UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

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ogman05
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby ogman05 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:23 pm

Encyclopedia Brown wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Last summer several 175s with GPAs from low 3s downward were WL at NU until June. Just FYI.

Good information for sure, but are you thinking I should go ahead and ED at UVA (since I'll likely be waitlisted at NU) or that I should hang on since those ~3.0 splitters came OFF the waitlist?


Well UVA is the better school. :mrgreen:

hopefulincal
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby hopefulincal » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:30 pm

I'm continuing this discussion only because I think it's an interesting business case. Obviously depending on the sample you present, you could argue one way or the other. I'd like to think about how this process actually happens:

September comes around, and applications start rolling in. For the sake of the argument let's drop the whole holistic view thing. The school starts getting apps, and decisions need to be made. Every school knows their previous medians and would like to increase those numbers. Thus, you pretty much auto-admit those with both numbers higher than your medians (sure you worry about yield, but let's put that aside for the moment). You also pretty much admit those with one number higher and the other number at median. Yes you can throw money at any of the above students to get them to enroll, but so are the other schools with similar medians. So, pretty soon you have an admitted pool, and you would know what your current medians are from the pool. You now monitor the medians for this pool closely. As you decide whether or not to admit each incoming application, you know how that applicant is going to affect your pool medians, and you weigh the gains and losses for each admit.

Meanwhile, your similarly ranked competitors are doing the same thing (which is why you have similar medians in the past). Now along comes an applicant that every school considers a splitter. Do you admit him/her? You look at how this applicant affects your medians. Most likely if admitting this applicant will help your numbers, it will likely help your competitors' numbers as well, so both of you will end up admitting him/her.

Yes, in the perfect world if you had all the applications laid out in front of you, you could figure out how to maximize your medians from the entire pool, but it doesn't work that way. Especially given the faster turnaround times for ED, you can't just sit and wait to see what your pool would look like. So you couldn't possibly go into the season with a splitter strategy because with every new admit you're risking your other number. If the distribution for both numbers are in fact very different and admitting one pool of splitters would easily raise the medians, you don't think your competitors would have figured that out also?

These rankings mean life and death to the Admissions Office, and if there is a low hanging fruit like admitting splitters, many schools would have done it already.

09042014
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:35 pm

Encyclopedia Brown wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Last summer several 175s with GPAs from low 3s downward were WL at NU until June. Just FYI.

Good information for sure, but are you thinking I should go ahead and ED at UVA (since I'll likely be waitlisted at NU) or that I should hang on since those ~3.0 splitters came OFF the waitlist?



EDing to UVA is probably your only shot at getting into UVA for you. I'd do it if I were you, and I'd go to NU over UVA. Extreme splitter cycles are really fucking risky. You've got to increase your chances of getting into a T14 any way possible.

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rayiner
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby rayiner » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:36 pm

kurama20 wrote:
NayBoer wrote:"The reputation ratings are all that matter! My school is undervalued by USNWR including unfair considerations!" - UVA admit

"The reputation ratings don't matter at all! My school is undervalued by USNWR including unfair considerations!" - NU admit


Personally, I think the reputation scores are awfully subjective and very regional. If we're going to pick something with real-world impact, I'd rather it be more directly connected to acquiring a job. I don't have a suggestion for how to do that and something like the NLJ250 seems inadequate.

But I think asking busy professors, judges and attorneys to fill out the reputation survey is equivalent to asking them "based on your misremembered prejudices from 30 years ago when you went to law school and on the most recent USNWR rankings you looked up two minutes before taking this survey, how would you rate these schools?" Just really subjective.

But I'll admit I'm biased because without prac and prof reputation, NU would be somewhere at or below CCN and at or above BMVP.


I see your point. But the reality is that these people and their "biases" are the one's hiring you. Not those of us who worship US News and consider jumps in LSAT/GPA ratio along with the hottest new faculty as the best way of estimating employment prospects. Besides there is a reason HYS have always had higher lawyer/judge scores than the school's below them. Do people want to start saying that that's silly because of lawyer's "biases"? Besides I sure care a lot more about the people who will be hiring me and their biases than I do 0L's biases (LSAT/GPA ratio, location, top faculty hiring).


The problem is that consolidating "the biases of people hiring you" into one number is somewhat misleading. Most law schools still place largely into one or two regions. Look at UVA's stats for their top 11 markets. The vast majority of the class ends up in the southeast + NYC. From an employment point of view, how much does UVA's reputation in Cali matter?

