Mentioning Religion

(Personal Statement Examples, Advice, Critique, . . . )
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Knock
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Knock » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:51 pm

oshberg28 wrote:Georgetown is Jesuit.


I knew that it was affiliated with that faith, but I hadn't heard it mentioned as having a strong religious culture on the level of say, ND, Baylor and other schools. I'm not saying that it isn't, i'm just saying I hadn't really heard of it in that manner.

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oshberg28
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby oshberg28 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:54 pm

Knockglock wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Georgetown is Jesuit.


I knew that it was affiliated with that faith, but I hadn't heard it mentioned as having a strong religious culture on the level of say, ND, Baylor and other schools. I'm not saying that it isn't, i'm just saying I hadn't really heard of it in that manner.


Gotcha - well, I think mentioning religion in a PS (if it's Catholic or Christian) wouldn't hurt for the schools I mentioned (as long as it isn't overboard or weird); it may for those who don't have a religious affiliation.

For example, I'm applying to ND and part of my "Why ND" statement deals with my Catholic upbringing and attending a Jesuit high school.

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Knock
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Knock » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:57 pm

oshberg28 wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Georgetown is Jesuit.


I knew that it was affiliated with that faith, but I hadn't heard it mentioned as having a strong religious culture on the level of say, ND, Baylor and other schools. I'm not saying that it isn't, i'm just saying I hadn't really heard of it in that manner.


Gotcha - well, I think mentioning religion in a PS (if it's Catholic or Christian) wouldn't hurt for the schools I mentioned (as long as it isn't overboard or weird); it may for those who don't have a religious affiliation.

For example, I'm applying to ND and part of my "Why ND" statement deals with my Catholic upbringing and attending a Jesuit high school.


Yeah, I think that would be a solid reason why someone would want to attend ND. I don't think mentioning religion is always bad, but it is a touchy subject, and in general you don't want your PS (or any part of your application) to offend anyone or rub someone the wrong way. It's just not a good risk/reward value in my opinion. But I would agree that what you're planning on doing sounds like it would be a solid and strong statement, as long as you said, it wasn't overboard or weird, which i'm sure it won't be :).

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oshberg28
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby oshberg28 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:01 pm

Knockglock wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:
Knockglock wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Georgetown is Jesuit.


I knew that it was affiliated with that faith, but I hadn't heard it mentioned as having a strong religious culture on the level of say, ND, Baylor and other schools. I'm not saying that it isn't, i'm just saying I hadn't really heard of it in that manner.


Gotcha - well, I think mentioning religion in a PS (if it's Catholic or Christian) wouldn't hurt for the schools I mentioned (as long as it isn't overboard or weird); it may for those who don't have a religious affiliation.

For example, I'm applying to ND and part of my "Why ND" statement deals with my Catholic upbringing and attending a Jesuit high school.


Yeah, I think that would be a solid reason why someone would want to attend ND. I don't think mentioning religion is always bad, but it is a touchy subject, and in general you don't want your PS (or any part of your application) to offend anyone or rub someone the wrong way. It's just not a good risk/reward value in my opinion. But I would agree that what you're planning on doing sounds like it would be a solid and strong statement, as long as you said, it wasn't overboard or weird, which i'm sure it won't be :).


Haha - agreed. You definitely want to play it safe.

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2807
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby 2807 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:16 pm

The main issue is that your PS is not a PS--- It is a life story.

You will benefit from a little homework on what a PS is supposed to be. You assumed a nice little synopsis of your life, motivation, and achievements is a PS. That is wrong. And--that is why a good one is hard to write.

You need to focus on one event, issue, moment, or item and build two pages, double spaced, 12pt font, around that. WIth good, clean, declarative sentences. No passive stuff. Assert your statement! -- but before you can assert it-- You have to define it-- START THERE.

Even if you choose to define it as " Jesus told me so,", then stick with that small snapshot of a focused concept--- and claw out two coherent pages.

I think you are all over the place for two reasons:

1. You did not read the directions before you started (welcome to the club-- easily fixed)

2. It is very hard to write a coherent two page PS on how Jesus directed you here, and why that makes you a value--and not a liability.

Remember, it is faith not fact. If I had had the same faith in a head of lettuce would my PS be strong or weak? To some of us this PS is considered in the same capacity. And that is not good. That is a risk you take with the ad-com that reads this. Will they be impressed? Is that risk worth it? NO.

