UVA eliminates/extends ED deadline Forum

[GeePee]

I still don't get why UVA decided to alter their ED process like this, especially in the middle of the cycle. I mean, it's not really an "early" decision any longer, so why would they even continue to call it that? It seems like it has something to do with their yield, but whatever the reason, it sounds pretty shady to me.

Of course it does. Assume a previous yield of 25% for RD applicants (roughly rounded, but pretty close to UVA's actual yield when you discount ED acceptances. UVA's total yield is 33%, but there are ED accepts which have to go and raise the numbers). If this extended ED gives UVA 50 more acceptances, then UVA could go and waitlist/reject 200 other people they would previously have accepted. That is a net decrease in 150 admitted students. So, if you go from roughly 1050 admits for 350 seats to 900 admits for the same 350 seats, that is a significant increase in yield (33% to ~40%)

When you look at the increase in $$ the school makes/retains in addition, it turns out pretty well for the school.

[Borhas]

yeah whatever, I bet they just want a bunch of apps just so they can reject them

I think it's more than that. I think they're trying to lock in higher quality admits. Early January is a time during which people start to freak out. You've got 172/3.7 types who ED'd to Colubmia/NYU and who then got rejected/deferred. We've even seen a few people with those numbers who were deferred by Cornell. Furthermore, you've got the inevitable batch of high-quality applicants who were sure that they were getting into Berkeley in December but who are now puzzled that they have yet to hear anything. And, finally, you've got several schools (Chicago, NU, Columbia) who tend to take their sweet time getting back to RD applicants.

Basically, you've got hundreds of nervous applicants, some of whom with Columbia/Chicago/Berkeley numbers, who are worried that they will get shut out of the T14. Virginia is throwing them a late life line, and I bet at least a couple dozen will grab it. It's a brilliant move.

yeah probably...

I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the admissions process evolves after other schools follow suite.

Just more power into the hands of the adcoms

[ruleser]

I still don't get why UVA decided to alter their ED process like this, especially in the middle of the cycle. I mean, it's not really an "early" decision any longer, so why would they even continue to call it that? It seems like it has something to do with their yield, but whatever the reason, it sounds pretty shady to me.

Of course it does. Assume a previous yield of 25% for RD applicants (roughly rounded, but pretty close to UVA's actual yield when you discount ED acceptances. UVA's total yield is 33%, but there are ED accepts which have to go and raise the numbers). If this extended ED gives UVA 50 more acceptances, then UVA could go and waitlist/reject 200 other people they would previously have accepted. That is a net decrease in 150 admitted students. So, if you go from roughly 1050 admits for 350 seats to 900 admits for the same 350 seats, that is a significant increase in yield (33% to ~40%)

When you look at the increase in $$ the school makes/retains in addition, it turns out pretty well for the school.

All with no downside whatsoever...

[09042014]

If Dean Trujillo would extend the ED deadline till after the release of 2011 USNWR rankings, that would b truly awesome. With UVA's impressive jump in GPA least year (high 3.7s to 3.85), that should put them over Michigan (all else being equal, of course (not a terrible assumption)). When the inevitable "Michigan in decline" freakout occurs they could pick up a couple more candidates.

UVA and Mich will tied at 9

NU and Duke will tie for 11.

And UT and GT will tie for 14.

You heard it here first!

This would mean that Cooley couldn't be ranked 12th...BLASPHEMY!

When have numbers ever stopped Cooley?!? If they can invent a badass ranking system taking into consideration factors such as restroom square footage and total weightage of library staff, they can sure as hell invent a workaround to this measly problem.

Inventing a new number! Brilliant. Those elitist mathematicians will never see it coming.

[jawsthegreat]

I still don't get why UVA decided to alter their ED process like this, especially in the middle of the cycle. I mean, it's not really an "early" decision any longer, so why would they even continue to call it that? It seems like it has something to do with their yield, but whatever the reason, it sounds pretty shady to me.

