Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

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kurama20
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:18 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
ali & ali wrote:
You make some really good points Brainalist, but you don't think that, especially ITE, a degree from Harvard would have more clout in, say, San Fransisco, than a degree from NYU? And about the five years of slavery...I think I would want to start off at a larger firm anyway, just to get my feet on the ground in the profession. I want to work in the private sector, so I might be spending five years at that firm anyway.



I don't think that. I have yet to see any data about ITE that says anything about that kind of placement. As with "international" reach. I think it is largely unsupported with anything other than speculation combined with echo chamber Harvard lust. The 2L in the NYU Q's thread suggested that everyone who wanted a firm job in CA got one, but I have no reason to trust that anymore than the Harvard grad who came on here saying she knew no one who was not employed (even I know someone from Harvard who got hosed).

sayan wrote:HLS tuition and CLS tuition are roughly the same at around 45k. Let's say you get half tuition scholarship from CLS. You save 23k a year for 69k savings over 3 years.

Amortized over a 30-year career, that's only 2.3k per year. Just having the better clerking opportunities and lateral mobility make it worth it IMO.

There's also less pressure at HLS also with the H/P system vs. CLS grading system. Even if you argue that the H will now become mandatory to succeed at HLS, 35% of the class gets it as opposed to 5-10% A's in other law schools.


This is the same BS I got from a used car salesman last year. Yes, the monthly payments are lower, but I don't want to be making payments for 30 years. Here is an easier calculation. Say you are class of 2006 at Harvard and you take a big law firm job. You want to get out of Loans fast so you pay 40k every year on your 200k loan. When you pay off your loans, you are going to do what you really wanted to do, become a federal prosecutor. Lots of job openings at US Attorney's offices 2007 and 2008. You have a coworker class of 2006 U Penn, he leaves in 2008 for US Attorney's Office because he only had 80k in loans. It is now 2010. Congratulations, your loans are now down to an acceptable level and you are sick of Biglaw and want to be a federal prosecutor. Too bad the economy is in the pooper, they aren't hiring at federal prosecutor's office. They aren't hiring anywhere. This is the effect of lost opportunity costs, things you miss out on while indentured.

Also, H/P grades are pretty. They make me feel warm and fuzzy. Jury is maybe still out on the effect. Before ITE, 99% of people form Columbia did fine with grades. If there is a significant employment rate difference between H and Col when the numbers come out for ITE, it may be because of the grades, it may just be because H is better. I won't care either way.

Dignan wrote: You'd be surprised. Over at Volokh Conspiracy, there was a thread this summer about how competitive federal clerkships were this past year. A current COA clerk was assigned the responsibility of taking an initial pass at the 1,200 clerkship applications. The judge instructed the clerk to look only at applications submitted by graduates of Harvard, Stanford, or Yale; all other applications were immediately discarded. If you had finished first in your class at Columbia or NYU, your application would not have even been looked at by this judge.


This is a given. There are going to be many appellate judges that only hire from certain schools. I read somewhere on leiter's site that, for SCOTUS clerks anyway, the number of students placed from certain schools is more a reflection of having a couple judges in their pockets. Some judges, only Yale and Harvard. Scalia, usually good for 1 Chicago clerk. I PROMISE you that I am not going to clerk for the supreme court. I guarantee it. I love me. I can do 50 push ups. I don't think a supreme court clerkship is in my future even from Yale.

Even from Harvard, the odds of me getting an appellate clerkship with a judge who refuses to even look at the #1 grad from Columbia are not even worth thinking about. Once that judge limited the scope to the 200 YHS grads, I'm pretty sure she's not looking for a median grad from a state UG.

At any rate, we are all well aware of the clerking numbers for the top 10 schools, that data is readily available. I'm willing to bet 90% of people who clerk just go to being a lawyer afterwards anyways. If I decided to take out full boat to go to H just because there are a couple judges who have school preferences for clerks, either before or after clerking I'd still be forced to do 5 years indentured servitude in Biglaw. No thanks. If, after a couple of years in a top law firm I decide I want to go into government or go into a small firm, seek a doctorate, or have kids, I don't think adding the extra year of clerking for crappy pay in front of my indentured servitude would have been worth it. It just adds an extra year in front without increasing my ability to seize upon opportunities in that scenario. Not that I think clerking is bad, I just think it is a sacrifice that can be better made if you don't compound it with having to pay off full loans.

bahama wrote:
The first job you get affects what options you have for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th job etc. As does the network that you have. So where you start can make a difference 5-10 yrs down the road.



