Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

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Bill James
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Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:55 pm

I'm very concerned about the way things are going right now in the legal profession. Law is in the gutter and it has been this way for a decade now. I don't know what to think. Like most of you on here, I have a piece of shit degree, so if I don't go to law school, I have no where else to go. I've always wanted to go to law school, but with job prospects the way they are, combined with tuition costs, I'm starting to think that maybe this isn't the best investment. Is anyone else getting cold feet?

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biggamejames
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby biggamejames » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:56 pm

It might not be a good investment, but it's fun!

flcath
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby flcath » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:04 pm

Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

Bill James
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:08 pm

flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?



I've thought about that, but then you have an entirely new problem: instead of drowning in debt, you have even worse prospects than you would at a higher ranked school.

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IAFG
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:09 pm

flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

lol ok. yeah def go headlong into law school because you don't want to work an entry-level job. that's a super plan.

Bill James
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:12 pm

IAFG wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

lol ok. yeah def go headlong into law school because you don't want to work an entry-level job. that's a super plan.



This is exactly why everyone and their brother is applying to law school.

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IAFG
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:13 pm

Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

lol ok. yeah def go headlong into law school because you don't want to work an entry-level job. that's a super plan.



This is exactly why everyone and their brother is applying to law school.

and then they become entry-level associates and bitch about how evil biglaw is.

avacado111
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby avacado111 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:17 pm

IAFG wrote:
Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

lol ok. yeah def go headlong into law school because you don't want to work an entry-level job. that's a super plan.



This is exactly why everyone and their brother is applying to law school.

and then they become entry-level associates and bitch about how evil biglaw is.


biglaw is not evil. You should have a picture of biglaw before you actually commit.

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chadwick218
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby chadwick218 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:21 pm

I've had regrets ... in 2.5 more years, I will find myself $150k in debt, struggling to find a legal job, and having left a job that paid a little over $100k ... of course I am having regrets, but at this point there is no turning back!

wired
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby wired » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:24 pm

Bill James wrote:Law is in the gutter and it has been this way for a decade now.



Source? To my understanding, law was at its peak during 2005-2007.

flcath
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby flcath » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:25 pm

IAFG wrote:
Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?

lol ok. yeah def go headlong into law school because you don't want to work an entry-level job. that's a super plan.



This is exactly why everyone and their brother is applying to law school.

and then they become entry-level associates and bitch about how evil biglaw is.

Most professions have some form of TLS analogue (i.e., a message board for both prospective entrants into the field and current practitioners). Those I have seen typically have the same pessimistic outlooks for the future that TLS has for law. My parents talk every time I see them about how happy they are that they aren't coming out of med school today.

The truth is that--for years prior to ITE--the legal sector wasn't growing as fast as the rest of the economy (under performing by several percent points according to WSJ, if I recall), but it was still growing just as well as most non-healthcare, non-tech-related fields. There also is little evidence to indicate that ITE has hit the legal sector harder than others, though there is rampant speculation (among real professionals, not just TLSers) that it's impact will last longer on us.

champ33
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby champ33 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:27 pm

The dread for me is kind of compounded by my applying directly out of undergraduate. I get the feeling that the three years of law school and the years immediately afterward carry with them little room to just explore, develop dreams or interests, whatever you want to call it, and so the time before law school or in place of it may be my only chance to live that way. For this reason I may put it all off a year or two, but if I do go this year, I'm going to make sure I'm not going into tons of debt by going somewhere like Rutgers or St. John's, or somewhere I get a big scholarship, to kind of reduce the pressure and dread. Good luck with your decision.

the lantern
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby the lantern » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:33 pm

