Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

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Columbia University vs. U. of Chicago

Columbia University
123
54%
University of Chicago
104
46%
 
Total votes: 227

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PLATONiC
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Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:58 pm

Perhaps Columbia beats Chicago in terms of prestige, but Chicago has a very competitive placement in the NLJ 250.

Which one do YOU prefer???

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MorningHood
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby MorningHood » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:05 am

people are still gonna vouch for columbia, no matter what the record shows

Kretzy
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby Kretzy » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:07 am

I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.

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englawyer
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby englawyer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:07 am

i would imagine its easier to get a chicago job from chicago and a new york job from columbia. probably not much easier in either case, but worth considering.

it would also be good to "plant your roots" where you want to end up (meet friends, future co-workers/alumni network, etc)

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Georgiana
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby Georgiana » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:08 am

I voted Chi, CLS was so douchey to me during my app cycle.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:10 am

Kretzy wrote:I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.


+1 to this. I think I would love to study on a quarter system, and the smaller class size would make my law school experience so much more enjoyable. I like the idea of a smaller academic community. I would definitely select Chi over NYU or Berkeley any day. What makes Columbia so much better than Chi anyway?

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chadwick218
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby chadwick218 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:20 am

Generally, I am drawn to Columbia over Chicago. Chicago's success in both NLJ250 placement and clerkship placement has a lot to do with their smaller class size and domination over a cross-town school!

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MorningHood
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby MorningHood » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:25 am

PLATONiC wrote:Perhaps Columbia beats Chicago in terms of prestige, but Chicago has a very competitive placement in the NLJ 250.

Which one do YOU prefer???


and

Kretzy wrote:I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.


correct me if i'm wrong, but chicago has the highest percentage of graduates being sent to the NLJ 250, but you gotta take note of their smaller class size. the prestige of Columbia also carries over to the number of graduates landing the most prestigious law firm jobs. i'm guessing that Columbia has higher placement in the most prestigious law firms out there.

Kretzy
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby Kretzy » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:30 am

MorningHood wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:Perhaps Columbia beats Chicago in terms of prestige, but Chicago has a very competitive placement in the NLJ 250.

Which one do YOU prefer???


and

Kretzy wrote:I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.


correct me if i'm wrong, but chicago has the highest percentage of graduates being sent to the NLJ 250, but you gotta take note of their smaller class size. the prestige of Columbia also carries over to the number of graduates landing the most prestigious law firm jobs. i'm guessing that Columbia has higher placement in the most prestigious law firms out there.


You're not wrong. In fact, both of those arguments are part of my initial claim. You have my agreement.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:36 am

and all of a sudden I'm not so sure about this poll being representative of the entire 0L community (U of C > CU atm)
Last edited by PLATONiC on Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ihatelaw
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby ihatelaw » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:42 am

nyu.

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:44 am

MorningHood wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:Perhaps Columbia beats Chicago in terms of prestige, but Chicago has a very competitive placement in the NLJ 250.

Which one do YOU prefer???


and

Kretzy wrote:I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.


correct me if i'm wrong, but chicago has the highest percentage of graduates being sent to the NLJ 250, but you gotta take note of their smaller class size. the prestige of Columbia also carries over to the number of graduates landing the most prestigious law firm jobs. i'm guessing that Columbia has higher placement in the most prestigious law firms out there.


Columbia and Chiacgo have equivalent placement. You are forgetting something that it seems almost all of TLS posters forget when it comes to nlj ,and even vault 10 placement, these firms are overwhelmingly in NYC, and are often NOT the most selective and elite firms. Sure Wachtell and Cravath are uber elite and very selective, but they are in NYC. CLS does outdo Chicago in these firms (although surprisingly not by much when you take into account class size). But at many of the truly most selective firms (Williams and Connolly, Munger, Irell, Cov DC, Kellogg Huber, Robbins Russell) you will see that Chicago does very very well. It does just as well as Columbia, or better in the case of some of these firms. The real nail in the coffin though is the fact that Chicago sends a substantial portion of it's grads into COA clerkships. If anything these COA clerk spots are harder to get than the top NYC biglaw. The two schools have equivalent placement. Finally, checkout the lawyer judge assessment scores over the years, you will find that Chicago has actually had a history of being closer to HYS than any other school in terms of assessment scores (legal prestige).

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MorningHood
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby MorningHood » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:50 am

kurama20 wrote:
MorningHood wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:Perhaps Columbia beats Chicago in terms of prestige, but Chicago has a very competitive placement in the NLJ 250.

Which one do YOU prefer???


and

Kretzy wrote:I personally voted for Chicago, but that's only because of my own metrics: academia and clerkship possibilities plus the quarter system. I also think a smaller student body is more flexible in this economy. But if I wanted NYC biglaw, especially at a very prestigious firm, it'd be Columbia in a heartbeat.


correct me if i'm wrong, but chicago has the highest percentage of graduates being sent to the NLJ 250, but you gotta take note of their smaller class size. the prestige of Columbia also carries over to the number of graduates landing the most prestigious law firm jobs. i'm guessing that Columbia has higher placement in the most prestigious law firms out there.