I just haven't seen anything that supports any difference between where 90% of people at Columbia end up and 90% of people from Harvard end up as to their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th jobs. The clerkship stat is there, but if they just end up going to the same job practicing law in a v10 law firm as a columbia grad after that, then it the statistic stands for nothing more than the ability to get clerkships, not long term potential. Harvard grads with clerkships are working right along side undistinguished columbia grads who never clerked. My understanding is that people clerk, then often return to the same firm they had summered at 2L (although I read on ATL that there was a firm in LA with a ton of SCOTUS clerks, which, again, I will never work in such a firm even from Yale). Once you are at this high level of acheivement, which is where all Harvard and (just to change schools) Chicago grads stand, people spend so much time trying to differentiate the schools based on what only 10 students from Harvard acheived and 1 from Chicago. At the end of the day, though, it either doesn't matter for 99% of us or, even those who do acheive the higher levels of distinction don't really have anywhere to go after that but to the same careers as the people who were just above median in T6, unless it is teaching. Congratulations, you clerked for SCOTUS! We'd like to offer you a job at wachtell, the number 1 firm in the US, where you can work with 49 Columbia grads, none of whom clerked for the Supreme Court.



Just so you know you are sort of merging the types of firms that say a grad of HLS with a COA clerkship goes for with the types of firms that an elite CLS grad goes for, they are different types of firms. Most people who clerk for SCOTUS for example are not going to be going to a V10 firm (because outside of Cov and Kirkland these firms are essentially all transactional focused). People who clerk for a COA judge and/or a SCOTUS judge tend to go to litigation type firms (these firms essentially require a federal or better clerkship to even get an after graduation offer. So the clerkship is a LOT more important than what you were making it out to be in your post), where honestly HLS does seriously outdo Columbia (not firms like Wachtell and most of the V10). They also tend to do DOJ and other government jobs.

Your comments do make a lot of sense and do hold weight (when it comes to the clerkship not being worth it, and HLS not being worth it) if you are talking about going for transactional jobs. If you want a job at say Kellog Huber, you better have a clerkship and really you want to be applying with a HLS or YLS JD on your resume, not a CLS one (at extremely elite lit firms like Kellog Huber, Munger, or Robbins Russell you will not being working alongside 49 CLS grads with no clerkship). I think a lot of people don't realize how different lit and transactional are in terms of their school preferences and the fact that they practically require clerkships at the more elite lit firms.

My guess is that you actually are aiming for transactional jobs because that seems to be what almost all of TLS is aiming for (to a point where I'm starting to wonder if people are actually a little confused about legal options, because frankly a lot of the elitism that people on here have is actually overkill if you are only really interested in NYC transactional big law). For that there really isn't much of a difference between HYS and CCN, and even MVP do really well if that's all you care about. Really, if you just want NYC transactional biglaw it does make sense to go to Penn for free over say Stanford sticker, unless you are just that worried about being at the bottom of the class.

The reason you probably haven't seen any difference between where a HLS grad with a top clerkship goes as opposed to a CLS grad with no clerkship, is because you are heavily focusing on transactional firms (probably in NYC). If you were to look at DC and Cali lit firms you would see a BIG difference (and especially when you look at people moving over to the DOJ). Top Harvard grads with a clerkship are not working alongside undistinguished CLS grads when you look at a place like Williams and Connolly. All that said if you are looking at transactional big law (especially in NYC) you are totally right, it does make more sense to take the big cash at CLS rather than Harvard (or big cash at NYU, Chicago, or Penn for that matter too).

Esc
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby Esc » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:22 pm

I don't have my first semester grades back yet, and haven't interviewed for 1L summer jobs yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I took free tuition to Texas over Harvard and I'm extremely thankful that I did so.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:32 pm

Esc wrote:I don't have my first semester grades back yet, and haven't interviewed for 1L summer jobs yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I took free tuition to Texas over Harvard and I'm extremely thankful that I did so.


