Quick C&F Question

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Anonymous User
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Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:19 am

My current C&F statement:

In November of 2000, I was in my hometown of XXXX. I went out deer hunting with four friends. We continued hunting after dark with the aid of a spotlight. The game warden found us, called the sheriffs and we went to jail for a number of hours. A couple weeks later in court, we all pled no contest and received probation, a fine and community service. I paid the $250 fine, and the probation ended when I completed the community service, which was a few weeks later. I do not think there is any record of it remaining in XXXX County, and this is all I can remember from 13 years ago.

Is this about all I need to say?

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Ramius
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Ramius » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:54 am

You'll still want to put a good faith effort into finding/providing documentation of this with the C&F statement. If you can show that this was how the case was handled, it'll answer any lingering questions. This statement makes it sound like you didn't do your due diligence to find out if any paperwork exists in the matter. A simple call to the County Courthouse records will tell if there is anything out there on you.

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JuTMSY4
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby JuTMSY4 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:53 am

matthewsean85 wrote:You'll still want to put a good faith effort into finding/providing documentation of this with the C&F statement. If you can show that this was how the case was handled, it'll answer any lingering questions. This statement makes it sound like you didn't do your due diligence to find out if any paperwork exists in the matter. A simple call to the County Courthouse records will tell if there is anything out there on you.


credited. You'll need to hunt this stuff down for the bar anyway

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:56 am

Currently hunting. It's not proving to be terribly difficult. What would you do when you have the data? Provide docket #? Or just spell out what the disposition was and say additional documentation can be provided upon request?

*Edit-Cannot believe I used the word hunting above given the subject. Odd.

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Magical Trevor
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Magical Trevor » Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:46 pm

It only really would have been bad if you'd said you were currently spotlighting.

Definitely make it apparent that you've done everything possible to track down the records.

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:03 am

I was able to track down the records. They're mailing me the all the facts and the disposition, since the court case happened before they started inputting everything electronically. Would you include any of those documents or simply provide the data in the writing piece? If the latter, would you say documentation can be made available upon request? Or simply provide the facts and be ready with the documentation in case anyone wants to ask?

Thanks.

Void
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Void » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:I was able to track down the records. They're mailing me the all the facts and the disposition, since the court case happened before they started inputting everything electronically. Would you include any of those documents or simply provide the data in the writing piece? If the latter, would you say documentation can be made available upon request? Or simply provide the facts and be ready with the documentation in case anyone wants to ask?

Thanks.


I would say "see attached documentation," and include copies of everything you have. The best way to handle this is to be as forthcoming as you can possibly be, and definitely lean towards offering too much information rather than too little. Also, I would recommend adding your specific charge to your narrative. Like, "The game warden found us and called the sheriffs. We were charged with [hunting at night? improper use of flashlights? IDK] and we went to jail for a number of hours."

The reason I recommend this approach is that to a first-time reader, it is a little jarring to enter into this story about dudes in the woods at night with guns, and then not really know exactly why you were arrested. Did you shoot someone? Did you have a backpack full of cocaine and body parts? I mean it's obvious from the context that it was just a violation of some kind of hunting statute, but I think it would put the reader more at ease to figure this out sooner.

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:09 am

How does this sound?

In November of 2000, I was home from college on Thanksgiving break. I went deer hunting with four friends. We continued hunting after dark with the aid of a spotlight. The game warden found us and called the sheriffs who arrested us. We stayed in jail until the following morning. I went to court on December XX of that year and pled guilty to hunting deer at night. I received a $270 fine, 30 hours of community service and probation. Probation ended upon completion of community service and the county would close my case. I finished my community service the following month and the county terminated the probation.

The clerk informed me that she would put the data she had on letterhead, but all she found was a two-sentence blurb with the information above. She is mailing it to me.

Will this C&F statement suffice?

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szb5058
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby szb5058 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:54 am

I think this article will prove useful for you: http://lawschooladvice.com/how-to-write ... -addendum/

Talks all about when you should (or shouldn't) write a C&F, gives examples, tips, and the whole bit.

Good luck!

Void
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:How does this sound?