Columbia and Chiacgo have equivalent placement. You are forgetting something that it seems almost all of TLS posters forget when it comes to nlj ,and even vault 10 placement, these firms are overwhelmingly in NYC, and are often NOT the most selective and elite firms. Sure Wachtell and Cravath are uber elite and very selective, but they are in NYC. CLS does outdo Chicago in these firms (although surprisingly not by much when you take into account class size). But at many of the truly most selective firms (Williams and Connolly, Munger, Irell, Cov DC, Kellogg Huber, Robbins Russell) you will see that Chicago does very very well. It does just as well as Columbia, or better in the case of some of these firms. The real nail in the coffin though is the fact that Chicago sends a substantial portion of it's grads into COA clerkships. If anything these COA clerk spots are harder to get than the top NYC biglaw. The two schools have equivalent placement. Finally, checkout the lawyer judge assessment scores over the years, you will find that Chicago has actually had a history of being closer to HYS than any other school in terms of assessment scores (legal prestige).


this was pretty much the point i was trying to make. Columbia has higher placement on the "most prestigious" aka "uber elite." i do understand why some people may be inclined to go for chicago, but it's just the prestige that comes with Columbia that would ultimately lead people to vote Columbia over Chicago on this poll.

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:57 am

this was pretty much the point i was trying to make. Columbia has higher placement on the "most prestigious" aka "uber elite." i do understand why some people may be inclined to go for chicago, but it's just the prestige that comes with Columbia that would ultimately lead people to vote Columbia over Chicago on this poll.


That's not what what I'm saying. Columbia actually does not have the higher placement into the most selective firms. It has the higher placement into the most selective NYC firms. Really Williams and Connolly, Kellogg Huber, Munger, and Irell are all more prestigious than the NYC firms outside of Wachtell and maybe Cravath. Chicago places the same or better into these firms. On top of this Chicago places better into COA clerkships, which again is really more difficult to get than these top NYC firms. The two schools are equal in placement. The only area where CLS is more "elite" than Chicago is in lay prestige.

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Dead Ringer
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby Dead Ringer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:06 am

Columbia is in New York. Chicago is in Chicago. PM me for details.

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thesealocust
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby thesealocust » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:07 am

Dead Ringer wrote:Columbia is in New York. Chicago is in Chicago. PM me for details.


BREAKING NEWS. More at 11.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:10 am

kurama20 wrote:
this was pretty much the point i was trying to make. Columbia has higher placement on the "most prestigious" aka "uber elite." i do understand why some people may be inclined to go for chicago, but it's just the prestige that comes with Columbia that would ultimately lead people to vote Columbia over Chicago on this poll.


That's not what what I'm saying. Columbia actually does not have the higher placement into the most selective firms. It has the higher placement into the most selective NYC firms. Really Williams and Connolly, Kellogg Huber, Munger, and Irell are all more prestigious than the NYC firms outside of Wachtell and maybe Cravath. Chicago places the same or better into these firms. On top of this Chicago places better into COA clerkships, which again is really more difficult to get than these top NYC firms. The two schools are equal in placement. The only area where CLS is more "elite" than Chicago is in lay prestige.


I like to believe that this is the case. The "lay prestige" factor... just trying to figure out my best options because I'll be playing sticker price:

Whereas an education at Columbia University would cost an excess of $10,000 because of the living expenses, the University of Chicago offers an education that provides very similar Biglaw job prospects, and
Whereas Columbia University ranks higher in terms of placing grads into elite NYC firms, University of Chicago probably has a similar if not better placement in these types of firms in Chicago, and
Whereas the lay prestige at Columbia University could help me get an even larger pole stuck up my ass, I trust that the University of Chicago could boost my ego up to the sky equally well.

I just wanted to see if others had a similar assessment of the two schools.

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:15 am

PLATONiC wrote:like to believe that this is the case. The "lay prestige" factor... just trying to figure out my best options because I'll be playing sticker price:

Whereas an education at Columbia University would cost an excess of $10,000 because of the living expenses, the University of Chicago offers an education that provides very similar Biglaw job prospects, and
Whereas Columbia University ranks higher in terms of placing grads into elite NYC firms, University of Chicago probably has a similar if not better placement in these types of firms in Chicago, and
Whereas the lay prestige at Columbia University could help me get an even larger pole stuck up my ass, I trust that the University of Chicago could boost my ego up to the sky equally well.

I just wanted to see if others had a similar assessment of the two schools.