..and if I remember correctly, you're a Texas resident, want to work in Texas or something along those lines, initially Texas was your top choice and you really wanted to stay in the State. Also, ONLY AFTER you had got an acceptance from Harvard, you were a bit perplexed and even made a Texas $$$ vs Harvard thread (though, I cannot remember what the poll resulted in). Right?

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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby Esc » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:59 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
Esc wrote:I don't have my first semester grades back yet, and haven't interviewed for 1L summer jobs yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I took free tuition to Texas over Harvard and I'm extremely thankful that I did so.


..and if I remember correctly, you're a Texas resident, want to work in Texas or something along those lines, initially Texas was your top choice and you really wanted to stay in the State. Also, ONLY AFTER you had got an acceptance from Harvard, you were a bit perplexed and even made a Texas $$$ vs Harvard thread (though, I cannot remember what the poll resulted in). Right?


Yes, but my point is that I'm not regretting my decision. After seeing the HLS public interest funding dry up and after reading articles that show HLS grads in the bottom half of their class are not immune to difficulty in getting employment, I'm very glad that I decided to take scholarship over prestige. It will be harder to get certain superstar jobs from Texas, perhaps, but with low debt I'll be secure no matter how things turn out. I couldn't say that if I had chosen HLS. The same would hold true even without my local affinity.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:10 pm

kurama20 wrote:

Just so you know you are sort of merging the types of firms that say a grad of HLS with a COA clerkship goes for with the types of firms that an elite CLS grad goes for, they are different types of firms. Most people who clerk for SCOTUS for example are not going to be going to a V10 firm (because outside of Cov and Kirkland these firms are essentially all transactional focused). People who clerk for a COA judge and/or a SCOTUS judge tend to go to litigation type firms (these firms essentially require a federal or better clerkship to even get an after graduation offer. So the clerkship is a LOT more important than what you were making it out to be in your post), where honestly HLS does seriously outdo Columbia (not firms like Wachtell and most of the V10). They also tend to do DOJ and other government jobs.

Your comments do make a lot of sense and do hold weight (when it comes to the clerkship not being worth it, and HLS not being worth it) if you are talking about going for transactional jobs. If you want a job at say Kellog Huber, you better have a clerkship and really you want to be applying with a HLS or YLS JD on your resume, not a CLS one (at extremely elite lit firms like Kellog Huber, Munger, or Robbins Russell you will not being working alongside 49 CLS grads with no clerkship). I think a lot of people don't realize how different lit and transactional are in terms of their school preferences and the fact that they practically require clerkships at the more elite lit firms.

My guess is that you actually are aiming for transactional jobs because that seems to be what almost all of TLS is aiming for (to a point where I'm starting to wonder if people are actually a little confused about legal options, because frankly a lot of the elitism that people on here have is actually overkill if you are only really interested in NYC transactional big law). For that there really isn't much of a difference between HYS and CCN, and even MVP do really well if that's all you care about. Really, if you just want NYC transactional biglaw it does make sense to go to Penn for free over say Stanford sticker, unless you are just that worried about being at the bottom of the class.

The reason you probably haven't seen any difference between where a HLS grad with a top clerkship goes as opposed to a CLS grad with no clerkship, is because you are heavily focusing on transactional firms (probably in NYC). If you were to look at DC and Cali lit firms you would see a BIG difference (and especially when you look at people moving over to the DOJ). Top Harvard grads with a clerkship are not working alongside undistinguished CLS grads when you look at a place like Williams and Connolly. All that said if you are looking at transactional big law (especially in NYC) you are totally right, it does make more sense to take the big cash at CLS rather than Harvard (or big cash at NYU, Chicago, or Penn for that matter too).