Of course it does. Assume a previous yield of 25% for RD applicants (roughly rounded, but pretty close to UVA's actual yield when you discount ED acceptances. UVA's total yield is 33%, but there are ED accepts which have to go and raise the numbers). If this extended ED gives UVA 50 more acceptances, then UVA could go and waitlist/reject 200 other people they would previously have accepted. That is a net decrease in 150 admitted students. So, if you go from roughly 1050 admits for 350 seats to 900 admits for the same 350 seats, that is a significant increase in yield (33% to ~40%)

When you look at the increase in $$ the school makes/retains in addition, it turns out pretty well for the school.

Then with the money saved they can dish out more $$$ for better applicants and increase expenditures further increasing their score in the USNWR rankings.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like this can only help the schools numbers. Which in turn helps me. Which makes my happy.

[Borhas]

I still don't get why UVA decided to alter their ED process like this, especially in the middle of the cycle. I mean, it's not really an "early" decision any longer, so why would they even continue to call it that? It seems like it has something to do with their yield, but whatever the reason, it sounds pretty shady to me.

Of course it does. Assume a previous yield of 25% for RD applicants (roughly rounded, but pretty close to UVA's actual yield when you discount ED acceptances. UVA's total yield is 33%, but there are ED accepts which have to go and raise the numbers). If this extended ED gives UVA 50 more acceptances, then UVA could go and waitlist/reject 200 other people they would previously have accepted. That is a net decrease in 150 admitted students. So, if you go from roughly 1050 admits for 350 seats to 900 admits for the same 350 seats, that is a significant increase in yield (33% to ~40%)

When you look at the increase in $$ the school makes/retains in addition, it turns out pretty well for the school.

Then with the money saved they can dish out more $$$ for better applicants and increase expenditures further increasing their score in the USNWR rankings.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like this can only help the schools numbers. Which in turn helps me. Which makes my happy.

if it helps it will only last a year as UVa's peers will follow suite

[jawsthegreat]

I still don't get why UVA decided to alter their ED process like this, especially in the middle of the cycle. I mean, it's not really an "early" decision any longer, so why would they even continue to call it that? It seems like it has something to do with their yield, but whatever the reason, it sounds pretty shady to me.

Of course it does. Assume a previous yield of 25% for RD applicants (roughly rounded, but pretty close to UVA's actual yield when you discount ED acceptances. UVA's total yield is 33%, but there are ED accepts which have to go and raise the numbers). If this extended ED gives UVA 50 more acceptances, then UVA could go and waitlist/reject 200 other people they would previously have accepted. That is a net decrease in 150 admitted students. So, if you go from roughly 1050 admits for 350 seats to 900 admits for the same 350 seats, that is a significant increase in yield (33% to ~40%)

When you look at the increase in $$ the school makes/retains in addition, it turns out pretty well for the school.

Then with the money saved they can dish out more $$$ for better applicants and increase expenditures further increasing their score in the USNWR rankings.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like this can only help the schools numbers. Which in turn helps me. Which makes my happy.

if it helps it will only last a year as UVa's peers will follow suite

The way that the rankings work, being a year ahead of your peer schools is a big advantage.

[Borhas]

The way that the rankings work, being a year ahead of your peer schools is a big advantage.

not a year ahead, ahead for a year

I doubt this will do anything but marginally boost UVa for the next ranking cycle. After that others will adapt, and there will be no winners, and the losers will future law school applicants who have to try to game the system even more or get played by it.

[jawsthegreat]

The way that the rankings work, being a year ahead of your peer schools is a big advantage.

not a year ahead, ahead for a year

I doubt this will do anything but marginally boost UVa for the next ranking cycle. After that others will adapt, and there will be no winners, and the losers will future law school applicants who have to try to game the system even more or get played by it.

Yea but if you get an advantage one year it sometimes becomes a self fulfilling prophecy with the way applicants view your school's quality. Ex: the way people view Berkley and NYU on TLS.

