teaching a man to read - PS worthy? Forum

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:16 pm

-deleted-

thanks for all the help

Cicero76 · Post by **Cicero76** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:28 pm

It has to at least in some roundabout way answer the question of 'why you want to go to law school.' This doesn't

ManoftheHour · Post by **ManoftheHour** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:29 pm

Cicero76 wrote:It has to at least in some roundabout way answer the question of 'why you want to go to law school.' This doesn't

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:35 pm

OP here:

thanks for the comments. based on this experience, i partnered with an organization my dad has been part of and I spent a summer in a foreign country going to underrepresented areas and advocated for letting their village's girls go to the cities for education and helped create programs that helped local village people in big cities network with people in their profession. furthermore, i was allowed to aid a high ranking person in this organization write a proposal for increasing literacy rates in a local village.

could i use this to spin it as a "why law"?

hurldes · Post by **hurldes** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:52 pm

That story is pretty amazing, if you ask me. You could just say that the joy you got by helping one man learn to read makes you want to help people on a broader scale. Law school can help you accomplish that. I say go for it.

fallingup77 · Post by **fallingup77** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:10 pm

This could make a great PS if done well. I totally disagree that it has to say anything at all about law. There are plenty of high quality statements that don't. Not even in a roundabout way. It needs to add something interesting or substantive about you that your raw data does not. If true, this story says a lot about you as a person.

Pneumonia · Post by **Pneumonia** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:16 pm

fallingup77 wrote:This could make a great PS if done well. I totally disagree that it has to say anything at all about law. There are plenty of high quality statements that don't. Not even in a roundabout way. It needs to add something interesting or substantive about you that your raw data does not. If true, this story says a lot about you as a person.

This is maybe technically true but is bad advice. You need to at least allude to "why law." As much as they may say otherwise, and I'm not even sure that many of them do say otherwise, adcoms want to know why you're interested in coming to law school. You don't have to say it explicitly necessarily but if your statement doesn't allow them to at least fill in the pieces for themselves then you are doing yourself a disservice.

Also, every applicant I've ever seen that didn't mention law in their PS made that point clear somewhere else in their app. It is a bad idea to neglect that question completely, as many adcoms have said on these boards in the past.

Your statement as presented wouldn't be detrimental to your application, but it could be much more compelling if you included something in it that at least vaguely points in the direction of why you want to be a lawyer.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:36 pm

Post removed.

6lehderjets · Post by **6lehderjets** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:42 pm

This is a good read.

You could definitely tie in "why law" elements into this. Your willingness to read to him and learn how to read helped him. Lawyers, too, are generally in the business of helping people.

The donations and recorded articles you got for him show that your entrepreneurial and creative. Traits that are transferrable to law.

I think the story is good, just work on making a tie-in to law school. There is a thread that includes sample personal statements. You should read to see how others have tied in life experiences with wanting to go to law school.

ETA: definitely tie in the subsequent partnership with you dad. So many PS have the generic "I enjoyed arguing and Matlock" spiel. The uniqueness of this story advantageous to you.

HRomanus · Post by **HRomanus** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:15 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:It has to at least in some roundabout way answer the question of 'why you want to go to law school.' This doesn't

I completely disagree. Can you point to any evidence of this?

Pneumonia · Post by **Pneumonia** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:29 pm

Send in a statement to Ivey without saying anything about law. The first comment you'll get is that it needs to address that point. I've worked with them and seen it literally at least a dozen times.

Maybe I'm being to literal. All I'm saying is that your app needs to point to why you want to go to law school. Not necessarily in your PS but somewhere. It doesn't mean you have to even use the word law or be at all explicit; like I said, it's a fine line. This is digressing from the OP, but I didn't want to misrepresent what I meant.

People with superbly written statements get in all the time without alluding to the law at all, but their apps would be better if they did. Doesn't mean everyone should hatchet job a shitty unrelated explanation at the end of their statement; the best apps aren't explicit about "why law" but the answer to that question is 100% apparent when you read them even though they haven't told you. So that's what to shoot for.

Mroberts3 · Post by **Mroberts3** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:54 pm

I didn't mention anything about law in my PS and performed about where I should based on my numbers. Just one data point to consider.