You obviously know more about this than I do. All the wachtell grads were distinguished with honors, etc., just not necessarily clerkships, but transactional emphasis does explain that. I checked Williams & connolly (http://www.williamsconnolly.com automatically turns to http://www.wc.com, so you know they are ballin'), and it does seem that an appellate clerkship is almost a necessity (one columbia and one NYU gard with just law review/honors, but not enough to say they aren't the exception that prove the rule). Chicago, UVA, and Penn, given their smaller class sizes, are represented there about proportionately the same as Harvard, there, though. It is good to see what the clerking difference makes, though, even if it doesn't make harvard the hands-down winner.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby TheLuckyOne » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:27 pm

Esc wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
Esc wrote:I don't have my first semester grades back yet, and haven't interviewed for 1L summer jobs yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I took free tuition to Texas over Harvard and I'm extremely thankful that I did so.


..and if I remember correctly, you're a Texas resident, want to work in Texas or something along those lines, initially Texas was your top choice and you really wanted to stay in the State. Also, ONLY AFTER you had got an acceptance from Harvard, you were a bit perplexed and even made a Texas $$$ vs Harvard thread (though, I cannot remember what the poll resulted in). Right?


Yes, but my point is that I'm not regretting my decision. After seeing the HLS public interest funding dry up and after reading articles that show HLS grads in the bottom half of their class are not immune to difficulty in getting employment, I'm very glad that I decided to take scholarship over prestige. It will be harder to get certain superstar jobs from Texas, perhaps, but with low debt I'll be secure no matter how things turn out. I couldn't say that if I had chosen HLS. The same would hold true even without my local affinity.


LOL, ok, but let's face it, your decision and current stance is way too biased and subjective since your plans are very in line with UT. It's like me vouching for Harvard as the absolute best place for everyone as if my opinion is objective. (However, it's hard to deny it) :P

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BasketCaseBrief
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby BasketCaseBrief » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:09 pm

The general rule is to go to a lower-ranked school that offers money, UNLESS you're accepted at HYS. So yeah, go to Hahvuhd.

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sayan
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby sayan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:15 pm

BasketCaseBrief wrote:The general rule is to go to a lower-ranked school that offers money, UNLESS you're accepted at HYS. So yeah, go to Hahvuhd.


Necessary but not sufficient by your own reasoning. :p

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:28 pm

BasketCaseBrief wrote:The general rule is to go to a lower-ranked school that offers money, UNLESS you're accepted at HYS. So yeah, go to Hahvuhd.


No need to examine whether the rule makes any sense, however.

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billyez
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby billyez » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:51 pm

I think it's really odd that people who, having been accepted to multiple top-ranked schools, resort to picking a school due to it's prestige. You've already been accepted to schools in the T14. You've cracked the ceiling. It just seems really nonsensical ot me to go to resort to prestige in that case.

The difficulty of this choice, to me, would result in only two situations: Harvard or the "more prestigious" school in such a scenario has a program that really appeals to your career interests or you're in a completely different situation - one in which the "more prestigious" school is the only one of it's caliber that you got into. Neither of these situations is applicable to you from what I've read. Go where the money is.

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sayan
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby sayan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:01 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
This is the same BS I got from a used car salesman last year. Yes, the monthly payments are lower, but I don't want to be making payments for 30 years. Here is an easier calculation. Say you are class of 2006 at Harvard and you take a big law firm job. You want to get out of Loans fast so you pay 40k every year on your 200k loan. When you pay off your loans, you are going to do what you really wanted to do, become a federal prosecutor. Lots of job openings at US Attorney's offices 2007 and 2008. You have a coworker class of 2006 U Penn, he leaves in 2008 for US Attorney's Office because he only had 80k in loans. It is now 2010. Congratulations, your loans are now down to an acceptable level and you are sick of Biglaw and want to be a federal prosecutor. Too bad the economy is in the pooper, they aren't hiring at federal prosecutor's office. They aren't hiring anywhere. This is the effect of lost opportunity costs, things you miss out on while indentured.

Also, H/P grades are pretty. They make me feel warm and fuzzy. Jury is maybe still out on the effect. Before ITE, 99% of people form Columbia did fine with grades. If there is a significant employment rate difference between H and Col when the numbers come out for ITE, it may be because of the grades, it may just be because H is better. I won't care either way.


If you're going to raise self-serving hypotheticals to support your argument then there's really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.

The point I tried to raise was that 2.5k/year, regardless of how long you pay it over, is minuscule given future salary earnings. If HLS can give you even a little bit of a leg-up in some areas (as already mentioned that it does) then it may be worth it for some people who desire those advantages at a marginally reduced salary over their lifetime.

