Need personal application advice

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:35 pm

Kakarot wrote:
karlieann wrote:
reese23 wrote:i dont think that matters. even if you got another 153, i dont think you'd be looking at any schools other than cooley, ok city, etc.

and what the previous poster said is bs. you can submit anything u want w/ ur app. send in a second bachelors w/ a killer 3.8 plus gpa over 2 years coursework at a major university and an amazing letter explaining how serious u have become w/ ur studies as evident w/ ur knew awesome gpa.

then rock the lsat and get at least a 160 or above. then ur looking at a top-100 school. second bachelors with a 3.8 plus gpa and a 160 lsat.


Right--I know any and all school info can be, and is, reported. Thanks a lot for the pointers.


Ok, by reported I meant reported to US news and the ABA and it is NOT reported. I didn't mean you can't submit it.

You have almost no chance right now except at the bottom five or so schools. Take in Feb and get 165+ and you have a shot at getting into a lot of T3 schools and high T4.


Has a shot at some T1s actually, with a 165.

09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:39 pm

Kakarot wrote:
reese23 wrote:dont listen to kak. he is a douche. no clue what he is rambling about.

get a 2nd bachelors with a 3.8 plus, rock a 160 lsat and apply to top-100 schools like gonzaga, loyola in la, seattle u, tulane, pepp, etc.

you can do it. bottom line is this - alot of people start law school in their 30's. you have ur whole life to practice. dont go to a crappy law school. it is a waste of time and money.




WTF... The only GPA that matters is your LSDAS cumulative GPA, which includes all coursework prior to your first Bachelors degree. This is the number reported to both the bar and thus USNews. She can take all her original classes over now with a 4.0 and it won't change that lsdas GPA. How hard is that to understand?

Yes you have to turn in all transcripts and an upward grade trend after the fact may look ok, but it is irrelevant to most schools. A 2.1 GPA after your first degree will always stay a 2.1 GPA for reporting. Which will turn off most, if not all, T1 and T2 schools. However you can redo the LSAT like I and other posters have said to try and bring yourself way above T3 and T4's LSAT median so you can be a traditional splitter.

Redoing coursework or getting another bachelors is the stupidest thing you could do....

Edit: I quoted wrong...


I agree with the first half, that 2.1 ain't changing, but 2.1 doesn't make T1 impossible. Hell a 2.1 got into Northwestern this year.

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karlieann
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby karlieann » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:45 pm

Granted, these percentages should be taken with a grain of salt, but for example: Albany in New York gives a 25-50 percent chance of acceptance with a 2.1 and 153 with an 86.3 percent bar passage rate. 97 percent of their students find a job within 9 months of graduation. I don't see how applying to a school like Albany is a waste of my time or money, especially considering it will cost me $12. As another example, Missouri is ranked 65 and lists a 5-20 percent chance of acceptance, based on last year's entering class. Sure, it's not likely, but a 1 in 10 chance is still worth applying.

I fully realize I'm well below the averages at most schools and that my chances are slim. But you can't win if you don't play and in the event I DON'T get in anywhere, then sure, retake the test. Hell, even retake it in Feb and put off some of my applications. But I see no reason to not even try.

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karlieann
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby karlieann » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:48 pm

ccs1702 wrote:Even in the highly unlikely event that you manage to get a new bachelor's degree, submit only that transcript to LSAC, get into law school based on a fraudulent LSDAS report and then graduate first in your class, you will never get through the Bar review. You will have wasted 5+ years of your life and be drowning in debt. The only option for you is to retake the LSAT.


How is gaining another BA highly unlikely? And obviously I'm not going to submit a fraudulent LSDAS report. I may have a low GPA but I'm not an idiot.

09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:51 pm

karlieann wrote:Granted, these percentages should be taken with a grain of salt, but for example: Albany in New York gives a 25-50 percent chance of acceptance with a 2.1 and 153 with an 86.3 percent bar passage rate. 97 percent of their students find a job within 9 months of graduation. I don't see how applying to a school like Albany is a waste of my time or money, especially considering it will cost me $12. As another example, Missouri is ranked 65 and lists a 5-20 percent chance of acceptance, based on last year's entering class. Sure, it's not likely, but a 1 in 10 chance is still worth applying.