Just to make you aware (and more comfortable) none of those firms that I named as being the most selective are in Chicago. Those firms are in DC and California. But now that you mention it there are some really really elite firms in Chicago as well, where obviously UChicago dominates. Jenner and Block Chicago and Bartlit Beck Chicago (Chicago does awesome in their Denver office as well) come to mind.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:22 am

kurama20 wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:like to believe that this is the case. The "lay prestige" factor... just trying to figure out my best options because I'll be playing sticker price:

Whereas an education at Columbia University would cost an excess of $10,000 because of the living expenses, the University of Chicago offers an education that provides very similar Biglaw job prospects, and
Whereas Columbia University ranks higher in terms of placing grads into elite NYC firms, University of Chicago probably has a similar if not better placement in these types of firms in Chicago, and
Whereas the lay prestige at Columbia University could help me get an even larger pole stuck up my ass, I trust that the University of Chicago could boost my ego up to the sky equally well.

I just wanted to see if others had a similar assessment of the two schools.


Just to make you aware (and more comfortable) none of those firms that I named as being the most selective are in Chicago. Those firms are in DC and California. But now that you mention it there are some really really elite firms in Chicago as well, where obviously UChicago dominates. Jenner and Block Chicago and Bartlit Beck Chicago (Chicago does awesome in their Denver office as well) come to mind.


How would you say U of Chi compares to NYU?

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:24 am

PLATONiC wrote:How would you say U of Chi compares to NYU?


CLS and Chicago are somewhat stronger schools than NYU. It's no blowout though.

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PLATONiC
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby PLATONiC » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:26 am

kurama20 wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:How would you say U of Chi compares to NYU?


CLS and Chicago are somewhat stronger schools than NYU. It's no blowout though.


What would you say explains NYU's higher ranking? (I know it might be trivial, but I just want to know).

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Whatisthis
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby Whatisthis » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:34 am

PLATONiC wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
PLATONiC wrote:How would you say U of Chi compares to NYU?


CLS and Chicago are somewhat stronger schools than NYU. It's no blowout though.


What would you say explains NYU's higher ranking? (I know it might be trivial, but I just want to know).



I know you aren't asking me, but I think the fact that NYU has money coming out the wazoo has certainly helped it climb up the rankings (not to say it's undeserving). Also, it's better (perceived) location tends to attract students and faculty alike.

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:36 am

Whatisthis wrote:I know you aren't asking me, but I think the fact that NYU has money coming out the wazoo has certainly helped climb out the rankings (not to say it undeserving). Also, it better (perceived) location tends to attract students and faculty alike.


This. Chicago has some pretty low faculty expenditures or something like that that hurts it in the rankings. And let's be real, NYU's location is viewed by many as being far far superior to Chicago's.

If you look at US News you will actually see that Chicago has always had higher lawyer/judge and even peer assessment scores than NYU.

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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby spondee » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:57 am

kurama20 wrote:That's not what what I'm saying. Columbia actually does not have the higher placement into the most selective firms. It has the higher placement into the most selective NYC firms. Really Williams and Connolly, Kellogg Huber, Munger, and Irell are all more prestigious than the NYC firms outside of Wachtell and maybe Cravath. Chicago places the same or better into these firms. On top of this Chicago places better into COA clerkships, which again is really more difficult to get than these top NYC firms. The two schools are equal in placement. The only area where CLS is more "elite" than Chicago is in lay prestige.


It's rather disingenuous to discount Columbia's big-law placement for geographic reasons but ignore Chicago's geographic advantages in CoA clerkships. Columbia shares its home circuit with NYU and Yale; and, it's the nearest prestigious circuit to Harvard. Meanwhile, Chicago sends the large majority of its clerks to the Fifth and Seventh Circuits, where it competes primarily with NU. And Chicago sends a lot of its clerks repeatedly to the same handful of judges - three of whom are faculty members.

Neither should be discounted. Geography is one aspect of a school that heavily contributes to its strengths and weaknesses.

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kurama20
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Re: Columbia University vs. University of Chicago

Postby kurama20 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:01 am

spondee wrote:
kurama20 wrote:That's not what what I'm saying. Columbia actually does not have the higher placement into the most selective firms. It has the higher placement into the most selective NYC firms. Really Williams and Connolly, Kellogg Huber, Munger, and Irell are all more prestigious than the NYC firms outside of Wachtell and maybe Cravath. Chicago places the same or better into these firms. On top of this Chicago places better into COA clerkships, which again is really more difficult to get than these top NYC firms. The two schools are equal in placement. The only area where CLS is more "elite" than Chicago is in lay prestige.


It's rather disingenuous to discount Columbia's big-law placement for geographic reasons but ignore Chicago's geographic advantages in CoA clerkships. Columbia shares its home circuit with NYU and Yale; and, it's the nearest prestigious circuit to Harvard. Meanwhile, Chicago sends the large majority of its clerks to the Fifth and Seventh Circuits, where it competes primarily with NU. And Chicago sends a lot of its clerks repeatedly to the same handful of judges - three of whom are faculty members.

Neither should be discounted. Geography is one aspect of a school that heavily contributes to its strengths and weaknesses.


That's true and should be taken into account. Although Chicago does better on the DC and 9th circuits as well. Basically these are two schools that are so equivalent it's hard to differentiate outside of things like class size and location (and for most people this is what ends up making the decision for them).




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