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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby aussie3b » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:11 pm

OP....TLS is great for a lot of things but perspective on this question is limited. The most sensible post I've seen here is from the Yale 1L...I'd take most other posts with a grain of salt. Anyone who pretends like this is an easy decision doesn't know what they are talking about. I am in a similar situation...trying to decide on a full darrow offer. The only perspectives I am interested in are from people who have wrestled with this decision and chosen one way or another. I'm particularly interested in hearing from HYS students/graduates and other T10 graduates/students who have been through the ringer with job searches and grades. Note that I'm not just a kid who got a full scholarship offer and is now in a giddy trance...I left I-banking to become a lawyer because I'm interested in becoming a lawyer..my sister is a Yale alum...and my dad is a law professor...and not a single person I've talked to has pretended like this is an easy choice.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:24 pm

sayan wrote:
If you're going to raise self-serving hypotheticals to support your argument then there's really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.

The point I tried to raise was that 2.5k/year, regardless of how long you pay it over is miniscule given future salary earnings. If HLS can give you even a little bit of a leg-up in some areas (as already mentioned) then I think it's worth it.

It really is a subjective decision though given people's value of money and debt. Hence, the fundamental argument is premised in futility.


Being able to pay off debt in 2 years rather than 5 is a self-serving hypothetical? Timing means a lot. You miss out on a lot when opportunity knocks if you can't take it, because it may not knock again later when it is convenient to you.

This is some used-car selling BS, dude. Just because I can manage the payments doesn't mean it is good to be carrying around an extra 60k-120k in debt. The salesman will never show you the total price, will never show you the real cost. Only then you'd notice that he's ripping you off. They get you in the financing, man.

You are blinding yourself to the true effect of this money. The 60k in debt is an amount that you won't have available to you to finance a home and other credit. Say you don't try and pay it off ASAP as I propose. At the end of 5 years you would have saved up about the difference in tuition, and could have 60k to 120k in the bank for a downpayment on a house, money for starting up your business, money to pay for an MBA, whatever. That is real money with real consequences. Don't fool yourself.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

aussie3b wrote:OP....TLS is great for a lot of things but perspective on this question is limited. The most sensible post I've seen here is from the Yale 1L...I'd take most other posts with a grain of salt. Anyone who pretends like this is an easy decision doesn't know what they are talking about. I am in a similar situation...trying to decide on a full darrow offer. The only perspectives I am interested in are from people who have wrestled with this decision and chosen one way or another. I'm particularly interested in hearing from HYS students/graduates and other T10 graduates/students who have been through the ringer with job searches and grades. Note that I'm not just a kid who got a full scholarship offer and is now in a giddy trance...I left I-banking to become a lawyer because I'm interested in becoming a lawyer..my sister is a Yale alum...and my dad is a law professor...and not a single person I've talked to has pretended like this is an easy choice.


I agree. It isn't an easy choice. I'm kind of pulling harder for the money end of it because people's instincts, to pay any amount for a modest increase in security, aren't necessarily a risk-neutral assessment of the actual costs and benefits. The Yalee's conclusion is that there does reach a point where it makes sense to take the money, which seems like something everyone should be able to agree on to me (very Obama-esque, as a "we don't all agree what should be done to fix it, but we do agree something should be done" statement). How much money is necessary to balance whatever additional risks you take by going to a lower-ranked school, and what those risks really are, if any, are up for some debate, though.

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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby cigrainger » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:36 pm

Two things that have been totally ignored: LRAP and IBR.

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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby sayan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:39 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
sayan wrote:
If you're going to raise self-serving hypotheticals to support your argument then there's really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.

The point I tried to raise was that 2.5k/year, regardless of how long you pay it over is miniscule given future salary earnings. If HLS can give you even a little bit of a leg-up in some areas (as already mentioned) then I think it's worth it.

It really is a subjective decision though given people's value of money and debt. Hence, the fundamental argument is premised in futility.


Being able to pay off debt in 2 years rather than 5 is a self-serving hypothetical? Timing means a lot. You miss out on a lot when opportunity knocks if you can't take it, because it may not knock again later when it is convenient to you.

