Mid-level schools with national appeal?

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j.wellington
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Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby j.wellington » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:58 pm

I'm aware that your best job prospects after law school are in the region surrounding your school, and since I have roots on both ends of the country I've been splitting apps accordingly. Ideally, though, I'd rather not decide where I'll spend the rest of my life by the end of April, so I'd like a degree I can shop around multiple places. I don't have the credentials to get into most of the obvious elites that will make an impression everywhere (Berkeley is my highest reach), so I'm wondering if anyone knows of Tier 2 law schools that have national reputations. (GPA: 3.48, LSAT: 164)

Eh?

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Unitas
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Unitas » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:00 pm

Notre Dame is the lowest I know with national appeal and even that is limited. They just have a huge alumni base. They are still T1 though...

Your numbers are just barely above both 25ths...

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:01 pm

Most Tier 2 law schools don't have appeal in their own region, let alone a different region.


In short; their are none.

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Cupidity
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Cupidity » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:03 pm

Notre Dame has a strong alumni network, so do the UC schools because in some ways they pool their alumni network, so schools like Irvine, Hastings and Davis get to ride the wake of UCLA and Berkeley.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Kretzy » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:04 pm

j.wellington wrote:I'm aware that your best job prospects after law school are in the region surrounding your school, and since I have roots on both ends of the country I've been splitting apps accordingly. Ideally, though, I'd rather not decide where I'll spend the rest of my life by the end of April, so I'd like a degree I can shop around multiple places. I don't have the credentials to get into most of the obvious elites that will make an impression everywhere (Berkeley is my highest reach), so I'm wondering if anyone knows of Tier 2 law schools that have national reputations. (GPA: 3.48, LSAT: 164)

Eh?


I think BYU would be the closest, if you are LDS. They seem to have a pretty good network, similar to Notre Dame, but on a lesser scale and with less lay appeal. I really don't think another school below ND has that sort of (albeit limited) national reach.

GatorBait09
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:07 pm

j.wellington wrote:I'm aware that your best job prospects after law school are in the region surrounding your school, and since I have roots on both ends of the country I've been splitting apps accordingly. Ideally, though, I'd rather not decide where I'll spend the rest of my life by the end of April, so I'd like a degree I can shop around multiple places. I don't have the credentials to get into most of the obvious elites that will make an impression everywhere (Berkeley is my highest reach), so I'm wondering if anyone knows of Tier 2 law schools that have national reputations. (GPA: 3.48, LSAT: 164)

Eh?


I don't think you should really be relegating yourself to T2s just yet (none of which have national recognition that I'm aware of). You have decent numbers and no doubt you will get into a number of T1s. If you consider Boalt you're highest reach, maybe you should look at Emory, W&M, W&L, and USC among others. Like you said, all of these are going to be best suited for their respective regions, but all 4 have decent alumni networks that span the country. If you work hard enough and make solid connections, these JDs will probably carry weight across the U.S.

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anothernancydrew
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby anothernancydrew » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:08 pm

I'm not sure if this is actually true, but I've heard people claim (on this site and elsewhere) that Tulane has a greater reach than the ranking would suggest. It isn't quite T2, but fairly close, and I think you'd probably be fine to get in with your stats. Disclaimer: Again, just something I heard, so if others disagree, they very well may have more accurate information.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:11 pm

anothernancydrew wrote:I'm not sure if this is actually true, but I've heard people claim (on this site and elsewhere) that Tulane has a greater reach than the ranking would suggest. It isn't quite T2, but fairly close, and I think you'd probably be fine to get in with your stats. Disclaimer: Again, just something I heard, so if others disagree, they very well may have more accurate information.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html seems to support your assertion. +1

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reasonable_man
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:31 pm

GatorBait09 wrote:
anothernancydrew wrote:I'm not sure if this is actually true, but I've heard people claim (on this site and elsewhere) that Tulane has a greater reach than the ranking would suggest. It isn't quite T2, but fairly close, and I think you'd probably be fine to get in with your stats. Disclaimer: Again, just something I heard, so if others disagree, they very well may have more accurate information.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html seems to support your assertion. +1


Tulane doesn't have 'national appeal.' Its a TTT in a horrible market and thus its graduates scatter in search of jobs.