Or look at NU's stats for their top 13 markets. Half end up in Chicago, and a lot of the rest ends up in NYC. Should NU students care about national reputation? It would seem to make more sense for them to care about reputation in Chicago, followed by reputation in NYC.

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IAFG
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:45 pm

those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.

09042014
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:46 pm

IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


What are your numbers? And how has your cycle gone.

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IAFG
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


What are your numbers? And how has your cycle gone.

173/~3.5 december LSAT, not in at a t14 yet

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booboo
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby booboo » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:51 pm

IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


After ten pages of analysis, this is the best response thus far.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:53 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


What are your numbers? And how has your cycle gone.

173/~3.5 december LSAT, not in at a t14 yet


I have the exact same numbers and was accepted ED in November. You are a lock at UVA ED, but not a lock anywhere else beside GULC.

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IAFG
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:54 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


What are your numbers? And how has your cycle gone.

173/~3.5 december LSAT, not in at a t14 yet


I have the exact same numbers and was accepted ED in November. You are a lock at UVA ED, but not a lock anywhere else beside GULC.

i am also a VA resident. i am probably already a lock at UVA.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:55 pm

IAFG wrote:i am also a VA resident. i am probably already a lock at UVA.


Yes you are. Don't ED you will be in.

WhatUpKells
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby WhatUpKells » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:55 pm

IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


Same. 3.7~/171 with no acceptances yet (granted, I didn't go complete until 12/1, but I had everything on my end in early Novermber, so it feels like I've been waiting a lot longer). I'm getting really antsy.

09042014
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:56 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:those tricky bastards. i am so tempted.


What are your numbers? And how has your cycle gone.

173/~3.5 december LSAT, not in at a t14 yet


Have you heard back from Michigan, Chicago, NYU yet? Do you have any market choice?

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JCougar
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby JCougar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:57 pm

hopefulincal wrote:I'm continuing this discussion only because I think it's an interesting business case. Obviously depending on the sample you present, you could argue one way or the other. I'd like to think about how this process actually happens:

September comes around, and applications start rolling in. For the sake of the argument let's drop the whole holistic view thing. The school starts getting apps, and decisions need to be made. Every school knows their previous medians and would like to increase those numbers. Thus, you pretty much auto-admit those with both numbers higher than your medians (sure you worry about yield, but let's put that aside for the moment). You also pretty much admit those with one number higher and the other number at median. Yes you can throw money at any of the above students to get them to enroll, but so are the other schools with similar medians. So, pretty soon you have an admitted pool, and you would know what your current medians are from the pool. You now monitor the medians for this pool closely. As you decide whether or not to admit each incoming application, you know how that applicant is going to affect your pool medians, and you weigh the gains and losses for each admit.

Meanwhile, your similarly ranked competitors are doing the same thing (which is why you have similar medians in the past). Now along comes an applicant that every school considers a splitter. Do you admit him/her? You look at how this applicant affects your medians. Most likely if admitting this applicant will help your numbers, it will likely help your competitors' numbers as well, so both of you will end up admitting him/her.

Yes, in the perfect world if you had all the applications laid out in front of you, you could figure out how to maximize your medians from the entire pool, but it doesn't work that way. Especially given the faster turnaround times for ED, you can't just sit and wait to see what your pool would look like. So you couldn't possibly go into the season with a splitter strategy because with every new admit you're risking your other number. If the distribution for both numbers are in fact very different and admitting one pool of splitters would easily raise the medians, you don't think your competitors would have figured that out also?

These rankings mean life and death to the Admissions Office, and if there is a low hanging fruit like admitting splitters, many schools would have done it already.


I'd be shocked if the numbers of your applicant pool varied that much year-by-year. It should be fairly easy to predict close to how many people with whatever numbers you want start applying. There's some risk involved that all of a sudden a lot of applicants you admit won't matriculate, but for this is probably steady year-to-year, as well.

And no, there's plenty of 170+ splitters that routinely get rejected from T-14 schools. The only schools in the T-14 that have a reputation for accepting them are UVA and Northwestern (but at NU only if you have work experience). Outside of that, you're an automatic reject at almost all of them unless you have around a 174+ and really good softs.

If UVA admits these people, they really have nowhere else to go in the T-14. It helps them raise their medians, raise their yield rate, and they really don't have to offer them scholarship money to get them to attend. It's a win-win-win situation for them.

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IAFG
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Have you heard back from Michigan, Chicago, NYU yet? Do you have any market choice?

my only decisions are f'ham (in) and penn (ding). want to work in NYC. probably i should hold out for chicago and NYU and see how my cookie crumbles but an almost-sure-thing at UVA is still very very tempting.