[billyez]

I'm okay with this. It's good for the school and yeah, people who ED sacrifice money and choice but they made that choice when they agreed to go ED. If anything, it'll only cause people with fringe numbers to go ED with the idea that the ED will help them out a little - they'll be rejected and the school gets money. Which is what they want because law schools don't care about people.

...Erm, sorry, got a little bitter there.

[jnorsky]

Doesn't hurt that Wachtell was founded by four NYU law grads.

[rundoxierun]

Some T14 needs to counter by adapting the GW strategy of offering a full scholly to all ED acceptees.. I would instantly ED, no question.

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Wow... I wonder what prompted this change.

Are apps down at UVA?

I think UVA is for sure trying to get more applicants, I got a fee waiver from them as a non-URM with a sub-3.0 GPA.

O RLY

This is interesting...

That is nothing new at all, this year or last. It's simple: more apps means not only more quality applicants (at least sometimes) and a chance for a school to be surprised with a slightly lower-numbered person who might not have otherwise applied, but also more application denials, and a greater chance to boost numbers giving the appearance of being extremely selective.

Don't get me wrong, UVA already is selective. But this strategy helps to make them look even more selective. And they aren't the only school that does this either. It's an understandable and somewhat common strategy. As long as USNWR factors that in (ugh), schools have reason to do this.

Say ONLY 300 people apply to X school and 200 get in because they all have 170+ LSATs. The school would still come across as having one of the worst selectivity rates in the country (67%?!), even though that is no accurate predictor of the school's quality. So all in all, I think including that into the rankings is a disservice and encourages some unusual behavior from a number of schools.

And that's the end of my rant.

[Borhas]

The way that the rankings work, being a year ahead of your peer schools is a big advantage.

not a year ahead, ahead for a year

I doubt this will do anything but marginally boost UVa for the next ranking cycle. After that others will adapt, and there will be no winners, and the losers will future law school applicants who have to try to game the system even more or get played by it.

Yea but if you get an advantage one year it sometimes becomes a self fulfilling prophecy with the way applicants view your school's quality. Ex: the way people view Berkley and NYU on TLS.

well I don't really know what you are referring with NYU and Berkeley, but at the end of the day it won't hurt UVa, except in the eyes of folks like me... who are entirely irrelevant to their decision making process

[kurama20]

Yea but if you get an advantage one year it sometimes becomes a self fulfilling prophecy with the way applicants view your school's quality. Ex: the way people view Berkley and NYU on TLS.

I was just thinking this. US News doesn't have an effect on real life legal employers views of the schools within the top 14. They basically look at the schools the same way they did 10 or even 20 years ago. But in the eyes of applicants it has a HUGE influence on the school's prestige and strength. You hear people on here saying all the time how they couldn't turn down a "top 6" admission to NYU or Berkeley to go to a "lower" top 14 like Michigan or UVA. The US News overall rankings have a huge affect on 0L's (ie the people applying to the school's) view of the institution. I remember a guy on here a while back who got good money at Michigan and didn't even want to live or work in NYC, but had a very hard time taking Mich over NYU because he thought he might be "closing doors" by going to Michigan. He repeatedly asked people if taking the cash at Michigan would be worth the doors that would be closed by not going to NYU. US News runs the applicant community.

Doesn't hurt that Wachtell was founded by four NYU law grads.

Doesn't hurt that Williams and Connolly were founded by a GULC grad.

well I don't really know what you are referring with NYU and Berkeley, but at the end of the day it won't hurt UVa, except in the eyes of folks like me... who are entirely irrelevant to their decision making process

Simple. NYU and Berkeley are two schools that skyrocketed the US News ranks with techniques instead of actually improving in any sort of real world employment metrics, and consequently have skyrocketed in prestige in the minds of young applicants (as can be seen in your response to his post). The two schools aren't any different in real world prestige than Michigan or UVA, but they figured out ways to boost their US News rank. It seems that UVA is following suit. Hell in two years people who read US News and don't follow the real placement stats will start calling UVA a "top 6" just like they do with Boalt and NYU.

