Mid-level schools with national appeal? Forum

[kurama20]

Emory

[reasonable_man]

reasonable manbutt, do you know which states grant admission to the bar and then allow you to practice in a few other states?
I was at a wedding yesterday and as both bride and groom were graduates of my university, and groom was a member of jewfrat, I had a very lovely time schmoozing with law students (who told me this was the case). They informed me of this. Now I want to see about strategizing.

There are a few states that have reciprocal admission, but there really isn't much need for it. Pick one State you really want to practice in and focus on that. You can take a second state at the same time and that will be more than enough.

[sckon]

Emory

[Helmholtz]

UVA

[RVP11]

UVA

Too regional.

Chicago.

[Luis Gomez]

I hope so. Wake Forest has become my top choice despite being admitted to higher ranked schools.

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm using the wrong terminology when I refer to "Tier 1" schools. I suppose I meant schools out of the top 25 but within the top 75 – decent schools that I don't have to pray to get into with my numbers.

I've read that Wake Forest has fairly broad appeal and doesn't seem to be too outside my range.

[Kohinoor]

UVA

you best be joking

[vanwinkle]

UVA

[ram jam]

Apply ambitiously and cast a wide net. From your acceptances, select the best school factoring in location, reputation and, most importantly, cost!

It will not matter what school you went too once you have landed a full time legal job. You may not like the market, but you will be buried so deep underneath case law that you will never see the city you work in during day light.

After a few years of blood, sweat and tears, you will have more mobility.

If you cannot get into T14, this path is your only chance.

[flcath]

UVA

you best be joking

This was a much better (i.e., likely to incite reaction) flame than the Emory post someone threw out earlier. No one on TLS even goes to Emory.

[Cara]

Schools ranked 15-25ish are about as low as you can go and still expect some prospect of national placement based on the reputation of the school, especially ITE.

[rookhawk]

A few things to keep in mind about school selection:

1. Only lawyers and their lawyer cronies truly know a good law school from a moderately good law school.

2. If you work as in house counsel for a large corporation it is more important to go to a nationally recognized "good school" in the general sense than to go to a top law school. Particularly if the other senior executives run in the same alumni circles.

Lastly, Notre Dame is the absolute top national choice below tier-14 and I can provide a few anecdotal reasons why:

1. Notre Dame is the third most recognized university in the world. (by name recognition) Yale and Harvard being the only two better known to the masses.

2. 1 billion people happen to be Catholic and those people generally look favorably upon ND grads wherever they roam. (regardless of the person's individual faith)

3. Those on the really inside track that know the nitty-gritty of what schools are doing know that ND ranks as one of the highest global institutions in the area of business and legal ethics. If you intend to be an attorney that cleans up very ugly situations having an educational background that is strong on ethics provides some reassurance to you employer/client.

4. Football. As bizarre and seemingly irrelevant as that sounds, the fact that ND is not in a regional conference (e.g. big-10, big-east, pac-10) means that Notre Dame is a household name all over the country. This silly little game allows in roads for many levels of respected competition from coast to coast that seems to have a positive effect on job prospects throughout the country.

[flcath]

1. Notre Dame is the third most recognized university in the world. (by name recognition) Yale and Harvard being the only two better known to the masses.

I would bet money this isn't true; at the very least people know Oxford and Cambridge more, and I'd bet domestically they know Princeton and Stanford more as well.

2. 1 billion people happen to be Catholic and those people generally look favorably upon ND grads wherever they roam. (regardless of the person's individual faith)

People (non-Catholic TLSers) brush this shit off, but it's true. Smart, rich, well-positioned Catholics who should be too rational to have preferences like this will favor the Domers over similarly (or more)-qualified people. I can't vouch for law per se, but I have seen it in both business and (non-legal) academia.