Hitler was a Christian, Jim Jones was a Christian, The South declared themselves " a Christian nation" with the Lord's blessing of their slaves. Do not wave the Christian flag and expect people to confer respect, honor, and so forth. History is no friend to Christianity. I say this is way too risky. Unless you are going to a Christian school that requires this level of faith. And then I say... good luck.

Try a PS on: drive, ambition, family, education, leadership, valor, dreams, achievement, lessons learned, charity, or compassion. If a final draft on every other topic you can think of does not work.... then try religion. Even then, I would only emphasize the good that comes from your religious beliefs, and not the belief itself--

You know, the good part-- that has nothing to do with religion like: drive, ambition, family, education, leadership, valor, dreams, achievement, lessons learned, charity, or compassion.


**edit**: You do sound like a nice guy, nice family, great work ethics and results. Accentuate those admirable qualities. You will not be diminishing your faith by accentuating these other qualities. The goal here is to get you into the law school you desire. You can do that without the religion link. You have plenty of real-life to pull from. Relax, and come back with a new one.

People here are very helpful.... Blunt, but helpful.
Last edited by 2807 on Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marionberry
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Marionberry » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Just as a note regarding the comments about how it might play well at Baylor, it probably wouldn't. I know people who have attended/do attend Baylor Law, and none of them are particularly religious. The law school is pretty far removed from the religiosity of the undergrad institution, from everything I've heard.

Religion, as its used in this personal statement, is unlikely to help at any school.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:51 pm

2807 wrote:The main issue is that your PS is not a PS--- It is a life story.

You will benefit from a little homework on what a PS is supposed to be. You assumed a nice little synopsis of your life, motivation, and achievements is a PS. That is wrong. And--that is why a good one is hard to write.

You need to focus on one event, issue, moment, or item and build two pages, double spaced, 12pt font, around that. WIth good, clean, declarative sentences. No passive stuff. Assert your statement! -- but before you can assert it-- You have to define it-- START THERE.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this. I wrote my PS as a life story, explaining my life as a journey and why law school was clearly the right next step forward for me. I had great success that way; the trick is having a life story worth reading about. But it was exactly what you described, a synopsis of my life, accomplishments, and achievements, and because I had good things to talk about in it and I wrote it well, it worked well.

There is no hard and fast rule about personal statements like you're alleging. For a lot of people writing your life story in two pages isn't the best thing they could do, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Maybe for this poster it's not the best move, but I wanted to say something in case people read your post and got the impression the life-story-arc type of PS is forbidden. It's clearly not.

Burger in a can
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Burger in a can » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:19 pm

2807 wrote:Remember, it is faith not fact. If I had had the same faith in a head of lettuce would my PS be strong or weak? To some of us this PS is considered in the same capacity. And that is not good. That is a risk you take with the ad-com that reads this. Will they be impressed? Is that risk worth it? NO.


I agree with this. I am a staunch atheist, and although I wholeheartedly support anyone's right to believe whatever they want, I found this personal statement to be problematic. If I were on an admissions committee it wouldn't turn me off that an applicant is Christian but I would be a little hesitant to appreciate the idea that an applicant is interested in law school because his god so compels him. Aside from the fact that I don't share the belief, it just strikes me as kind of a cop-out. To me this is the equivalent of saying you want to attend law school because your mom told you to be interested in law. You might disagree, and probably will (because you place a higher value on the invisible man in the sky than you do on your mom) but you should know that there's a good chance that the admissions committee will be on my side of this issue. Good luck though!

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2807
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby 2807 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:54 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
2807 wrote:The main issue is that your PS is not a PS--- It is a life story.

You will benefit from a little homework on what a PS is supposed to be. You assumed a nice little synopsis of your life, motivation, and achievements is a PS. That is wrong. And--that is why a good one is hard to write.

You need to focus on one event, issue, moment, or item and build two pages, double spaced, 12pt font, around that. WIth good, clean, declarative sentences. No passive stuff. Assert your statement! -- but before you can assert it-- You have to define it-- START THERE.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this. I wrote my PS as a life story, explaining my life as a journey and why law school was clearly the right next step forward for me. I had great success that way; the trick is having a life story worth reading about. But it was exactly what you described, a synopsis of my life, accomplishments, and achievements, and because I had good things to talk about in it and I wrote it well, it worked well.