[Borhas]

Simple. NYU and Berkeley are two schools that skyrocketed the US News ranks with techniques instead of actually improving in any sort of real world employment metrics, and consequently have skyrocketed in prestige in the minds of young applicants (as can be seen in your response to his post). The two schools aren't any different in real world prestige than Michigan or UVA, but they figured out ways to boost their US News rank. It seems that UVA is following suit. Hell in two years people who read US News and don't follow the real placement stats will start calling UVA a "top 6" just like they do with Boalt and NYU.

can you go into this with a bit of detail, I'm kind of curious about these techniques

[kurama20]

Simple. NYU and Berkeley are two schools that skyrocketed the US News ranks with techniques instead of actually improving in any sort of real world employment metrics, and consequently have skyrocketed in prestige in the minds of young applicants (as can be seen in your response to his post). The two schools aren't any different in real world prestige than Michigan or UVA, but they figured out ways to boost their US News rank. It seems that UVA is following suit. Hell in two years people who read US News and don't follow the real placement stats will start calling UVA a "top 6" just like they do with Boalt and NYU.

can you go into this with a bit of detail, I'm kind of curious about these techniques

NYU's specialty is calculating very high faculty expenditures. Someone actually broke it down very well in an old thread but I'm not sure exactly how it works. The other thing is spending a lot of money building new libraries and other facilities, which UVA is actually doing/did recently (and NYU and Boalt did a few years back as well).

You can also increase rank by finding ways to artificially increase your selectivity by messing with yield (say sending out a lot of fee waivers to people who have no chance, very akin to what UVA is doing with this change in ED policy, and similar to how Boalt's acceptance rate starting plummeting and favoring high GPA people. UVA has been doing this--it's easier to jump in GPA than LSAT). The other great way to do it is to hire hot new faculty. This is an excellent way to quickly increase the peer assessment scores, which are heavily influenced by who has been hiring the "hottest" new faculty. That will boost a school's rank very quickly. Actually the more I think about it UVA is doing exactly what NYU and Boalt have been doing in recent years. They are basically gaming the system, maybe even harder than NYU and Boalt did, so they can jump in the rankings.

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much. Another thing, in all seriousness, if Michigan doesn't do something quickly they are going to drop. Which is really sad because this will feed the "Michigan is declining garbage" and is not based in any sort of reality.

[Helmholtz]

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much.

Nah, it was HYSCCN even when Berk > Chi in the USNWR. Certainly would take more than two years before people started coining it HYSCCNV, which will probably never happen. I think people pay a much closer look to metrics such as fed clerkships and especially NLJ250 ranking than you may be giving them credit for.

[jawsthegreat]

Simple. NYU and Berkeley are two schools that skyrocketed the US News ranks with techniques instead of actually improving in any sort of real world employment metrics, and consequently have skyrocketed in prestige in the minds of young applicants (as can be seen in your response to his post). The two schools aren't any different in real world prestige than Michigan or UVA, but they figured out ways to boost their US News rank. It seems that UVA is following suit. Hell in two years people who read US News and don't follow the real placement stats will start calling UVA a "top 6" just like they do with Boalt and NYU.

can you go into this with a bit of detail, I'm kind of curious about these techniques

NYU's specialty is calculating very high faculty expenditures. Someone actually broke it down very well in an old thread but I'm not sure exactly how it works. The other thing is spending a lot of money building new libraries and other facilities, which UVA is actually doing/did recently (and NYU and Boalt did a few years back as well).