In November of 2000, I was home from college on Thanksgiving break. I went deer hunting with four friends. We continued hunting after dark with the aid of a spotlight. The game warden found us and called the sheriffs who arrested us. We stayed in jail until the following morning. I went to court on December XX of that year and pled guilty to hunting deer at night. I received a $270 fine, 30 hours of community service and probation. Probation ended upon completion of community service and the county would close my case. I finished my community service the following month and the county terminated the probation.

The clerk informed me that she would put the data she had on letterhead, but all she found was a two-sentence blurb with the information above. She is mailing it to me.

Will this C&F statement suffice?


Sounds ok to me. The idea is to just disclose everything you possibly can. As long as this includes every relevant detail available to you, what else can you do?

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:15 am

"the county would close my case." - huh?

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szb5058
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby szb5058 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:34 am

I'd also give the exact date...not just "November 2000"

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:13 pm

Void wrote:Sounds ok to me. The idea is to just disclose everything you possibly can. As long as this includes every relevant detail available to you, what else can you do?


Someone finally walked down in some basement somewhere and made a copy of all the data they had and mailed it to me. There isn't much to add, but at least I now have a docket number and the actual offenses (hunting with the aid of a spotlight, discharging a firearm while hunting at night). I'll attach what I have with a slightly updated statement.

Artist wrote:"the county would close my case." - huh?


Yeah, I'm correcting this. By that, I meant my probation (when I completed 30 hours).

szb5058 wrote:I'd also give the exact date...not just "November 2000"

I asked if they had it, and they can't find it anywhere. I could almost certainly narrow it down to within 2-3 days, but I'd be guessing. It's not on any document they provided me. I did say it was while on Thanksgiving break.

Void
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Void wrote:Sounds ok to me. The idea is to just disclose everything you possibly can. As long as this includes every relevant detail available to you, what else can you do?


Someone finally walked down in some basement somewhere and made a copy of all the data they had and mailed it to me. There isn't much to add, but at least I now have a docket number and the actual offenses (hunting with the aid of a spotlight, discharging a firearm while hunting at night). I'll attach what I have with a slightly updated statement.

Artist wrote:"the county would close my case." - huh?


Yeah, I'm correcting this. By that, I meant my probation (when I completed 30 hours).

szb5058 wrote:I'd also give the exact date...not just "November 2000"

I asked if they had it, and they can't find it anywhere. I could almost certainly narrow it down to within 2-3 days, but I'd be guessing. It's not on any document they provided me. I did say it was while on Thanksgiving break.


You can use the old "on or about" language that is so often used & abused in police reports. "On or about November XX, 2000, I was..."

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:19 pm

If nothing has a date on it, I would honestly just guess a date. They aren't going to check it to make sure its right, and no one will ever care if they somehow find out that you're off by a day, but simply giving a wide timeframe makes it seem like you thought the entire matter was trivial... not an impression you wanna give adcoms

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:24 pm

ArtistOfManliness wrote:If nothing has a date on it, I would honestly just guess a date. They aren't going to check it to make sure its right, and no one will ever care if they somehow find out that you're off by a day, but simply giving a wide timeframe makes it seem like you thought the entire matter was trivial... not an impression you wanna give adcoms


Copy all. I'll provide a date (and I'm pretty sure it's the correct one, albeit an educated guess). Thanks!

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szb5058
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby szb5058 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:10 pm

ArtistOfManliness wrote:If nothing has a date on it, I would honestly just guess a date. They aren't going to check it to make sure its right, and no one will ever care if they somehow find out that you're off by a day, but simply giving a wide timeframe makes it seem like you thought the entire matter was trivial... not an impression you wanna give adcoms


I definitely wouldn't make up a date haha it's not THAT big of a deal. Making stuff up, anything at all for that matter, on your CHARACTER AND FITNESS section probably isn't sending the right message, even if there's less than no chance they ever look into it. If you don't have the actual date I think saying "November of 2000" is more than sufficient.

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:15 pm

szb5058 wrote:
ArtistOfManliness wrote:If nothing has a date on it, I would honestly just guess a date. They aren't going to check it to make sure its right, and no one will ever care if they somehow find out that you're off by a day, but simply giving a wide timeframe makes it seem like you thought the entire matter was trivial... not an impression you wanna give adcoms


I definitely wouldn't make up a date haha it's not THAT big of a deal. Making stuff up, anything at all for that matter, on your CHARACTER AND FITNESS section probably isn't sending the right message, even if there's less than no chance they ever look into it. If you don't have the actual date I think saying "November of 2000" is more than sufficient.