This is some used-car selling BS, dude. Just because I can manage the payments doesn't mean it is good to be carrying around an extra 60k-120k in debt. The salesman will never show you the total price, will never show you the real cost. Only then you'd notice that he's ripping you off. They get you in the financing, man.

You are blinding yourself to the true effect of this money. The 60k in debt is an amount that you won't have available to you to finance a home and other credit. Say you don't try and pay it off ASAP as I propose. At the end of 5 years you would have saved up about the difference in tuition, and could have 60k to 120k in the bank for a downpayment on a house, money for starting up your business, money to pay for an MBA, whatever. That is real money with real consequences. Don't fool yourself.


You realize that LIPP at HLS will cover some of your debt if you take a low-paying government job, right? It may not cover everything depending on earnings but it will alleviate a significant burden.

And what I meant by the 2.5k/year was not a literal payment of 2.5k/year for 30 years but a simple debt amount divided over a career (of course it doesn't take into consideration either interest or present value of money). You may sacrifice a lot more in your first years to pay it off or you may just pay it off for 30 years depending on how you want to live with the debt.

Again, you like to think everything else is equal in regards to CLS vs. HLS except debt which is false. Clerkships and ultra-prestigious jobs in litigation, for example, are biased towards HLS grads over CLS grads. I concede that only the top of the HLS class will get such positions but I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take for what I consider a small cost over a lifetime of career earnings. Others may feel different hence the subjectivity of the decision.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:42 pm

cigrainger wrote:Two things that have been totally ignored: LRAP and IBR.


I've ignored low-paying PI work as one of the reasons generally. Most gov't jobs seem to pull you out of both of these. IBR requires a ten year commitment, and for you to put your loans into short-term payment plan for it to work. It isn't exactly about freedom to do whatever you want and go wherever you want, which has been the focus of the debate thus far. LRAP similarly requires a long-term commitment to pay your loans off. They certainly give you a couple more options, but not necessarily the most freedom.

Also, there is still a chance of unemployment even from Harvard. LRAP and IBR don't pay for that.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:45 pm

sayan wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
sayan wrote:
If you're going to raise self-serving hypotheticals to support your argument then there's really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.

The point I tried to raise was that 2.5k/year, regardless of how long you pay it over is miniscule given future salary earnings. If HLS can give you even a little bit of a leg-up in some areas (as already mentioned) then I think it's worth it.

It really is a subjective decision though given people's value of money and debt. Hence, the fundamental argument is premised in futility.


Being able to pay off debt in 2 years rather than 5 is a self-serving hypothetical? Timing means a lot. You miss out on a lot when opportunity knocks if you can't take it, because it may not knock again later when it is convenient to you.

This is some used-car selling BS, dude. Just because I can manage the payments doesn't mean it is good to be carrying around an extra 60k-120k in debt. The salesman will never show you the total price, will never show you the real cost. Only then you'd notice that he's ripping you off. They get you in the financing, man.

You are blinding yourself to the true effect of this money. The 60k in debt is an amount that you won't have available to you to finance a home and other credit. Say you don't try and pay it off ASAP as I propose. At the end of 5 years you would have saved up about the difference in tuition, and could have 60k to 120k in the bank for a downpayment on a house, money for starting up your business, money to pay for an MBA, whatever. That is real money with real consequences. Don't fool yourself.


You realize that LIPP at HLS will cover some of your debt if you take a low-paying government job, right? It may not cover everything depending on earnings but it will alleviate a significant burden.

And what I meant by the 2.5k/year was not a literal payment of 2.5k/year for 30 years but a simple debt amount divided over a career (of course it doesn't take into consideration either interest or present value of money). You may sacrifice a lot more in your first years to pay it off or you may just pay it off for 30 years depending on how you want to live with the debt.

Again, you like to think everything else is equal in regards to CLS vs. HLS except debt which is false. Clerkships and ultra-prestigious jobs in litigation, for example, are biased towards HLS grads over CLS grads. I concede that only the top of the HLS class will get such positions but I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take for what I consider a small cost over a lifetime of career earnings. Others may feel different hence the subjectivity of the decision.



Then there really isn't a point debating the value of money with you is there?