I'm having serious, serious second thoughts about law school. I'm scared of going into debt and not being able to get a job. Don't get me wrong, I'm a risk-taker much more than I am a risk-averse person, but I am just having problems justifying the risk/reward cost/benefit situation presented here. Either way, I'm going to have to take out massive loans, and the best case scenario is I get a job that lets me pay those massive loans off. I want to be a lawyer, but I don't want to drown in debt my entire life. I've spent the last 8 years doing that, so I would really like to avoid debt at all costs. Having said that, I am not okay with attending a TTT for free/cheap because I am not okay with the job prospects for those graduates. I am researching second degree BSN programs (get a second bachelors in nursing in 15 months). My mom is a nurse and I have a bunch of friends who are nurses.. They start out at 50+k a year and there are jobs everywhere in the country. I am really having second thoughts and as of right now, I would say that I have one foot out of the law school door. Am I crazy?

edit: I would also like to throw in the opportunity costs of attending school make even a free ride not worth it. I already have a decent job, and I can get a better one. BTW this job isn't something one would do for their whole life, and it might actually be getting downsized or outsourced soon, so that is why I'm looking for something to augment my liberal arts degree.
Last edited by the lantern on Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flcath
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby flcath » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:33 pm

Bill James wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?



I've thought about that, but then you have an entirely new problem: instead of drowning in debt, you have even worse prospects than you would at a higher ranked school.

Well yeah, duh. But if you're *all that* debt-averse, it's obviously the safer option in that respect. It doesn't take a Biglaw salary to pay off the paltry CoL debt I'd incur at Alabama, though it'd obviously hamper my odds at landing Biglaw if I wanted it.

Law seems like it's doing worse than other places because--unlike someone with a worthless shit (poli sci, etc.) bachelor's degree--JD grads expect to land a job immediately. Not that that's an unreasonable or unfair expectation, but obviously the expectations themselves impose a more pessimistic feel to the situation.

Bill James
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:51 pm

IAFG wrote:
Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:
flcath wrote:

This is exactly why everyone and their brother is applying to law school.

and then they become entry-level associates and bitch about how evil biglaw is.

Most professions have some form of TLS analogue (i.e., a message board for both prospective entrants into the field and current practitioners). Those I have seen typically have the same pessimistic outlooks for the future that TLS has for law. My parents talk every time I see them about how happy they are that they aren't coming out of med school today.

The truth is that--for years prior to ITE--the legal sector wasn't growing as fast as the rest of the economy (under performing by several percent points according to WSJ, if I recall), but it was still growing just as well as most non-healthcare, non-tech-related fields. There also is little evidence to indicate that ITE has hit the legal sector harder than others, though there is rampant speculation (among real professionals, not just TLSers) that it's impact will last longer on us.


I seriously doubt that there is any medicine related message board that even compares to jdunderground.com.

flcath
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby flcath » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:00 pm

Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Bill James wrote:
IAFG wrote:and then they become entry-level associates and bitch about how evil biglaw is.

Most professions have some form of TLS analogue (i.e., a message board for both prospective entrants into the field and current practitioners). Those I have seen typically have the same pessimistic outlooks for the future that TLS has for law. My parents talk every time I see them about how happy they are that they aren't coming out of med school today.

The truth is that--for years prior to ITE--the legal sector wasn't growing as fast as the rest of the economy (under performing by several percent points according to WSJ, if I recall), but it was still growing just as well as most non-healthcare, non-tech-related fields. There also is little evidence to indicate that ITE has hit the legal sector harder than others, though there is rampant speculation (among real professionals, not just TLSers) that it's impact will last longer on us.


I seriously doubt that there is any medicine related message board that even compares to jdunderground.com.


studentdoctor.net (SDN)

Bear in mind that the legal field pioneered the art of using internet message boards to discuss/influence salary information among firms, and there's still far greater transparency in law--be it LS admissions stats, salary info, placement, whatever--than medicine. Basically, lawyers have a proud and distinguished history of bitching online.

Still, I will certainly concede that physicians outperform us in job-security (~100%), if not earnings potential... the point is moot anyway, since the qualifications for MS are so incomparably higher than those for LS: it's like a janitor doubting his profession because i-banking looks so much more attractive.