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Drew2010
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Drew2010 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Encyclopedia Brown wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Last summer several 175s with GPAs from low 3s downward were WL at NU until June. Just FYI.

Good information for sure, but are you thinking I should go ahead and ED at UVA (since I'll likely be waitlisted at NU) or that I should hang on since those ~3.0 splitters came OFF the waitlist?



EDing to UVA is probably your only shot at getting into UVA for you. I'd do it if I were you, and I'd go to NU over UVA. Extreme splitter cycles are really fucking risky. You've got to increase your chances of getting into a T14 any way possible.


I too would probably choose NU over UVA, which holds me back from the ED option.. since that isn't the case for you, unless you're holding out hope for another school you would rather go to (mich, cornell, gulc, ect... although I have no idea at your chances at any of them) I would ED at UVA if you're dead set on T14

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:02 pm

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Have you heard back from Michigan, Chicago, NYU yet? Do you have any market choice?

my only decisions are f'ham (in) and penn (ding). want to work in NYC. probably i should hold out for chicago and NYU and see how my cookie crumbles but an almost-sure-thing at UVA is still very very tempting.


If, like you said you are in state, you will almost assuredly get in RD.

09042014
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:06 pm

Drew2010 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Encyclopedia Brown wrote:
NayBoer wrote:Last summer several 175s with GPAs from low 3s downward were WL at NU until June. Just FYI.

Good information for sure, but are you thinking I should go ahead and ED at UVA (since I'll likely be waitlisted at NU) or that I should hang on since those ~3.0 splitters came OFF the waitlist?



EDing to UVA is probably your only shot at getting into UVA for you. I'd do it if I were you, and I'd go to NU over UVA. Extreme splitter cycles are really fucking risky. You've got to increase your chances of getting into a T14 any way possible.


I too would probably choose NU over UVA, which holds me back from the ED option.. since that isn't the case for you, unless you're holding out hope for another school you would rather go to (mich, cornell, gulc, ect... although I have no idea at your chances at any of them) I would ED at UVA if you're dead set on T14


If you have work experience you are in at Northwestern. I would bet a shit load of money on it.

rundoxierun
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:07 pm

What are we calling splitters?? would a 175, 3.55 be considered a splitter?? I mean, its below gpa 25th at most schools and above LSAT 75th.. that is what we mean by splitter, right?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:11 pm

tkgrrett wrote:What are we calling splitters?? would a 175, 3.55 be considered a splitter?? I mean, its below gpa 25th at most schools and above LSAT 75th.. that is what we mean by splitter, right?


I think with those numbers you are kinda sorta a splitter, but in my mind a splitter is 3.4 and lower and 170+

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IAFG
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:25 pm

it occurs to me that the majority of applicants will not even hear about this.

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UF Gators
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby UF Gators » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:34 pm

IAFG wrote:it occurs to me that the majority of applicants will not even hear about this.

That's what's so wonderful about this. You better start shopping for your pink gear!

--ImageRemoved--

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Encyclopedia Brown
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby Encyclopedia Brown » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:34 pm

IAFG wrote:it occurs to me that the majority of applicants will not even hear about this.

+1 Thank you TLS!

And Desert Fox, I've been a bartender for two years. I'm not sure that's the kind of work experience NU is looking for. Also, my interview was okay but not great.

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maximus34998
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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby maximus34998 » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:37 pm

IAFG wrote:it occurs to me that the majority of applicants will not even hear about this.


TITCR.

I think this is geared to those of us who are afraid that we scored ourselves right onto the WL at UVA. I am 173, 3.65 and am seriously contemplating doing this. I've applied to H, CCN, Duke, Mich, and NU, but UVA is probably my top choice. And I know they are well-known for WL'ing people who have #s for CCN. This is a brilliant move by Dean Trujillo to try to potentially lock down 15-20 applicants with high LSATs or GPAs, especially if the medians are really close to moving up. 15-20 students could be all it takes to move the median. And where are those 15-20 applicants? Probably sitting and reading this thread right now, freaking out. The typical (non-TLS) applicant may never have a clue.

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Re: UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline

Postby empirestateofmind » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:40 pm

Encyclopedia Brown wrote:
IAFG wrote:it occurs to me that the majority of applicants will not even hear about this.

+1 Thank you TLS!


Yeah I'm seriously contemplating this as well. 3.5/171 deferred from NYU and I haven't applied to Penn/Michigan yet. I'm thinking this is my only legit chance for T10 realistically. Glad that I at least know about the option!




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