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traehekat
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby traehekat » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:38 pm

Conundrum.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:43 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
GatorBait09 wrote:
anothernancydrew wrote:I'm not sure if this is actually true, but I've heard people claim (on this site and elsewhere) that Tulane has a greater reach than the ranking would suggest. It isn't quite T2, but fairly close, and I think you'd probably be fine to get in with your stats. Disclaimer: Again, just something I heard, so if others disagree, they very well may have more accurate information.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html seems to support your assertion. +1


Tulane doesn't have 'national appeal.' Its a TTT in a horrible market and thus its graduates scatter in search of jobs.


Yet it adequately addresses all of the OP's concerns: 70% leave LA (implying portability), 28% find jobs in the Northeast, "significant numbers" find jobs on the West Coast, 95% of grads are employed within 9 months, all with a handsome starting private sector salary of $140k (37% of grads reporting mind you).

Believe me, I'm not about to drop my schools for Tulane, but for what the OP describes it's exactly what he's looking for...and it's T1.

09042014
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:48 pm

GatorBait09 wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
GatorBait09 wrote:
anothernancydrew wrote:I'm not sure if this is actually true, but I've heard people claim (on this site and elsewhere) that Tulane has a greater reach than the ranking would suggest. It isn't quite T2, but fairly close, and I think you'd probably be fine to get in with your stats. Disclaimer: Again, just something I heard, so if others disagree, they very well may have more accurate information.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/tulane-law-school.html seems to support your assertion. +1


Tulane doesn't have 'national appeal.' Its a TTT in a horrible market and thus its graduates scatter in search of jobs.


Yet it adequately addresses all of the OP's concerns: 70% leave LA (implying portability), 28% find jobs in the Northeast, "significant numbers" find jobs on the West Coast, 95% of grads are employed within 9 months, all with a handsome starting private sector salary of $140k (37% of grads reporting mind you).

Believe me, I'm not about to drop my schools for Tulane, but for what the OP describes it's exactly what he's looking for...and it's T1.


37% of 69% who go into private sector, and that 140 is only the median. That stat could be true if only 13% of their students made 140.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:37% of 69% who go into private sector, and that 140 is only the median. That stat could be true if only 13% of their students made 140.


Well, I already qualified that statement so...

And what does this even have to do with national portability?

09042014
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:55 pm

GatorBait09 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:37% of 69% who go into private sector, and that 140 is only the median. That stat could be true if only 13% of their students made 140.


Well, I already qualified that statement so...

And what does this even have to do with national portability?


So don't believe their bullshit numbers. Nowhere near 50% of Tulane students make that kind of money after graduation and potential students should know that.

And I didn't bring up median salary.

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:00 am

Desert Fox wrote:
GatorBait09 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:37% of 69% who go into private sector, and that 140 is only the median. That stat could be true if only 13% of their students made 140.


Well, I already qualified that statement so...

And what does this even have to do with national portability?


So don't believe their bullshit numbers. Nowhere near 50% of Tulane students make that kind of money after graduation and potential students should know that.

And I didn't bring up median salary.


lol I never said I did believe that number. In fact I pretty clearly implied that I didn't. I just stated the numbers that Ken provided on the page, the most relevant of which are the 70% who find work outside of LA and those who find work in the OP's areas of interest.

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ruleser
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby ruleser » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:02 am

j.wellington wrote:I'm aware that your best job prospects after law school are in the region surrounding your school, and since I have roots on both ends of the country I've been splitting apps accordingly. Ideally, though, I'd rather not decide where I'll spend the rest of my life by the end of April, so I'd like a degree I can shop around multiple places. I don't have the credentials to get into most of the obvious elites that will make an impression everywhere (Berkeley is my highest reach), so I'm wondering if anyone knows of Tier 2 law schools that have national reputations. (GPA: 3.48, LSAT: 164)

Eh?

I would shoot for BU, maybe BC with those numbers. Hit that, maybe U of Il, WashU, GW (among the most national of these) - go at it with an open mind that you may not got a choice you want and instead want to retake the LSAT and reapply next cycle. This is for life, so waiting an extra year if you can add even a few points would be well worth it - that GPA with 3-4 more points is border T14, good shot at T18. Alternately, you might want to drop some aps to say, Cornell, Vandy, and set up a retake in Feb - get your aps in now, and say you will retake then, they may hold off or WL you, and your retake may kick you in.