3. Those on the really inside track that know the nitty-gritty of what schools are doing know that ND ranks as one of the highest global institutions in the area of business and legal ethics. If you intend to be an attorney that cleans up very ugly situations having an educational background that is strong on ethics provides some reassurance to you employer/client.

I don't know if this is actually true in general (it doesn't seem like it would be), but the new CEO of Bank of America (NDLS alum) is a definite beneficiary of this concept.

[rookhawk]

A quick response to the skeptic about "ND being a world leader in ethics".

When I was at ND for my first ethics class they brought in Chairman Emeritus of the University, Father Ted Hesburgh. If you are unfamiliar with "Father Ted's" resume I'll give a few highlights to illustrate his qualifications to teach ethics. Co-Author of the 1964 civil rights amendment. Advisor to several US presidents. Marched with Dr. King when it was VERY unfashionable to do so in many Catholic, blue-collar democrat circles. (remember in 1964 Republicans were the majority in favor of civil rights and the Catholic democrats were putting up some resistance...speaks volume of ND 's character that they fight for what is right, not what is popular with a constituency) Ted also holds the Guiness world record for the most honorary degrees of anyone in human history.

So when I heard about putting "ethics into action" I had to hand it to ND, they had what it takes to make the grade. The other professors were very laudable as well and people like Fr. Ollie Williams (heavily involved in international slave labor issues), Dr. Joe Holt, esq., and others all come to mind.

My MBA from ND was one of the greatest highlights of my adult life and I can't say enough good things about the school. They took a chance on me and let me into a circle of excellence that no one would have thought possible when I was a child.

I'd further that the joint JD/MBA program at ND is a double win because you're getting top-25 in both programs in only three years.

Regards,

Rookhawk

-Disclaimers: ND Grad
-Not Catholic
-Not from Indiana
-I work nationally
-While not an attorney, I have managed legal issues and legal staff professionally

[Neelio]

UW

[flcath]

Congratulations, new guy; you are rapidly moving up the ranks of solid posters.

Why thank you for the props!

Let me just add that I conducted this peer-reviewed study on lay prestige (scholarly publication pending), and while ND fared very well (it had the best ratio of lay prestige ranking to USNWR ranking of all schools... UChicago was far-and-away the worst), it was still typically toward the bottom of the top 10.
Also, not to be one of those disrespectful-to-all-history-and-tradition type young people, but everyone in my generation thinks ND's football team kinda sucks.

Once again though, the OP was about TIER 2 schools with national reach (ND is a T25), and I still go with Tulane and UF. Maybe Case Western? (They're a good overall university, so if we're going off that concept...)

A quick response to the skeptic about "ND being a world leader in ethics".

When I was at ND for my first ethics class they brought in Chairman Emeritus of the University, Father Ted Hesburgh. If you are unfamiliar with "Father Ted's" resume I'll give a few highlights to illustrate his qualifications to teach ethics. Co-Author of the 1964 civil rights amendment. Advisor to several US presidents. Marched with Dr. King when it was VERY unfashionable to do so in many Catholic, blue-collar democrat circles. (remember in 1964 Republicans were the majority in favor of civil rights and the Catholic democrats were putting up some resistance...speaks volume of ND 's character that they fight for what is right, not what is popular with a constituency) Ted also holds the Guiness world record for the most honorary degrees of anyone in human history.

So when I heard about putting "ethics into action" I had to hand it to ND, they had what it takes to make the grade. The other professors were very laudable as well and people like Fr. Ollie Williams (heavily involved in international slave labor issues), Dr. Joe Holt, esq., and others all come to mind.

Yes, I know Hesburgh, and I know the school's commitment to service/ethics, I just doubt the impact of that rep on entry-level attorney hiring (anywhere). I do think it can play a significant role on your attractiveness as an applicant to highly visible (read: experienced) leadership positions, as was the case with the BoA CEO I noted.

Edit: I think even ND would tell you that they emphasize ethics b/c they believe it's important in and of itself, not for any perceived marketability.