added predictability of ED comes in extra handy.

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Doritos
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Doritos » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:01 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
NayBoer wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:What are we calling splitters?? would a 175, 3.55 be considered a splitter?? I mean, its below gpa 25th at most schools and above LSAT 75th.. that is what we mean by splitter, right?
That's not a splitter. That's just called "in everywhere but HYS."

Unless URM, in which case it's called "in everywhere."


Lol, I think TLS severely overstates the URM boost.. Im slightly above those numbers and know that I am no lock at HYS



This is an old post but I think you are absolutely a lock. I have a 3.2 and 162 and got into UVA the day they received my ED form. If a URM applies early with numbers like yours I would be shocked if you did not get into all 3. Please go here...http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prel ... 160.0.html I am assuming you are a black male since your avatar has one of those in it. How many AA males have numbers better than yours? I would bet 0 to 1 in the nation. a 3.55 and 175?? yeah...

02082010
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 02082010 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:04 pm

Doritos wrote:I am assuming you are a black male since your avatar has one of those in it.


:shock:

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Space_Cowboy
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Space_Cowboy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:06 pm

hopefulundergrad wrote:
Doritos wrote:I am assuming you are a black male since your avatar has one of those in it.


:shock:


LOL

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Kohinoor
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:27 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
jawsthegreat wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
NayBoer wrote:That's not a splitter. That's just called "in everywhere but HYS."

Unless URM, in which case it's called "in everywhere."


Lol, I think TLS severely overstates the URM boost..


Lol no, YOU ARE WRONG about the URM boost.

I hope so.. I will likely be the test case for a little above those stats next cycle..

Those are solid stats. See you at UVA!




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