EDIT: Tulane? Seriously?

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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby GatorBait09 » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:06 am

Seriously bra

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j.wellington
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby j.wellington » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:09 am

Thanks for the replies. I think I'm using the wrong terminology when I refer to "Tier 1" schools. I suppose I meant schools out of the top 25 but within the top 75 – decent schools that I don't have to pray to get into with my numbers.

I've read that Wake Forest has fairly broad appeal and doesn't seem to be too outside my range.

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thesealocust
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:20 am

be very careful OP. Getting a job at all form these schools is tough without sterling grades, and portability drops to nearly zero after the top 20, perhaps 25 schools.

The brutal truth is that if you're not sure where you want to practice law and aren't looking at getting into a true 'top' law school, you have a lot of thinking to do before you embark on this journey. What can seem like a whimsical choice now could turn into a 6-figure anchor around your neck securing you to a market you want no part of and would have trouble breaking into even if you wanted it.

Note that the poster reasonable_man above is a practicing attorney who graduated from a non-fantastic law school, pay special attention to his words.

Law school isn't all doom and gloom, and many people lead happy and successful lives coming out of school at every place in the rankings. But the best way to ensure happiness when aiming below the top schools is 1) to know that you want to practice law, and to be willing to incur substantial debt to do so, 2) to remove all hopes of getting a 6-figure starting salary, given the extreme odds / competition, and 3) to be happy working in the immediate vicinity of the school you attend, given the complete lack of portability most JDs outside of the top 20/25 schools have.

The answers you're getting aren't wrong - Tulane, BYU, and Notre Dame all probably do see more national pull than similar schools. But don't confuse 'more national pull than zero' with 'enough national pull to make it a wise investment if you don't plan to stay in the area'.

Be careful, don't let the nay-sayers get you down, but make sure you've looked as carefully as you can make yourself before you leap.

Damon
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Damon » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:29 am

Neither Notre DAme nor BYU has much pull at all on the west coast. in the midwest, maybe. A mid level ls with quite a large alum network and up and down appeal would be the university of washington.

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jcl2
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby jcl2 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:44 pm

The majority of the schools in the top 30 or so probably offer a little more national mobility than most people on here would have you believe. True, you should not go to any school outside the T14 planning on leaving the region, primarily because you shouldn't go to any school outside the T14 planning on biglaw and most non-biglaw jobs aren't gotten through OCI and require networking and local connections. However, if you do well at most schools in the 15 -35 range, leaving the region of the school will likely be an option; by "do well" I mean probably top 5-25% depending on the school and the state of the economy.

Anecdotaly, from talking to current students at the University of Washington, it sounds like getting a biglaw job in California or even New York can be easier than getting a biglaw job in Seattle for those ranked high in the class.

http://www.law.washington.edu/career/profiles.aspx
These stats are a couple years old, so as with every other school they wont be nearly as good across the board for the classes of 2009-11, but you will see that nearly 40% of graduates ended up working outside of the state and about 15% left the western US altogether. Given that there is a pretty high level of self selection for students to stay in the NW, I think this shows that getting a decent job outside the region is far from impossible. Also interesting to note that the graduates who left the state had considerably higher median salaries.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby jawsthegreat » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:47 pm

When asked what the lowest ranked school with national appeal is my response and first thought is always Tulane.

Scurredsitless1
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby Scurredsitless1 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:51 pm

From browsing JD Underground, I notice a lot of angry people who went to highly ranked regional schools and got boned looking for jobs elsewhere. You need to make some decisions about where you want to live.

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S de Garmeaux
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby S de Garmeaux » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:52 pm

Tulane and Wake forest are reportedly good for national mobility of employment considering their rankings

especially because a lot of people that apply to Tulane have no intention of practicing the Napoleonic Code

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FunkyJD
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Re: Mid-level schools with national appeal?

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:14 pm

Damon wrote:Neither Notre DAme nor BYU has much pull at all on the west coast. in the midwest, maybe. A mid level ls with quite a large alum network and up and down appeal would be the university of washington.


For what it's worth, I know a BYU JD who works with a firm in SoCal. Not biglaw, but he does not appear to be starving, either.

That does not prove that a BYU JD has a lot of pull on the West Coast, but it also suggests that portability to California is doable.




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