I honestly think the biggest downside to this story is that it is too good. I'm concerned that some adcomms might think you made this up (I'm not suggesting you did, but its just something to consider). A similar concern is that it comes across as over the top. Like what happens when hollywood takes a good story and makes it cringe worthy. Just food for thought.

ARemKit · Post by **ARemKit** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:12 pm

As a 0L (so I know nothing?) (but I did get a full-ride to a T14, so maybe a tiny something?), I definitely would write a personal statement about this.

1) You are passionate about it and 2) It "shows" rather than "tells" a million (very positive) things about you. That's pretty much ideal.

My main concern would be how to condense (or maybe, sift through) all the information into a personal statement. Because that is a really long story for a personal statement. My understanding is that a good personal statement will have a cohesive underlying focus, so every single detail is supporting your overall point. It's also important to think about where/how you begin the story and how you end it. Figuring out what is essential in the story and writing that story well is what will make it a good personal statement, not the topic.

But basically, as long as you have an excellent, well-written piece of writing about yourself, I wouldn't worry about the tie-ins to law.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:19 pm

Post removed.

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:21 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:It has to at least in some roundabout way answer the question of 'why you want to go to law school.' This doesn't

I disagree.

A lot of people ruin perfectly interesting stories about themselves by tacking on a "Why Law School" paragraph at the end that strains the flow.

Hutz_and_Goodman · Post by **Hutz_and_Goodman** » Tue May 27, 2014 10:27 pm

This is an amazing story and would make for a great statement. I think you should frame it in terms of the law though (you want to help people; or you want to do PI; or even that you just realize how empowering it can be to assist someone else with a problem).

Pneumonia · Post by **Pneumonia** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:30 pm

No worries MG I get where you're coming from, and I agree that no mention whatsoever is better than "forced and pandering." Unfortunately the exact thing that most people do when they hear that they should include some reference to the law is append a shitty paragraph to the end of their usually not-very-great PS (OP this description does not really apply to you because you write well and have what seems to be a compelling story). I think a lot of the "you don't need to include a Why Law" advice is essentially in response to that phenomenon.

Regardless of what they say, adcoms are interested in your reasons for wanting to attend their school specifically and thus law school generally. If for some reason you need evidence that adcoms are not always upfront about what they like to see in an application, then look no further than the disconnect between the claim of holistic admissions compared with an LSN graph. The "why law" thing functions in much the same way; it is something that they want to know. It's of course not nearly as determinative as numbers, and in my experience is more of a way that you can add value to your app than something that is going to detract from your app if it's not present.

papercut wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:It has to at least in some roundabout way answer the question of 'why you want to go to law school.' This doesn't
I disagree.

A lot of people ruin perfectly interesting stories about themselves by tacking on a "Why Law School" paragraph at the end that strains the flow.

Dude, there is a huge difference between "roundabout way" and a tacked on "why law" paragraph. No one every advocates for the latter, although people do seem to embrace that particular technique in alarming and unfortunate numbers. What people are saying here is that it is beneficial to avoid a situation in which an adcom reads your file, puts it down, and wonders "why the hell is this person applying to law school?" I guarantee their answer to that question is going to be less generous than your own.

As is mentioned in this thread (some) people do perform fine without addressing this issue. People also perform fine with C&F issues. That's not a great analogy but the gist is that by answering the "why law" question, rather than putting that burden on whoever reads your file, you are adding value to your application. You certainly should not compromise the quality of your writing in order to answer that question, but if you can work it in organically into your PS or into any other part of your app then your app will be better for it and your cycle/scholarships will probably reflect that.

Clearly if you are applying to law school then you have reasons for doing so, or at least you should. I think a lot of the PS-destroying final "why law" monstrosity paragraphs come from people who don't actually have a reason for wanting to go. Anyway, the point is- if you have a reason for wanting to go to law school, why would you not make an effort to communicate that reason, cohesively of course, within your application?

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Tue May 27, 2014 11:57 pm

Pneumonia wrote: Anyway, the point is- if you have a reason for wanting to go to law school, why would you not make an effort to communicate that reason, cohesively of course, within your application?

Those are some good points and I honestly don't think we disagree.

