Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
Whatisthis
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Whatisthis » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:07 pm

FWIW, I made it into Chicago with worse stats and I went to a T2 state undergrad (I did apply ED though). I bet you'll get into all three schools and probably get some money out of one of them.

I am not sure how applying late will affect your cycle, but I am still confident you'll end up somewhere nice.

Good Luck!

User avatar
Anastasia Dee Dualla
Posts: 1165
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:03 am

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Anastasia Dee Dualla » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:09 pm

.
Last edited by Anastasia Dee Dualla on Sun May 10, 2015 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby kurama20 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:11 pm

Yeah, this sort of surprises me. Any current UChi students (DD? doyle?) want to weigh in?[/quote]
I've talked about it (briefly) with Dres, and she has not had any similar experiences. My impression was that no school cares more about capital-A "Academics" as UChi. Being a generally cool person with some well-rounded achievements counts far less there than at other schools, and by contrast high grades from a respected undergrad program counts more.
[/quote]

That really turns me off. People make the Ugrad choice at 17/18--that really shouldn't be held against them. It also hurts minorities, which may partially explain Chicago's pathetically low number of Black males.


Renzo wrote:Ok, fine. You tell me, who's a bigger anti-NYU troll than you?


The fact that you consider my stance about NYU as "anti NYU" says a lot. Here is what I say/have said about NYU.

1. It is a very strong school, but it's not any stronger than Mich, UVA, or Boalt for someone who doesn't have NYC as their main focus. The legal field doesn't look at NYU as being any different than MBVP outside of NYC.
2. Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet--only in one facet (NYC biglaw)--making it a great school but no better than MBVP.
3. This is actually reflected in the holy grail of US News. NYU has NEVER had a higher lawyer/judge score than CC and it was actually tied with Duke, Cornell, and GULC in assessment score in 2006. From 2006 onwards it has NEVER been higher than UVA in lawyer/judge scores and was actually lower in 06 and another year since then. It has also NEVER been higher than Michigan in LJ scores and has only been higher than Boalt twice in that period.
4. Awesome school, but hyped up to a level on TLS that is a bit insane (ie people answering NYU v. Michigan questions for people not interested in NYC with things like "OMG NYU is a top 5! You won't have to be top 20 percent at a top 5 to get great DC or Cali biglaw like you will at Michigan! "
Last edited by kurama20 on Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
scribelaw
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby scribelaw » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:11 pm

Whatisthis wrote:FWIW, I made it into Chicago with worse stats and I went to a T2 state undergrad (I did apply ED though). I bet you'll get into all three schools and probably get some money out of one of them.

I am not sure how applying late will affect your cycle, but I am still confident you'll end up somewhere nice.

Good Luck!


I applied last week. So a little late, but it was a necessity, unfortunately. I was a December retaker.

Can you comment on the above comments, about UChi folks looking down with disdain on those of us from lesser UGs?

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Renzo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:17 pm

kurama20 wrote: The fact that you consider my stance about NYU as "anti NYU" says a lot. Here is what I say/have said about NYU.

1. It is a very strong school, but it's not any stronger than Mich, UVA, or Boalt for someone who doesn't have NYC as their main focus. The legal field doesn't look at NYU as being any different than MBVP outside of NYC.
2. Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet--only in one facet (NYC biglaw)--making it a great school but no better than MBVP.
3. This is actually reflected in the holy grail of US News. NYU has NEVER had a higher lawyer/judge score than CC and it was actually tied with Duke, Cornell, and GULC in assessment score in 2006. From 2006 onwards it has NEVER been higher than UVA in lawyer/judge scores and was actually lower in 06 and another year since then. It has also NEVER been higher than Michigan in LJ scores and has only been higher than Boalt twice in that period.
4. Awesome school, but hyped up to a level on TLS that is a bit insane (ie people answering NYU v. Michigan questions for people not interested in NYC with things like "OMG NYU is a top 5! You won't have to be top 20 percent at a top 5 to get great DC or Cali biglaw like you will at Michigan! "

Well, that about settles that.

User avatar
Whatisthis
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:55 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Whatisthis » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:18 pm

scribelaw wrote:
Whatisthis wrote:FWIW, I made it into Chicago with worse stats and I went to a T2 state undergrad (I did apply ED though). I bet you'll get into all three schools and probably get some money out of one of them.

I am not sure how applying late will affect your cycle, but I am still confident you'll end up somewhere nice.

Good Luck!