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sayan
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby sayan » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:47 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Then there really isn't a point debating the value of money with you is there?


Any sort of interest or PV calculation would require an actual determination of when debt is repaid... something that will be different for everyone.

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billyez
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby billyez » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:50 pm

aussie3b wrote:OP....TLS is great for a lot of things but perspective on this question is limited. The most sensible post I've seen here is from the Yale 1L...I'd take most other posts with a grain of salt. Anyone who pretends like this is an easy decision doesn't know what they are talking about. I am in a similar situation...trying to decide on a full darrow offer. The only perspectives I am interested in are from people who have wrestled with this decision and chosen one way or another. I'm particularly interested in hearing from HYS students/graduates and other T10 graduates/students who have been through the ringer with job searches and grades. Note that I'm not just a kid who got a full scholarship offer and is now in a giddy trance...I left I-banking to become a lawyer because I'm interested in becoming a lawyer..my sister is a Yale alum...and my dad is a law professor...and not a single person I've talked to has pretended like this is an easy choice.


Someone like you wouldn't really need TLS if this is the case. You have a sister who's a Yale alum and a Dad who's a Yale professor. Why would you bother asking questions of this importance on TLS if you already have people with a great deal of info already? Along with all the connections those people have...I don't see it.

Whether or not we've been in such a situation or not, doesn't preclude us from giving advice. The OP is wise enough to know this.

Robert398
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby Robert398 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:52 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
ali & ali wrote:I'm talking a potential half ride at Columbia or potential full ride at Duke. What would your goals be to make you choose CLS with money over Harvard, kurama?


You people are crazy.. take the full ride to Duke.. a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.


Unless you get the two birds in the bush

aussie3b
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby aussie3b » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:53 pm

sayan wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
sayan wrote:
If you're going to raise self-serving hypotheticals to support your argument then there's really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise.

The point I tried to raise was that 2.5k/year, regardless of how long you pay it over is miniscule given future salary earnings. If HLS can give you even a little bit of a leg-up in some areas (as already mentioned) then I think it's worth it.

It really is a subjective decision though given people's value of money and debt. Hence, the fundamental argument is premised in futility.


Being able to pay off debt in 2 years rather than 5 is a self-serving hypothetical? Timing means a lot. You miss out on a lot when opportunity knocks if you can't take it, because it may not knock again later when it is convenient to you.

This is some used-car selling BS, dude. Just because I can manage the payments doesn't mean it is good to be carrying around an extra 60k-120k in debt. The salesman will never show you the total price, will never show you the real cost. Only then you'd notice that he's ripping you off. They get you in the financing, man.

You are blinding yourself to the true effect of this money. The 60k in debt is an amount that you won't have available to you to finance a home and other credit. Say you don't try and pay it off ASAP as I propose. At the end of 5 years you would have saved up about the difference in tuition, and could have 60k to 120k in the bank for a downpayment on a house, money for starting up your business, money to pay for an MBA, whatever. That is real money with real consequences. Don't fool yourself.


You realize that LIPP at HLS will cover some of your debt if you take a low-paying government job, right? It may not cover everything depending on earnings but it will alleviate a significant burden.

And what I meant by the 2.5k/year was not a literal payment of 2.5k/year for 30 years but a simple debt amount divided over a career (of course it doesn't take into consideration either interest or present value of money). You may sacrifice a lot more in your first years to pay it off or you may just pay it off for 30 years depending on how you want to live with the debt.

Again, you like to think everything else is equal in regards to CLS vs. HLS except debt which is false. Clerkships and ultra-prestigious jobs in litigation, for example, are biased towards HLS grads over CLS grads. I concede that only the top of the HLS class will get such positions but I guess that's a risk I'm willing to take for what I consider a small cost over a lifetime of career earnings. Others may feel different hence the subjectivity of the decision.