I've been hanging around the PS forum for a while, and I've yet to see a decent Why Law PS or a decent Why Law last paragraph. Usually people overreach, and have no supporting evidence for their Why Law argument in the rest of their app (e.g. relevant work on resume). I think in general they're better off without, what would probably turn out to be, an awkward pivot to Why Law.

I certainly don't think having a Why Law pivot is a requirement, which is what Cicero was saying.

If you have a reason for going to law school that's worth writing about--and most people don't--you can just submit a Why X School of Law (granting they accept such essays).

Now is it beneficial to have a cohesive well supported pivot to Why Law? Sure. I just don't think this pivot is a blanket requirement.

HRomanus · Post by **HRomanus** » Wed May 28, 2014 11:12 am

Pneumonia wrote:As is mentioned in this thread (some) people do perform fine without addressing this issue. People also perform fine with C&F issues. That's not a great analogy but the gist is that by answering the "why law" question, rather than putting that burden on whoever reads your file, you are adding value to your application. You certainly should not compromise the quality of your writing in order to answer that question, but if you can work it in organically into your PS or into any other part of your app then your app will be better for it and your cycle/scholarships will probably reflect that.

I accept that it is a good thing that an adcom knows why you want to go to law shcool. I agree that an organically driven PS to that point can be beneficial. BUT is it preferrable to choose a topic that organically leads to "Why Law" to a superior topic that does not touch on it? The only strong "Why Law" PSs I've read here and elsewhere are ones that have exceptional stories or sufficient WE or internships. In such a short medium, a "Why Law" conclusion must be the general theme or it becomes tacked on.

So: is it better to have a stronger, more personal PS or a weaker PS that organically concludes in "Why Law"? Which do you believe is more compelling for an AdCom?

Pneumonia · Post by **Pneumonia** » Wed May 28, 2014 12:11 pm

HRomanus wrote: So: is it better to have a stronger, more personal PS or a weaker PS that organically concludes in "Why Law"? Which do you believe is more compelling for an AdCom?

The former obviously but this is a dumb dilemma. You guys are repeatedly concluding that the only way to answer "why law" is to do it in a closing paragraph of a PS. All I'm saying that your app as a whole should not leave an adcom wondering why you want to go to law school. For those of us who don't have a resume that answers that question, the PS is usually the best place to do so. Again, doesn't mean to append a concluding paragraph or whatever, "organic" or otherwise.

Idk if I used that word, "organic," in my previous posts, but if I did use it or a synonym what I meant was organic to your app as a whole. I did not mean for anyone to tack on some "why law" paragraph, which I think we can all agree usually seems horribly forced even if it's done well.

I will hesitantly concede that I have read some really exceptionally well written PS's that did not do this and did not need to. A lot of those people a had resume that pointed towards law school. Those that didn't used a PS to tell a story that was actually more compelling to an adcom than a reason for attending law school. 99.99% of people do not fall into that category which is why I said "hesitantly." I've only ever read PS's of this type in books or on these forums btw.

cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Wed May 28, 2014 2:45 pm

OP here:

thank you all for the comments. from what i gather, it seems that it's better I show the characteristics that attract me to a career in law through this PS rather than a paragraph simply stating why. this makes a lot of sense. i really appreciate the ideas of how i can use this to show the characteristics that law school adComs look for.

now the real challenge, it making the PS less about the story and more about the qualities. that's going to be a challenge!

any tips/ideas how i should divide the PS up? I was thinking of it being a simple narrative and just explain the entire story in detail and when doing so focus on more of what I did and what I learned. start with a hook (thinking maybe a weird question) and conclude with the answer to that. thoughts?

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:01 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:OP here:

thank you all for the comments. from what i gather, it seems that it's better I show the characteristics that attract me to a career in law through this PS rather than a paragraph simply stating why. this makes a lot of sense. i really appreciate the ideas of how i can use this to show the characteristics that law school adComs look for.

now the real challenge, it making the PS less about the story and more about the qualities. that's going to be a challenge!

any tips/ideas how i should divide the PS up? I was thinking of it being a simple narrative and just explain the entire story in detail and when doing so focus on more of what I did and what I learned. start with a hook (thinking maybe a weird question) and conclude with the answer to that. thoughts?