I applied last week. So a little late, but it was a necessity, unfortunately. I was a December retaker.

Can you comment on the above comments, about UChi folks looking down with disdain on those of us from lesser UGs?




I am actually a 0L, so I can’t really comment on the school, but I’ve never heard of folks being ridiculed for the undergrad they attended. I hope that was an isolated incident.


Renzo, could you possibly explain what exactly happened?

Was it a single incident, a comment by one professor/student, or just a general vibe you got from the school?

I am really excited about attending Chicago, but I find this to be really unattractive.

User avatar
Dead Ringer
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Dead Ringer » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:19 pm

scribelaw wrote:I went to a small private UG -- not a TTT or anything (it's listed as Tier 1 in US News) but also far from prestigious. Also, my major wasn't a difficult major and, correspondingly, the classes might appear soft, if adcomms dig into transcripts and analyze courseloads.

I'm wondering if going to an uninspiring UG will hurt my chances in the T-6, particularly Harvard (slim chances anyway, I realize), Columbia, NYU and Chicago. I've heard Chicago puts an emphasis on quality of UG; don't know if this is true.

Stats are 3.73 and 173 (with a prior score). I also have 5+ years high-quality WE.

Thanks!


Numbers twin and I am at Chicago with a scholarship. I promise my UG was worse than yours.

User avatar
Helmholtz
Posts: 4394
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:48 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:20 pm

Dead Ringer wrote:Numbers twin and I am at Chicago with a scholarship. I promise my UG was worse than yours.


Ah, a current UChiLS student. Want to weigh in on any possible elitism having to do w/UG institutions?

User avatar
booboo
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:39 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby booboo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:21 pm

I went to an information session held by Chicago, Michigan, and Penn recently. It was obvious in all three admissions responses to the hypothetical cases they created for the audience (the attendees) that they looked quite favorably to the HYP hypo student with a very low GPA (sub 3.5) as compared to the student that went to a state school with a markedly higher GPA (>3.7). I will contribute this information, though. From what I saw in distribution of LSAT scores for the HYP and state school candidates, the HYP (which was confirmed as the norm for these institutions) had a very large concentration of scorers in 160, 170 ranges (unsurprisingly), while for the state school it appeared it followed similarly to LSAT curve the LSAC wants to maintain. As kurama suggested, looking through LSN, it would seem a 3.65-3.7 from a T10 UG will face similar success compared to a <T20 student with a GPA of 3.8, LSAT scores equal.

User avatar
booboo
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:39 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby booboo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:23 pm

Dead Ringer wrote:
scribelaw wrote:I went to a small private UG -- not a TTT or anything (it's listed as Tier 1 in US News) but also far from prestigious. Also, my major wasn't a difficult major and, correspondingly, the classes might appear soft, if adcomms dig into transcripts and analyze courseloads.

I'm wondering if going to an uninspiring UG will hurt my chances in the T-6, particularly Harvard (slim chances anyway, I realize), Columbia, NYU and Chicago. I've heard Chicago puts an emphasis on quality of UG; don't know if this is true.

Stats are 3.73 and 173 (with a prior score). I also have 5+ years high-quality WE.

Thanks!


Numbers twin and I am at Chicago with a scholarship. I promise my UG was worse than yours.


I would also take into account date of application. I think Chicago is more forgiving of UG "quality" to earlier applicants. Care to say which month you submitted Dead Ringer? :).

User avatar
Dignan
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:52 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Dignan » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:27 pm

kurama20 wrote:1. It is a very strong school, but it's not any stronger than Mich, UVA, or Boalt for someone who doesn't have NYC as their main focus. The legal field doesn't look at NYU as being any different than MBVP outside of NYC.
2. Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet--only in one facet (NYC biglaw)--making it a great school but no better than MBVP.
3. This is actually reflected in the holy grail of US News. NYU has NEVER had a higher lawyer/judge score than CC and it was actually tied with Duke, Cornell, and GULC in assessment score in 2006. From 2006 onwards it has NEVER been higher than UVA in lawyer/judge scores and was actually lower in 06 and another year since then. It has also NEVER been higher than Michigan in LJ scores and has only been higher than Boalt twice in that period.
4. Awesome school, but hyped up to a level on TLS that is a bit insane (ie people answering NYU v. Michigan questions for people not interested in NYC with things like "OMG NYU is a top 5! You won't have to be top 20 percent at a top 5 to get great DC or Cali biglaw like you will at Michigan! "

I agree with most of your analysis, but I do take issue with part of one point: "Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet..."

