Mid-level schools with national appeal?

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keg411
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby keg411 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:48 pm

Law has almost always been a regional field. Hence most people's best bet is to go to school where you want to live. It's where the networking opportunities will be, which is important for EVERY SCHOOL outside of the T14. The note to make should be, the lower the ranking the more local the placement is for the school. There are always exceptions (for example, I met a Southwestern grad working in NJ less than a year after graduation... and yes, the person was employed with a good job in the public sector), but 99.9% of the time you will practice where you go to law school.

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ggocat
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby ggocat » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:How many incoming law students have connections in the legal industry? Not many at all. For those who do, like you, taking a random T2 with cheap, or free tuition is a good deal.

Ah, by "connections," I don't mean connections to the legal field. I just meant being able to express a genuine interest in a location for a particularized reason---e.g., family located in the area, went to college in the area, or grew up in the area. I had no connections to the legal field before law school. But as soon as you start working in the legal field (1L summer), you start to get legal connections.

Desert Fox wrote:The T25's you were talking about are still nationally recognized law schools. DC firms may prefer GW, but they at least know Vandy is a good school. The major draw back is the lack of firms who will be at OCI, where most of the good jobs are won. Also the schools you used place well in their general region. ND for example places a lot in Chicago. Out of state but still in market.

Vandy is a great school; no doubt so is ND, Tulane, and Emory. But I wouldn't call them national simply because I doubt the average student could get a top prestige-oriented job (e.g., biglaw, clerkship, top public interest/government) in a neutral location. If you take the average student from HYS and some other schools, they could probably still go to OCI (or mass mail) and get a top job in NYC/Chi/LA/DC/wherever. That's "national" in my book.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:how is what they do any different than what the T14 do?

if the T14 does it as well, does it really matter?

This is a great point and probably why I think there are two valid definitions of "national." If we say "national" is the ability of a school to attract students from across the country, then I'd say schools like Tulane are national. But if we say "national" is the ability of a school to place the average student in top jobs across the country based largely on the name of the school, then a school like Tulane is not national.

What I meant to suggest by posting the % of incoming students from Tulane/ND/etc. was that I don't think those schools could be called "national" because of placement statistics. Rather, I think they would more appropriately be called "national" because of the diversity of their incoming classes (depending on how you define "national").

I think the fact that people have different definitions of "national" is why there is so much debate about whether certain schools are national schools.
Last edited by ggocat on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

flcath
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sibley wrote:The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.


Lets be honest. They have less talented faculty, and less talented student body, on average of course. That's why they don't have national appeal. That doesn't mean you won't get a decent education, its just not as good.

I think there is too much prestige whoring in the legal field, but lets not pretend the difference between Northwestern and Depaul is that Depaul teaches more local. Also a lot of the T3's and T4's (but not all) are diploma mills.

Even that is too kind. It has nothing to do with the education the school provides at all; it's simply their admissions selectivity on the front end. Even Scalia acknowledged this--in his "fuck you" speech at American U., explaining why he would never hire an American U. grad as a clerk--with his colorful metaphor about making silk purses out of sow's ears (actually, I think he butchered the expression).

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ggocat
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby ggocat » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:31 pm

sibley wrote:The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

Huh? What ABA-approved law schools teach their state's laws? Some schools may have electives that teach state law. For example, these courses at NYU: https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6705. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=7037. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6742.

But no school (as far as I know) teaches primarily its own state's laws. Last I can remember, that would violate ABA accreditation rules; I'll have to look for those later.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:42 am

ggocat wrote:
sibley wrote:The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

Huh? What ABA-approved law schools teach their state's laws? Some schools may have electives that teach state law. For example, these courses at NYU: https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6705. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=7037. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6742.

But no school (as far as I know) teaches primarily its own state's laws. Last I can remember, that would violate ABA accreditation rules; I'll have to look for those later.


Many regional school's focus on their state's laws. Saint John's in NY teaches civil procedure geared largely towards the NY Civil Practice Laws and Rules and provides side by side comparisons to NY Law v. 'national law' in most of its first year classes.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:11 am

reasonable_man wrote:
ggocat wrote:
sibley wrote:The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

Huh? What ABA-approved law schools teach their state's laws? Some schools may have electives that teach state law. For example, these courses at NYU: https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6705. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=7037. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6742.