You can also increase rank by finding ways to artificially increase your selectivity by messing with yield (say sending out a lot of fee waivers to people who have no chance, very akin to what UVA is doing with this change in ED policy, and similar to how Boalt's acceptance rate starting plummeting and favoring high GPA people. UVA has been doing this--it's easier to jump in GPA than LSAT). The other great way to do it is to hire hot new faculty. This is an excellent way to quickly increase the peer assessment scores, which are heavily influenced by who has been hiring the "hottest" new faculty. That will boost a school's rank very quickly. Actually the more I think about it UVA is doing exactly what NYU and Boalt have been doing in recent years. They are basically gaming the system, maybe even harder than NYU and Boalt did, so they can jump in the rankings.

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much. Another thing, in all seriousness, if Michigan doesn't do something quickly they are going to drop. Which is really sad because this will feed the "Michigan is declining garbage" and is not based in any sort of reality.

For a perfect example of what the USNWR rankings can do to people on TLS look at the responses this guy gets on this thread when asked to compare NYU, Berkley and Michigan. My favorite quote:

"even if you want to practice in california, I think NYU is a better choice. My SO's friend, who wasn't exactly the smartest guy in NYU Law, still found a top firm job in Los Angeles pretty easily in this harsh economic condition.
IMO, you never know what's going to happen in your life, so if money is not an issue, I would rather possess a degree that will grant you more flexibility (not that Cal doesn't give you one)."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=55909

[Borhas]

Simple. NYU and Berkeley are two schools that skyrocketed the US News ranks with techniques instead of actually improving in any sort of real world employment metrics, and consequently have skyrocketed in prestige in the minds of young applicants (as can be seen in your response to his post). The two schools aren't any different in real world prestige than Michigan or UVA, but they figured out ways to boost their US News rank. It seems that UVA is following suit. Hell in two years people who read US News and don't follow the real placement stats will start calling UVA a "top 6" just like they do with Boalt and NYU.

can you go into this with a bit of detail, I'm kind of curious about these techniques

NYU's specialty is calculating very high faculty expenditures. Someone actually broke it down very well in an old thread but I'm not sure exactly how it works. The other thing is spending a lot of money building new libraries and other facilities, which UVA is actually doing/did recently (and NYU and Boalt did a few years back as well).

You can also increase rank by finding ways to artificially increase your selectivity by messing with yield (say sending out a lot of fee waivers to people who have no chance, very akin to what UVA is doing with this change in ED policy, and similar to how Boalt's acceptance rate starting plummeting and favoring high GPA people. UVA has been doing this--it's easier to jump in GPA than LSAT). The other great way to do it is to hire hot new faculty. This is an excellent way to quickly increase the peer assessment scores, which are heavily influenced by who has been hiring the "hottest" new faculty. That will boost a school's rank very quickly. Actually the more I think about it UVA is doing exactly what NYU and Boalt have been doing in recent years. They are basically gaming the system, maybe even harder than NYU and Boalt did, so they can jump in the rankings.

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much. Another thing, in all seriousness, if Michigan doesn't do something quickly they are going to drop. Which is really sad because this will feed the "Michigan is declining garbage" and is not based in any sort of reality.

thanks for the info

what a bunch of bullshit this all is

[kurama20]

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much.

Nah, it was HYSCCN even when Berk > Chi in the USNWR. Certainly would take more than two years before people started coining it HYSCCNV, which will probably never happen. I think people pay a much closer look to metrics such as fed clerkships and especially NLJ250 ranking than you may be giving them credit for.

You sure? Boalt was ranked freaking 13 a few years ago. If they could jump from 13 to 6 UVA can definitely go from 10 to 6 or even tie for 5 one day. Give UVA about 3 years-- hell if they hire some hot faculty they would actually have an easier time doing it than Boalt did. They have been building up new facilities like no tomorrow, they are artificially inflating their selectivity, their medians are basically "better" than Boalt this year, and they have consistently had higher lawyer/judge scores than NYU and Boalt. If UVA wants it bad enough (which it appears they do) they can become a "top 6"...whatever the hell that even means at this point. The truth is that all a top 14 school needs to do to skyrocket in rank is to get a dean who is willing to do what he has to do ( what people often call a "superstar" dean) like how NYU got one, and Boalt got one, and now UVA has one....