I fully realize I'm well below the averages at most schools and that my chances are slim. But you can't win if you don't play and in the event I DON'T get in anywhere, then sure, retake the test. Hell, even retake it in Feb and put off some of my applications. But I see no reason to not even try.


If you want to apply to Missouri and Albany and a few other T2's go ahead. Maybe you will get in. But when you don't retake the LSAT in September 2010.

Do not apply to a bunch of T4's just to get in somewhere. It isn't worth it.

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karlieann
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby karlieann » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:58 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
karlieann wrote:Granted, these percentages should be taken with a grain of salt, but for example: Albany in New York gives a 25-50 percent chance of acceptance with a 2.1 and 153 with an 86.3 percent bar passage rate. 97 percent of their students find a job within 9 months of graduation. I don't see how applying to a school like Albany is a waste of my time or money, especially considering it will cost me $12. As another example, Missouri is ranked 65 and lists a 5-20 percent chance of acceptance, based on last year's entering class. Sure, it's not likely, but a 1 in 10 chance is still worth applying.

I fully realize I'm well below the averages at most schools and that my chances are slim. But you can't win if you don't play and in the event I DON'T get in anywhere, then sure, retake the test. Hell, even retake it in Feb and put off some of my applications. But I see no reason to not even try.


If you want to apply to Missouri and Albany and a few other T2's go ahead. Maybe you will get in. But when you don't retake the LSAT in September 2010.

Do not apply to a bunch of T4's just to get in somewhere. It isn't worth it.



The University of Missiouri is a T1 school according to the 2009 US News rankings.

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Zapatero
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Zapatero » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:01 am

karlieann wrote:
ccs1702 wrote:Even in the highly unlikely event that you manage to get a new bachelor's degree, submit only that transcript to LSAC, get into law school based on a fraudulent LSDAS report and then graduate first in your class, you will never get through the Bar review. You will have wasted 5+ years of your life and be drowning in debt. The only option for you is to retake the LSAT.


How is gaining another BA highly unlikely? And obviously I'm not going to submit a fraudulent LSDAS report. I may have a low GPA but I'm not an idiot.


It's not.

That was more of a response to another poster.

Edit for clarity

09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:06 am

karlieann wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
karlieann wrote:Granted, these percentages should be taken with a grain of salt, but for example: Albany in New York gives a 25-50 percent chance of acceptance with a 2.1 and 153 with an 86.3 percent bar passage rate. 97 percent of their students find a job within 9 months of graduation. I don't see how applying to a school like Albany is a waste of my time or money, especially considering it will cost me $12. As another example, Missouri is ranked 65 and lists a 5-20 percent chance of acceptance, based on last year's entering class. Sure, it's not likely, but a 1 in 10 chance is still worth applying.

I fully realize I'm well below the averages at most schools and that my chances are slim. But you can't win if you don't play and in the event I DON'T get in anywhere, then sure, retake the test. Hell, even retake it in Feb and put off some of my applications. But I see no reason to not even try.


If you want to apply to Missouri and Albany and a few other T2's go ahead. Maybe you will get in. But when you don't retake the LSAT in September 2010.

Do not apply to a bunch of T4's just to get in somewhere. It isn't worth it.



The University of Missiouri is a T1 school according to the 2009 US News rankings.


A year a two ago they combined T1 and T2 into just T1 so some weird reason. So now it goes T1 T3 T4. Either way apply to schools 1-100 only. Maybe you'll sneek in with your LOR and Personal statement. Just don't apply to the T3's and T4's without retaking.

lawoftheland
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby lawoftheland » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:19 am

I have something to add to this discussion.... I think it's a very closed-minded approach to attribute all chances for future success based on law school rankings, T1, T14, T-whatever, blah, etc.

My friend's father graduated from Valparaiso law.... he's now a millionaire, many times over. Two of his kids followed suit... they're each making over 200k. The dad was making a quarter mill for several years in a not-so-crowded-with-lawyers part of NW Indiana... saved a ton, invested in several businesses, still practices law (own firm) and is rich.

Re: Valpo - I think that's TTT or even quad-T but even if it was, like, a dozen T's... whotf cares? If you are compelled and driven enough to learn this here law system of ours and then work your ass off, you'll be successful.

I think it's a sheltered, naive perspective to rely too heavily on rankings.... I would toss the word "arbitrary" in there but they do matter, to an extent. Just not to the extent many suggest on these boards.