But no school (as far as I know) teaches primarily its own state's laws. Last I can remember, that would violate ABA accreditation rules; I'll have to look for those later.


Many regional school's focus on their state's laws. Saint John's in NY teaches civil procedure geared largely towards the NY Civil Practice Laws and Rules and provides side by side comparisons to NY Law v. 'national law' in most of its first year classes.


They teach for admission to the state's bar, specifically. It's like a high school teaching for the regents exams...

Anyway, this is just stuff I was told over the phone on Tuesday evening. My bf's aunt is a Harvard Law grad so she was giving me advice.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:26 am

sibley wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
ggocat wrote:
sibley wrote:The reason lower-ranked schools don't have national appeal is because they focus on more concrete, localized things. They teach you the state's laws whereas HYS would teach more theoretically. If you want to work in a firm, you have the added benefit of using your law school friends as advisors when you're not sure about something. You can't do that if they're practicing across the country - their laws won't necessarily apply to your cases.

Huh? What ABA-approved law schools teach their state's laws? Some schools may have electives that teach state law. For example, these courses at NYU: https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6705. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=7037. https://its.law.nyu.edu/courses/description.cfm?id=6742.

But no school (as far as I know) teaches primarily its own state's laws. Last I can remember, that would violate ABA accreditation rules; I'll have to look for those later.


Many regional school's focus on their state's laws. Saint John's in NY teaches civil procedure geared largely towards the NY Civil Practice Laws and Rules and provides side by side comparisons to NY Law v. 'national law' in most of its first year classes.


They teach for admission to the state's bar, specifically. It's like a high school teaching for the regents exams...

Anyway, this is just stuff I was told over the phone on Tuesday evening. My bf's aunt is a Harvard Law grad so she was giving me advice.


Fair enough, but why go as far as to say that it would 'violate ABA accredidation rules' if you're simply talking out of your ass? Not to single you out, but you really should have some basis for what you're saying before you make a statement like that... And be honest, have you really read the ABA accredidation rules? Come on now. Next time, be honest and cite the source of your information, i.e. some shit a HLS grad said over the phone that I may ot may not be quoting properly; instead of pretending you have any real first-hand information to share. (not directed at you, but at the quoted text within).
Last edited by reasonable_man on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kurama20
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby kurama20 » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:28 am

Emory.

sibley
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:43 am

reasonable_man wrote:Fair enough, but why go as far as to say that it would 'violate ABA accredidation rules' if you're simply talking out of your ass? Not to single you out, but you really should have some basis for what you're saying before you make a statement like that... And be honest, have you really read the ABA accredidation rules? Come on now. Next time, be honest and cite the source of your information, i.e. some shit a HLS grad said over the phone that I may ot may not be quoting properly; instead of pretending you have any real first-hand information to share. (not directed at you, but at the quoted text within).


Dude. That wasn't me. Nice reading comprehension. ... and nice addition of that (sentence) at the end, which doesn't help your argument. How about you realize your mistake and revoke your statement rather than using MY statement to discredit someone ELSE?

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:09 pm

sibley wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Fair enough, but why go as far as to say that it would 'violate ABA accredidation rules' if you're simply talking out of your ass? Not to single you out, but you really should have some basis for what you're saying before you make a statement like that... And be honest, have you really read the ABA accredidation rules? Come on now. Next time, be honest and cite the source of your information, i.e. some shit a HLS grad said over the phone that I may ot may not be quoting properly; instead of pretending you have any real first-hand information to share. (not directed at you, but at the quoted text within).


Dude. That wasn't me. Nice reading comprehension. ... and nice addition of that (sentence) at the end, which doesn't help your argument. How about you realize your mistake and revoke your statement rather than using MY statement to discredit someone ELSE?


Ok.... So you want more of a clarification than one that directly points to what I was talking about? Sorry snowflake, but no.

sibley
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:18 pm

Aw I got a cute nickname :)

And ok. I don't really care. The only reason I even said anything was because I didn't want anyone to think you were right... I obviously have little reason to respect you... a real-live lawyer spending his days on TLS?