If you want adcoms to think that you don't give a rats flying fuck about that fact that you broke the law...

NYstate
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby NYstate » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:19 pm

I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:39 pm

NYstate wrote:I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.


It's unsportsmanlike... the deer thought they were in a timeout!

Void
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Void » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:39 pm

NYstate wrote:I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.


I'm not sure if this is a joke, but I think adcomms will likely look at this offense as being about as serious as running a red light or maybe illegally setting off firecrackers at the beach- I think a solemn apology/statement about remorse might come across as disingenuous because this is a super-lame misdemeanor. It would be like saying "I failed to stop at a stop sign, and I now recognize the error of my ways and promise never to do it again." Meh.

NYstate
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby NYstate » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:46 pm

Void wrote:
NYstate wrote:I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.


I'm not sure if this is a joke, but I think adcomms will likely look at this offense as being about as serious as running a red light or maybe illegally setting off firecrackers at the beach- I think a solemn apology/statement about remorse might come across as disingenuous because this is a super-lame misdemeanor. It would be like saying "I failed to stop at a stop sign, and I now recognize the error of my ways and promise never to do it again." Meh.


Given the punishment I am sure you are correct. I know nothing about hunting.
Hopefully the ad comms aren't filled with idiots like me.

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:56 pm

NYstate wrote:I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.


You find it hard to believe that a 32-year-old can't remember the exact date from an incident 13 years ago (out of a range of a couple possible days)? I didn't do hard time. We were interviewed for a bit, sat in the group cell in a rural area together for a few hours, ate pancakes, chatted with the sheriffs (two who were related to one of the country boys I was with), and went home. We were fined a couple hundred dollars and had to do community service.

I can throw a line in there about never having been in trouble since of any kind, but since I'm disclosing something from 13 years ago and nothing else, I thought that would be evident. Additionally, I thought it would feel cheesy (and I just saw that Void echoed that sentiment).

Incidentally, the deer wasn't sleeping. The land we were on was land we could have hunted on during the day. We simply broke the law by hunting at night and using a spotlight instead of the sun.

As it turns out, the 300th person I've talked to finally got resourceful and dug out the date of the incident. So the date is now a non-issue!

NYstate
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby NYstate » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
NYstate wrote:I find it hard to believe that you don't remember the date of the night you spent in jail.
One of your friends or family must know.

Also shouldn't your statement say something about not doing this again? Or not being in trouble again? ( not sure if this is required) I'm from the city but illegally hunting deer while they are sleeping seems sketch.


You find it hard to believe that a 32-year-old can't remember the exact date from an incident 13 years ago (out of a range of a couple possible days)? I didn't do hard time. We were interviewed for a bit, sat in the group cell in a rural area together for a few hours, ate pancakes, chatted with the sheriffs (two who were related to one of the country boys I was with), and went home. We were fined a couple hundred dollars and had to do community service.

I can throw a line in there about never having been in trouble since of any kind, but since I'm disclosing something from 13 years ago and nothing else, I thought that would be evident. Additionally, I thought it would feel cheesy (and I just saw that Void echoed that sentiment).

Incidentally, the deer wasn't sleeping. The land we were on was land we could have hunted on during the day. We simply broke the law by hunting at night and using a spotlight instead of the sun.

As it turns out, the 300th person I've talked to finally got resourceful and dug out the date of the incident. So the date is now a non-issue!


Ah my bad, I forgot it was so long ago. I'm sure the hassle of disclosing and getting the information will be the biggest problem you have with this. No one is going to think twice about it. Sorry.

By the way, I'm sure you are doing this, but just make a couple of copies of the information you get and throw it in a file for when you have to apply for the bar C &F.

Good luck.

Anonymous User
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Re: Quick C&F Question

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:49 am

No worries NYstate. Yeah, I'm scanning copies of everything I have and strategically placing them in my computer, various storage drives and an email folder so I don't lose track of them.

Thanks all for the help!




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