Would you really say that Columbia and Chicago outdo those other schools in every facet? Just to take one example, would you really suggest that someone interested in IP law choose Chicago over Berkeley? When you're talking about the HYS level, you're dealing with schools that do almost everything better than everyone else. That's what makes them the top of the top. But once you're down to the level of Columbia and Chicago, I think you have to start qualifying based on specialized areas of law.

I actually agree with you that both Chicago and Columbia are a tick ahead of NYU with respect to overall reputation, but I can't quite agree that CC trump NMBVP in every facet.

User avatar
superserial
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:57 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby superserial » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:29 pm

I love fights over which T4-14 is the bestest!

User avatar
booboo
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:39 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby booboo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:30 pm

superserial wrote:I love fights over which T4-14 is the bestest!


I am sure we know what your vote is. :).

marburger06
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:42 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby marburger06 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:36 pm

I don't get where this whole thing about how UChicago cares more than other schools about quality of undergrad...I'm a current student, and my UG wasn't THAT great (around 50 in USNews), AND my stats were extremely borederline. I also know more than two dozen people who went to non-elite public schools. And I haven't seen anyone display a negative attitude towards people from non-elite UGs; the only ridicule I've witnessed has been sparked by sports rivalries...

User avatar
scribelaw
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby scribelaw » Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:41 pm

marburger06 wrote:I don't get where this whole thing about how UChicago cares more than other schools about quality of undergrad...I'm a current student, and my UG wasn't THAT great (around 50 in USNews), AND my stats were extremely borederline. I also know more than two dozen people who went to non-elite public schools. And I haven't seen anyone display a negative attitude towards people from non-elite UGs; the only ridicule I've witnessed has been sparked by sports rivalries...


Comforting to hear..

User avatar
Dead Ringer
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 2:07 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Dead Ringer » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:43 am

Helmholtz wrote:
Dead Ringer wrote:Numbers twin and I am at Chicago with a scholarship. I promise my UG was worse than yours.


Ah, a current UChiLS student. Want to weigh in on any possible elitism having to do w/UG institutions?


Like Marburger says, admissions doesn't seem to care. If they do, it isn't enough for anyone at ground level to notice a trend. Perhaps some geek around here will compile stats using the facebooks of each t-6 school.

User avatar
kurama20
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby kurama20 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:54 am

Renzo wrote:
kurama20 wrote: The fact that you consider my stance about NYU as "anti NYU" says a lot. Here is what I say/have said about NYU.

1. It is a very strong school, but it's not any stronger than Mich, UVA, or Boalt for someone who doesn't have NYC as their main focus. The legal field doesn't look at NYU as being any different than MBVP outside of NYC.
2. Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet--only in one facet (NYC biglaw)--making it a great school but no better than MBVP.
3. This is actually reflected in the holy grail of US News. NYU has NEVER had a higher lawyer/judge score than CC and it was actually tied with Duke, Cornell, and GULC in assessment score in 2006. From 2006 onwards it has NEVER been higher than UVA in lawyer/judge scores and was actually lower in 06 and another year since then. It has also NEVER been higher than Michigan in LJ scores and has only been higher than Boalt twice in that period.
4. Awesome school, but hyped up to a level on TLS that is a bit insane (ie people answering NYU v. Michigan questions for people not interested in NYC with things like "OMG NYU is a top 5! You won't have to be top 20 percent at a top 5 to get great DC or Cali biglaw like you will at Michigan! "

Well, that about settles that.


That's what I mean; unless someone says that NYU is better than every school but HYS and CC then people who like them call it "trolling" because they consider the school better than every non HYS CC school (emphasis on they).

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:27 am

kurama20 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
kurama20 wrote: The fact that you consider my stance about NYU as "anti NYU" says a lot. Here is what I say/have said about NYU.

1. It is a very strong school, but it's not any stronger than Mich, UVA, or Boalt for someone who doesn't have NYC as their main focus. The legal field doesn't look at NYU as being any different than MBVP outside of NYC.
2. Unlike CC it doesn't outdo MBVP in every facet--only in one facet (NYC biglaw)--making it a great school but no better than MBVP.
3. This is actually reflected in the holy grail of US News. NYU has NEVER had a higher lawyer/judge score than CC and it was actually tied with Duke, Cornell, and GULC in assessment score in 2006. From 2006 onwards it has NEVER been higher than UVA in lawyer/judge scores and was actually lower in 06 and another year since then. It has also NEVER been higher than Michigan in LJ scores and has only been higher than Boalt twice in that period.
4. Awesome school, but hyped up to a level on TLS that is a bit insane (ie people answering NYU v. Michigan questions for people not interested in NYC with things like "OMG NYU is a top 5! You won't have to be top 20 percent at a top 5 to get great DC or Cali biglaw like you will at Michigan! "

Well, that about settles that.