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karlieann
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby karlieann » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:31 am

lawoftheland wrote:
Re: Valpo - I think that's TTT or even quad-T but even if it was, like, a dozen T's... whotf cares? If you are compelled and driven enough to learn this here law system of ours and then work your ass off, you'll be successful.

I think it's a sheltered, naive perspective to rely too heavily on rankings.... I would toss the word "arbitrary" in there but they do matter, to an extent. Just not to the extent many suggest on these boards.


I appreciate this and I do agree with you that rankings matter. Name recognition is obviously important and helpful, but the law at Cornell is the same law taught at Hofstra. Sure the classes are different, the professors more highly regarded, etc. But education and hard work are what you as an individual make of them.

09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:36 am

lawoftheland wrote:I have something to add to this discussion.... I think it's a very closed-minded approach to attribute all chances for future success based on law school rankings, T1, T14, T-whatever, blah, etc.

My friend's father graduated from Valparaiso law.... he's now a millionaire, many times over. Two of his kids followed suit... they're each making over 200k. The dad was making a quarter mill for several years in a not-so-crowded-with-lawyers part of NW Indiana... saved a ton, invested in several businesses, still practices law (own firm) and is rich.

Re: Valpo - I think that's TTT or even quad-T but even if it was, like, a dozen T's... whotf cares? If you are compelled and driven enough to learn this here law system of ours and then work your ass off, you'll be successful.

I think it's a sheltered, naive perspective to rely too heavily on rankings.... I would toss the word "arbitrary" in there but they do matter, to an extent. Just not to the extent many suggest on these boards.


Nobody is saying all but its prestige of your law school is a major factor in future success. Someone with natural talent and a bit of luck could become a millionaire, but most will be making under 60K a year with 150K in debt if they are lucky enough to find a job. It would be a better bet to go put 150K on the roulette wheel in vegas, and I'm not joking.

lawoftheland
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby lawoftheland » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:49 am

Nobody is saying all but its prestige of your law school is a major factor in future success. Someone with natural talent and a bit of luck could become a millionaire, but most will be making under 60K a year with 150K in debt if they are lucky enough to find a job. It would be a better bet to go put 150K on the roulette wheel in vegas, and I'm not joking.[/quote]

But that is a joke. If they were to gamble 150k, why wouldn't they first hire a coach, train in hold'em, start with a few small tournaments, and then gradually build up to a decent yearly income playing in the WLP circuit and various side cash-games? That's also a joke. My real point is a JD is worth far more to your future success and marketability than a coin flip gamble.

09042014
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:04 am

lawoftheland wrote:Nobody is saying all but its prestige of your law school is a major factor in future success. Someone with natural talent and a bit of luck could become a millionaire, but most will be making under 60K a year with 150K in debt if they are lucky enough to find a job. It would be a better bet to go put 150K on the roulette wheel in vegas, and I'm not joking.


But that is a joke. If they were to gamble 150k, why wouldn't they first hire a coach, train in hold'em, start with a few small tournaments, and then gradually build up to a decent yearly income playing in the WLP circuit and various side cash-games? That's also a joke. My real point is a JD is worth far more to your future success and marketability than a coin flip gamble.[/quote]

Not one from a T4, at least at full price.

lawoftheland
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby lawoftheland » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:10 am

Desert Fox wrote:
lawoftheland wrote:Nobody is saying all but its prestige of your law school is a major factor in future success. Someone with natural talent and a bit of luck could become a millionaire, but most will be making under 60K a year with 150K in debt if they are lucky enough to find a job. It would be a better bet to go put 150K on the roulette wheel in vegas, and I'm not joking.


But that is a joke. If they were to gamble 150k, why wouldn't they first hire a coach, train in hold'em, start with a few small tournaments, and then gradually build up to a decent yearly income playing in the WLP circuit and various side cash-games? That's also a joke. My real point is a JD is worth far more to your future success and marketability than a coin flip gamble.


Not one from a T4, at least at full price.[/quote]

Are you considering the potential for hyperinflation in the next 10 years? It may be a bargain. In any case, what isn't a gamble these days, you know? I, for one (and re: the OP's implied motivation) would never dissuade someone from pursuing a higher degree.