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:24 pm

sibley wrote:Aw I got a cute nickname :)

And ok. I don't really care. The only reason I even said anything was because I didn't want anyone to think you were right... I obviously have little reason to respect you... a real-live lawyer spending his days on TLS?



Based upon my join date and my number of post, i average less than7 posts a day. You're right though. TLS would be far better off if it were limited to know-nothing idiots like yourself; rather than having a few people scattered here and there that actually know what the fuck they're talking about. Why would you want a few actual lawyers taking the time to post and provide useful information for future lawyers on a website dedicated to the process of becoming a lawyer?

Brilliant.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:53 pm

K. I have stuff to say but... instead I'm just going to concede. Because this is a ridiculous argument.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:58 pm

Thread accelerating from mild to medium hot. sibley, reasonable_man doesn't work at Wachtell and wasn't on law review. reasonable_man, sibley is a 0L posting the advice of her bf's aunt. She also suggested that Yale would lose its national prestige if it taught the law of Connecticut or wherever Yale is.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:19 pm

Kohinoor wrote:Thread accelerating from mild to medium hot. sibley, reasonable_man doesn't work at Wachtell and wasn't on law review. reasonable_man, sibley is a 0L posting the advice of her bf's aunt. She also suggested that Yale would lose its national prestige if it taught the law of Connecticut or wherever Yale is.


This is true. As a matter of fact, my firm isn't even on the NYLJ250.. Shit, we only have 3 floors in downtown Manhattan and one of our offices is even in, ghasp, New Jersey. My utility = 0.

sibley
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:27 pm

Did you take the bar in both NY and NJ? The firm I worked at did a lot of work in mostly Kings and Queens counties, plus some Westchester and Staten Island, but we did have an office in NJ that took cases in Manhattan as well as NJ, which I thought was silly, because that's one more exam than is necessary to pass, considering we already had an office representing the rest of NYC

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:29 pm

sibley wrote:Did you take the bar in both NY and NJ? The firm I worked at did a lot of work in mostly Kings and Queens counties, plus some Westchester and Staten Island, but we did have an office in NJ that took cases in Manhattan as well as NJ, which I thought was silly, because that's one more exam than is necessary to pass, considering we already had an office representing the rest of NYC


I actually took NY and CT. The post-pass requirements in Jersey (6 weeks of intensive CLE with homework) seemed silly, as I had no intention of practicing there. I wound up only finalizing the NY app, even though I passed NY and CT together.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:52 pm

That's what I'm putting on my NYC school applications that ask where I'm considering taking the bar. NY, CT, NJ.
Last edited by sibley on Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thesealocust
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:20 pm

sibley wrote:That's what I'm putting my NYC school applications that ask where I'm considering taking the bar. NY, CT, NJ.


Aps ask for that? Weird, the didn't back in my day (last year :P)

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:36 pm

thesealocust wrote:
sibley wrote:That's what I'm putting my NYC school applications that ask where I'm considering taking the bar. NY, CT, NJ.


Aps ask for that? Weird, the didn't back in my day (last year :P)


I'm pretty sure Fordham asked

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kurama20
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:19 pm

Emory

keg411
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby keg411 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:28 pm

I think they just changed the CLE requirements in NJ. New grads don't need to do them anymore, but now everyone else does (needless to say, my parents aren't too thrilled; especially my mom who doesn't practice anymore but keeps her license active).

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Helmholtz
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:30 pm

Cornell

sckon
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sckon » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:50 am

Damon wrote:Neither Notre DAme nor BYU has much pull at all on the west coast. in the midwest, maybe. A mid level ls with quite a large alum network and up and down appeal would be the university of washington.



Notre Dame places a good percentage (considering their location) of their graduates into Cali, stronger pull than you would think.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby sibley » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:38 am

reasonable manbutt, do you know which states grant admission to the bar and then allow you to practice in a few other states?
I was at a wedding yesterday and as both bride and groom were graduates of my university, and groom was a member of jewfrat, I had a very lovely time schmoozing with law students (who told me this was the case). They informed me of this. Now I want to see about strategizing.




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