[jawsthegreat]

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much.

Nah, it was HYSCCN even when Berk > Chi in the USNWR. Certainly would take more than two years before people started coining it HYSCCNV, which will probably never happen. I think people pay a much closer look to metrics such as fed clerkships and especially NLJ250 ranking than you may be giving them credit for.

You sure? Boalt was ranked freaking 13 a few years ago. If they could jump from 13 to 6 UVA can definitely go from 10 to 6 or even tie for 5 one day. Give UVA about 3 years/ Hell if they hire some hot faculty they would actually have an easier time doing it than Boalt did. They have been building up new facilities like no tomorrow, they are artificially inflating their selectivity, their medians are basically "better" than Boalt this year, and they have consistently had higher lawyer/judge scores than NYU and Boalt. If UVA wants it bad enough (which it appears they do) they can become a "top 6"...whatever the hell that even means at this point. The truth is that all a top 14 school needs to do to skyrocket in rank is to get a dean who is willing to do what he has to do ( what people often call a "superstar" dean) like how NYU got one, and Boalt got one, and now UVA has one....

The administration has publicly declared that their goal is to be ranked in the top 5 and it appears they are going to do everything it takes to reach it.

I'm not saying they will be a Top 5 school (very doubtful) but I could easily see it moving into the NYU/Berkley range.

[kurama20]

The administration has publicly declared that their goal is to be ranked in the top 5 and it appears they are going to do everything it takes to reach it.

I'm not saying they will be a Top 5 school (very doubtful) but I could easily see it moving into the NYU/Berkley range.

LOL are you serious? They really said that? That pretty much seals the deal. lol it's unreal how much power US News has over the schools. Honestly if they want to they can get to six in US News.

[Helmholtz]

LOL People are going to start calling UVA a "top 6" on here in the next 2 years. I gotta say this is kind of funny; it's amazing how much influence US News has on the schools and the applicants. Thank God it doesn't influence employers much.

Nah, it was HYSCCN even when Berk > Chi in the USNWR. Certainly would take more than two years before people started coining it HYSCCNV, which will probably never happen. I think people pay a much closer look to metrics such as fed clerkships and especially NLJ250 ranking than you may be giving them credit for.

You sure? Boalt was freaking 13 a few years ago. If they could jump from 13 to 6 UVA can definitely go from 10 to 6 or even tie for 5 one day. Give UVA about 3 years/ Hell if they hire some hot faculty they would actually have an easier time doing it than Boalt did. They have been building up new facilities like no tomorrow, they are artificially inflating their selectivity, their medians are basically "better" than Boalt this year, and they have consistently had higher lawyer/judge scores than NYU and Boalt. If UVA wants it bad enough (which it appears they do) they can become a "top 6"...whatever the hell that even means at this point.

HYSCCN has been HYSCCN for a while, relatively speaking, just look up the old threads on LSD or something. In that time, UPenn has been tied with Chicago for consecutive years and Berkeley has been higher than Chicago. NYU is almost always top 4 when it comes to NLJ250, which gives people major boners around here. That, along with their improvements in clerkship placement, seems to point to NYU staying in their HYSCCN seat for a decent amount of time. I'm with you when you say that N is not on par with CC, although I would say they're a small step up over MVP. Until UVA boosts its NLJ250 placement by at least 10 percentage points and is higher than one of CCN in the USNWR for a significant time, it's not going to be CCNV.

[jawsthegreat]

The administration has publicly declared that their goal is to be ranked in the top 5 and it appears they are going to do everything it takes to reach it.

I'm not saying they will be a Top 5 school (very doubtful) but I could easily see it moving into the NYU/Berkley range.

LOL are you serious? They really said that? That pretty much seals the deal. lol it's unreal how much power US News has over the schools. Honestly if they want to they can get to six.

Yea, I am trying to find the law weekly article about it. But, somebody definitely said it 1-2 years ago.