That's what I mean; unless someone says that NYU is better than every school but HYS and CC then people who like them call it "trolling" because they consider the school better than every non HYS CC school (emphasis on they).


oh is THAT what the italics were for? lol just playing haha :P

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby englawyer » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:04 am

Stanford seems to be strongly biased towards T10 - T20 undergrads. it looks like every LSN admit is a top school, except for one military:

http://stanford.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats

it seems like they want 170/3.9/elite u-grad over 175/3.9/mediocre ugrad

User avatar
monkeygirl
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby monkeygirl » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:04 am

FWIW, I got into NYU with worse numbers than you have, and my undergrad is far from elite. Several of my classmates have been accepted into Columbia, HLS, and SLS. You just have to cast a wide net, including HYS, and see who takes you. The cost of the apps is far less than the cost of NOT sending them.

I think that your life and work experience will be a tremendous boost, here. The only problem you may have is that some of the top schools (I forget which ones, sorry), still use an average of your LSAT scores. You said that you were a December retake--if your scores are drastically different, you may consider writing an addendum about that.

Good luck on your cycle-I wish you the best!!

User avatar
scribelaw
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby scribelaw » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:18 am

monkeygirl wrote:FWIW, I got into NYU with worse numbers than you have, and my undergrad is far from elite. Several of my classmates have been accepted into Columbia, HLS, and SLS. You just have to cast a wide net, including HYS, and see who takes you. The cost of the apps is far less than the cost of NOT sending them.

I think that your life and work experience will be a tremendous boost, here. The only problem you may have is that some of the top schools (I forget which ones, sorry), still use an average of your LSAT scores. You said that you were a December retake--if your scores are drastically different, you may consider writing an addendum about that.

Good luck on your cycle-I wish you the best!!


NYU says they average. But I had a pretty big jump, almost 10 points -- I'm hoping that will be enough not to average. Also, I wrote a short, non-whiny (I hope) addendum accounting for my first score.

User avatar
Unitas
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Unitas » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:20 am

scribelaw wrote:
monkeygirl wrote:FWIW, I got into NYU with worse numbers than you have, and my undergrad is far from elite. Several of my classmates have been accepted into Columbia, HLS, and SLS. You just have to cast a wide net, including HYS, and see who takes you. The cost of the apps is far less than the cost of NOT sending them.

I think that your life and work experience will be a tremendous boost, here. The only problem you may have is that some of the top schools (I forget which ones, sorry), still use an average of your LSAT scores. You said that you were a December retake--if your scores are drastically different, you may consider writing an addendum about that.

Good luck on your cycle-I wish you the best!!


NYU says they average. But I had a pretty big jump, almost 10 points -- I'm hoping that will be enough not to average. Also, I wrote a short, non-whiny (I hope) addendum accounting for my first score.


IIRC NYU said they only average with less than a 6 point jump, so a 10 point jump they would take the highest.

User avatar
badfish
Posts: 1160
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:53 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby badfish » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:27 am

It shouldn't matter. I had a similar undergrad and similar stats. I was accepted outright into Chicago and NYU and withdrew from CLS after being wait-listed and I suspect I would have gotten in there as well.

I chose NYU.

User avatar
scribelaw
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby scribelaw » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:35 am

badfish wrote:It shouldn't matter. I had a similar undergrad and similar stats. I was accepted outright into Chicago and NYU and withdrew from CLS after being wait-listed and I suspect I would have gotten in there as well.

I chose NYU.


May I ask, just curious -- why NYU over U-Chi?

Renzo
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:23 am

Re: Non-elite UG: a T-6 killer?

Postby Renzo » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:39 pm

badfish wrote:It shouldn't matter. I had a similar undergrad and similar stats. I was accepted outright into Chicago and NYU and withdrew from CLS after being wait-listed and I suspect I would have gotten in there as well.

I chose NYU.

I did the same, and as previously mentioned my undergrad was the no-name commuter-campus of a state school.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 7 guests