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whuts4lunch
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby whuts4lunch » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:07 pm

Bill James wrote:
flcath wrote:Nah. All jobs are in the tank right now, except healthcare, but I'm guessing you didn't just so happen to take a year of chem, orgo, physics, bio, biochem, and calculus while earning your shit major? No? So med school's out.

Of course, you don't go deep into debt being a waiter or an accounts manager, but who the fuck wants to do that shit? And if you're all that worried, why not go to a lower-ranked school where you get a full-ride?



I've thought about that, but then you have an entirely new problem: instead of drowning in debt, you have even worse prospects than you would at a higher ranked school.


Not necessarily. Your class rank is likely to be higher at a lower ranked school, which could offset the effect of having attended a lower ranked school.

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j2d3
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby j2d3 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:09 pm

chadwick218 wrote:I've had regrets ... in 2.5 more years, I will find myself $150k in debt, struggling to find a legal job, and having left a job that paid a little over $100k ... of course I am having regrets, but at this point there is no turning back!


This is what I'm thinking of doing. Could be dumb. I can cancel the whole idea and keep my job right up until around July, though, so I'm going to keep on going as if law school is the right choice until then.

Bill James
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:12 pm

chadwick218 wrote:I've had regrets ... in 2.5 more years, I will find myself $150k in debt, struggling to find a legal job, and having left a job that paid a little over $100k ... of course I am having regrets, but at this point there is no turning back!



You were making over 100k and left? You must really want to be a lawyer or that job must have really sucked.

legends159
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby legends159 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:14 pm

If you don't have a family or plan on having a family anytime soon you can survive off of very little. If going to law school and being a lawyer is a job that will make you happy then you should pursue it if there aren't any pressing financial issues.

People spend over 40% of their waking lives at their jobs. Might as well be something fulfilling

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Trifles
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Trifles » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:19 pm

chadwick218 wrote:I've had regrets ... in 2.5 more years, I will find myself $150k in debt, struggling to find a legal job, and having left a job that paid a little over $100k ... of course I am having regrets, but at this point there is no turning back!


It is not too late to turn back. If you really think law school is a bad investment, then cut your losses now. Don't let your pride hold you back.

flcath
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby flcath » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:25 pm

I wish the ABA would prune back some of these TTTs (I mean the *real* TTTs), or at the very least quit accrediting new ones. Can anyone provide a link to the ABA's defense of why they let these schools exist (I'm sure there is one), unlike the AMA/AAMC, who apparently took supply-and-demand 101?

Bill James
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Bill James » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:28 pm

flcath wrote:I wish the ABA would prune back some of these TTTs (I mean the *real* TTTs), or at the very least quit accrediting new ones. Can anyone provide a link to the ABA's defense of why they let these schools exist (I'm sure there is one), unlike the AMA/AAMC, who apparently took supply-and-demand 101?



TITCR

There is no reason why there should be 200 ABA approved law schools. Also, it should be considered fraud that some of these schools intentionally mislead perspective applicants by fudging their employment/salary statistics.

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Trifles
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby Trifles » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:28 pm

flcath wrote:I wish the ABA would prune back some of these TTTs (I mean the *real* TTTs), or at the very least quit accrediting new ones. Can anyone provide a link to the ABA's defense of why they let these schools exist (I'm sure there is one), unlike the AMA/AAMC, who apparently took supply-and-demand 101?


Why should they artificially limit the amount of new lawyers? So new graduates can earn more then they are really worth in an open market at the expense of the general public?

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biggamejames
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Re: Am I the only that's having second thoughts?

Postby biggamejames » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:29 pm

Trifles wrote:
flcath wrote:I wish the ABA would prune back some of these TTTs (I mean the *real* TTTs), or at the very least quit accrediting new ones. Can anyone provide a link to the ABA's defense of why they let these schools exist (I'm sure there is one), unlike the AMA/AAMC, who apparently took supply-and-demand 101?


Why should they artificially limit the amount of new lawyers? So new graduates can earn more then they are really worth in an open market at the expense of the general public?

Yeah, seriously. The ABA isn't supposed to be a full-on cartel.




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