LIPP/LRAP do make a difference...but so does the time value of money for people who are calling the cost of law school small. I may be in the minority (well me an brainliest) but-- IMO-- the cost of law school is not small by any stretch of the imagination. If you have loans that compare to most law school grads, you will be paying somewhere in the range of $2,000/$2500 a month in loan payments. That is not a small amount of money...even if you are incredibly frugal and manage to pay your loans off with your corporate law bonus in a few years. By all means...make a decision to go to HYS over money from a T10/14 school...I just encourage you to make an informed decision.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:59 pm

billyez wrote:
aussie3b wrote:OP....TLS is great for a lot of things but perspective on this question is limited. The most sensible post I've seen here is from the Yale 1L...I'd take most other posts with a grain of salt. Anyone who pretends like this is an easy decision doesn't know what they are talking about. I am in a similar situation...trying to decide on a full darrow offer. The only perspectives I am interested in are from people who have wrestled with this decision and chosen one way or another. I'm particularly interested in hearing from HYS students/graduates and other T10 graduates/students who have been through the ringer with job searches and grades. Note that I'm not just a kid who got a full scholarship offer and is now in a giddy trance...I left I-banking to become a lawyer because I'm interested in becoming a lawyer..my sister is a Yale alum...and my dad is a law professor...and not a single person I've talked to has pretended like this is an easy choice.


Someone like you wouldn't really need TLS if this is the case. You have a sister who's a Yale alum and a Dad who's a Yale professor. Why would you bother asking questions of this importance on TLS if you already have people with a great deal of info already? Along with all the connections those people have...I don't see it.

Whether or not we've been in such a situation or not, doesn't preclude us from giving advice. The OP is wise enough to know this.


Aussie should go to Yale, irrespective of the cost, just to avoid being labeled the freak in the family.

aussie3b
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby aussie3b » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:01 am

billyez wrote:
aussie3b wrote:OP....TLS is great for a lot of things but perspective on this question is limited. The most sensible post I've seen here is from the Yale 1L...I'd take most other posts with a grain of salt. Anyone who pretends like this is an easy decision doesn't know what they are talking about. I am in a similar situation...trying to decide on a full darrow offer. The only perspectives I am interested in are from people who have wrestled with this decision and chosen one way or another. I'm particularly interested in hearing from HYS students/graduates and other T10 graduates/students who have been through the ringer with job searches and grades. Note that I'm not just a kid who got a full scholarship offer and is now in a giddy trance...I left I-banking to become a lawyer because I'm interested in becoming a lawyer..my sister is a Yale alum...and my dad is a law professor...and not a single person I've talked to has pretended like this is an easy choice.


Someone like you wouldn't really need TLS if this is the case. You have a sister who's a Yale alum and a Dad who's a Yale professor. Why would you bother asking questions of this importance on TLS if you already have people with a great deal of info already? Along with all the connections those people have...I don't see it.

Whether or not we've been in such a situation or not, doesn't preclude us from giving advice. The OP is wise enough to know this.


Simply false...My father is not a Yale Prof...never said he was...and I did not ask this question on TLS and I did not say that being a TLS poster precluded you or anyone else from offering your opinion. But I dont want to get stuck in the weeds with you arguing about the details of my post. I was giving the OP some perspective. Knowing what I know and having had the conversations I have had, I simply suggested to OP that he/she give little weight to comments on here that suggested or implied this was any easy choice. Good luck with the decision OP. Nuff said.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Harvard or a Lower-Ranked School with $$

Postby The Brainalist » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:07 am

aussie3b wrote:
billyez wrote:
Someone like you wouldn't really need TLS if this is the case. You have a sister who's a Yale alum and a Dad who's a Yale professor. Why would you bother asking questions of this importance on TLS if you already have people with a great deal of info already? Along with all the connections those people have...I don't see it.

Whether or not we've been in such a situation or not, doesn't preclude us from giving advice. The OP is wise enough to know this.


Simply false...My father is not a Yale Prof...never said he was...and I did not ask this question on TLS and I did not say that being a TLS poster precluded you or anyone else from offering your opinion. But I dont want to get stuck in the weeds with you arguing about the details of my post. I was giving the OP some perspective. Knowing what I know and having had the conversations I have had, I simply suggested to OP that he/she give little weight to comments on here that suggested or implied this was any easy choice. Good luck with the decision OP. Nuff said.


So, what you are saying is, your mom is a Yale professor and your gerbal, "Smitty," also graduated from Yale? Why the heck are you here asking us all kinds of nonsense then?




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