This would be a mistake.

Don't ruin your story by forcing a Why Law theme in.

Go with the story, and submit an additional Why X Law School essay with a Why Law theme.

Pneumonia · Post by **Pneumonia** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:18 pm

Disagree, but it's a pretty minor point. OP you are a good writer and I'm sure you can include the law theme competently without it seeming forced if that is what you choose to do. Have some people you trust look over it and get good feedback.

I know for my own statement I initially and intentionally completely neglected the law theme altogether and literally everyone that looked at it, including several law school admissions consultants (even one from Ivey!), told me that I needed to allude to it in at least a minor way.

Papercut's point about using the the "Why X" essay as a "Why Law" stands, but be aware that not all schools accept them, and of those that do not all accept the latter kind.

I can't imagine that anyone in this thread is arguing that a well written PS that contains some allusion to the law is gonna be worse than an equally well written PS that doesn't. Their point is that a well written non-law essay is better than a poorly written law essay and I agree on that. It is entirely too easy to write a shitty PS that contains a "why law" theme, so easy in fact that the majority of them end up being done really poorly. That is why everyone is telling you to avoid even trying in the first place. I think it is worth trying; shittiness is not an inherent quality of any statement that alludes to the law. So again make sure to get lots of feedback and err on the side of understatment on that particular point.

papercut · Post by **papercut** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:22 pm

Pneumonia wrote:Disagree, but it's a pretty minor point. OP you are a good writer and I'm sure you can include the law theme competently without it seeming forced if that is what you choose to do. Have some people you trust look over it and get good feedback.

I know for my own statement I initially and intentionally completely neglected the law theme altogether and literally everyone that looked at it, including several law school admissions consultants (even one from Ivey!), told me that I needed to allude to it in at least a minor way.

Papercut's point about using the the "Why X" essay as a "Why Law" stands, but be aware that not all schools accept them, and of those that do not all accept the latter kind.

I can't imagine that anyone in this thread is arguing that a well written PS that contains some allusion to the law is gonna be worse than an equally well written PS that doesn't. Their point is that a well written non-law essay is better than a poorly written law essay and I agree on that. It is entirely too easy to write a shitty PS that contains a "why law" theme so that is why everyone is telling you to avoid even trying in the first place. I think it is worth trying, but again make sure to get lots of feedback and err on the side of understatment on that particular point.

Ok, I agree with the above. It really is a minor point. Good luck OP.

HRomanus · Post by **HRomanus** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
HRomanus wrote: So: is it better to have a stronger, more personal PS or a weaker PS that organically concludes in "Why Law"? Which do you believe is more compelling for an AdCom?
The former obviously but this is a dumb dilemma. You guys are repeatedly concluding that the only way to answer "why law" is to do it in a closing paragraph of a PS. All I'm saying that your app as a whole should not leave an adcom wondering why you want to go to law school. For those of us who don't have a resume that answers that question, the PS is usually the best place to do so. Again, doesn't mean to append a concluding paragraph or whatever, "organic" or otherwise.

Idk if I used that word, "organic," in my previous posts, but if I did use it or a synonym what I meant was organic to your app as a whole. I did not mean for anyone to tack on some "why law" paragraph, which I think we can all agree usually seems horribly forced even if it's done well.

I will hesitantly concede that I have read some really exceptionally well written PS's that did not do this and did not need to. A lot of those people a had resume that pointed towards law school. Those that didn't used a PS to tell a story that was actually more compelling to an adcom than a reason for attending law school. 99.99% of people do not fall into that category which is why I said "hesitantly." I've only ever read PS's of this type in books or on these forums btw.

I suppose I phrased my question poorly. I understand that a fundamental purpose of a PS is to convey your writing, and strong writing can be conveyed as effectively via almost any topic. But doesn't the topic also contribute to the strength of the PS? The limited medium of a PS can only really convey one topic, so to write a PS that incorporates a "Why Law" theme you must choose your topic specifically for that theme. Is it better to do that or to select a topic that is better revealing of your personality, character, and actions?

I'll make my own thread at some point so I don't hijack OPs. But I am currently deciding on topics for my new PS - should I pick a topic specifically for its ability to organically communicate "Why Law?"