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Gymnast0206
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Gymnast0206 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:06 pm

lawoftheland wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Nobody is saying all but its prestige of your law school is a major factor in future success. Someone with natural talent and a bit of luck could become a millionaire, but most will be making under 60K a year with 150K in debt if they are lucky enough to find a job. It would be a better bet to go put 150K on the roulette wheel in vegas, and I'm not joking.


But that is a joke. If they were to gamble 150k, why wouldn't they first hire a coach, train in hold'em, start with a few small tournaments, and then gradually build up to a decent yearly income playing in the WLP circuit and various side cash-games? That's also a joke. My real point is a JD is worth far more to your future success and marketability than a coin flip gamble.


Not one from a T4, at least at full price.[/quote]


Um there are only two reasons to attend law school. 1). You get in the T20 and 2). You get a full-ride. Otherwise...you're screwed.

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kalvano
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby kalvano » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:10 pm

Gymnast0206 wrote:Um there are only two reasons to attend law school. 1). You get in the T20 and 2). You get a full-ride. Otherwise...you're screwed.



This is just stupid.

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Gymnast0206
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Gymnast0206 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:14 pm

kalvano wrote:
Gymnast0206 wrote:Um there are only two reasons to attend law school. 1). You get in the T20 and 2). You get a full-ride. Otherwise...you're screwed.



This is just stupid.



Why? If you get the full ride you don't have the student loan burden. Also, if you get into T20 you have a solid chance of paying back your debt. Going to schools third or fourth tier and pay 20k + is stupid. Most won't get a job paying more than 60k . . . not hardly enough to repay those loans. Admittedly, if you're at the top of your class at any Tier 1 you have a better chance of being okay, but it's really just stupid to be in debt 100k + at a mediocre school where you are an average student.

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kalvano
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby kalvano » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:15 pm

You realize there's an entire range of schools out of the T20 that aren't "third or fourth tier"?

I don't think you do.

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Gymnast0206
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Gymnast0206 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:20 pm

I'm pretty sure I addressed that by saying that you would have a better chance of success by being at the top of your class at any Tier 1 school. But you know as well as I do that being ranked 100/200 at the University of Tennessee is going to place you in mid-range salary. And it's also known that the person who ranks last at Yale will make a hell of a lot more than the person who ranks last at the University of Maine.

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kalvano
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby kalvano » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:41 pm

I called your premise stupid because you made it sound so black and white. It's not. A person can go to a non-T20 and have great success.

Now, the further down the rankings you go, the more important finances become.

But by your premise, it's a waste of my time and money to go to SMU or Wake Forest at 50% scholarship. It's not. But out of the T20, you get faced with decisions like Wake at 50% or W&L at 100%. It becomes much more gray.

But to say either T20 or full ride or nothing is shortsighted and foolish.

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Gymnast0206
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Gymnast0206 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:03 pm

If you're getting 50% at Wake you can get into the T20 . . .where getting a degree at Boalt is still better than 1/2 off at Wake.

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kalvano
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby kalvano » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:07 pm

Gymnast0206 wrote:If you're getting 50% at Wake you can get into the T20 . . .where getting a degree at Boalt is still better than 1/2 off at Wake.



Perhaps I could, but I didn't get in to any of the schools in the T20 I applied to.

I would take Wake any day over Boalt.

My point still stands. Your claim is ridiculous and shortsighted.

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Gymnast0206
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby Gymnast0206 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:24 pm

Well, sorry for your luck, but my opinion stands there's no need to go that far into debt without the certainty of a 80k + job. Too much of a gamble for me. Anyway, good discussion. Agree to disagree.

Best of luck with the rest of your cycle!

mayra0509
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby mayra0509 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:08 pm

I say if you have the cash (and sometimes even if you dont but can get a student loan) you can always go to CalWest. They admit anyone but will boot you out if you dont keep a min GPA of 3.0 (I think, dont quote me on that).

keg411
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Re: Need personal application advice

Postby keg411 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:19 pm

Gymnast0206 wrote:Well, sorry for your luck, but my opinion stands there's no need to go that far into debt without the certainty of a 80k + job. Too much of a gamble for me. Anyway, good discussion. Agree to disagree.

Best of luck with the rest of your cycle!


So, Gymnast, based on your cycle in your profile, you're not going to law school?

And Full Ride with scholarship stips isn't a full ride.




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