There is no hard and fast rule about personal statements like you're alleging. For a lot of people writing your life story in two pages isn't the best thing they could do, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Maybe for this poster it's not the best move, but I wanted to say something in case people read your post and got the impression the life-story-arc type of PS is forbidden. It's clearly not.



Hey, good job! There you go OP. There is hope. I stand corrected.

vyelps
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby vyelps » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:07 pm

Mentioning religion could make for a great PS. The problem is that this PS is very poorly written. I have no idea really how religion affects this person's life in any meaningful sense. And the last part about Christ commanding you to understand the Constitution is both unoriginal and gimmicky. There is plenty of room in law school classrooms for religiously devout Christians but you have done noting in this PS to demonstrate what value you would add to the discourse.

tgedamu
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby tgedamu » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:46 pm

Wow,
So many different ideas.

Burger in a can
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Burger in a can » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:27 pm

tgedamu wrote:Wow,
So many different ideas.


Welcome to the internet.

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northwood
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby northwood » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:58 pm

its okay to mention religion. I would write about how your faith has helped influence you to do community service, or something. Yes, there are grammatical errors and spelling mistakes in it, but i would tone it down a bit. I dont think its a good idea to express your viewpoints ina personal statement. You dont know the person who reads it, and the last thing you want to do is make a negative impression.

Im sure since religion is a major aspect of your life you can write about how it has helped influece you to be a better member of your community, and go from there.

2011Law
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby 2011Law » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:05 pm

Ildeuce wrote: If I were an adcomm, I literally would begin laughing at the "christ commands me to do this" line and move on to another applicant. I know that comes off as offensive but I'm just trying to be honest with you. There is a difference between wearing your religion on your sleeve and awkwardly forcing on another person who probably doesn't care to hear about it.


I thought the exact same thing. There are definitely places that talking about religion in OPs PS makes sense, but I am not sure I would want to have to teach an ultra-religious student (from the PS, OP comes of as someone who might start ranting about religion in the middle of lecture).

CredoUtIntellegam
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby CredoUtIntellegam » Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Here are two suggestions to improve your PS:

1. Improve its flow structurally and substantively. In its current state, paragraphs 1 and 5 have no connection to the rest of the statement. Similarly substantively, you made a few jumps that were confusing. For example, you weren't raised in a religious home but you became a Christian without anymore explanation as to why. Also, you jump from recognizing that a job in food service could not support a family to studying biblical theology. If you're trying to support a family, why study biblical theology? Furthermore, you say that during your last semester you realized you wanted to become an attorney. But, what led to that realization?

2. Narrow your topic. Choose a particular event or anecdote and write about it in a that way reflects who you are. You don't have space to tell your life story so choose a story that you believe reflects who you are. The story you choose or how you choose to tell it should be a microcosm of your life so that your readers get a sense of the whole (you) from the part (your PS). By taking this approach, you readers will get a better sense of the person behind the words on the page. All of this is not to say that you can't make mention of various aspects of your life, but, depending on what you choose to write about, make mention is about all you'll get to do. One more thing, HOW you tell your story is as important, if not more so, as WHAT you choose to talk about. Does your writing demonstrate that you are thoughtful or thoughtless, active or passive, self-aggrandizing or self-deprecating? These are all various personal qualities that can be reflected in your PS without you ever having to use those words or their synonyms to describe yourself. They shine through in the ways you choose to DESCRIBE your view of the world and how you RELATE to it and the other people who occupy it.

HyeMart
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby HyeMart » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:22 am

I SEEK TO OBEY CHRIST, HI YA HUM BA HI YA HUM BA

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BigBuckey
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby BigBuckey » Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:40 pm

Thank you for your comments. Some of you are obviously jerks and give no indication of why you think it is a bad personal statement. Others mentioned that there are grammatical errors without specifying where these errors might exist. The fourth sentence appears grammatically correct to me.

I have read the e-book that Ken has published along with dozens of other personal statements and am personally sick of the narrow topics that some of the writers have chosen. I elected to write a life-story type to illustrate that I am a hard worker, an intellectual, and am highly motivated. I realize there are a couple of sentences that do not flow well - this is a rough draft. I also understand that I made some decisions in my life that could cause one to question my motivation (what caused me to become a Christian, why did I decide to study law and pursue a legal career, and why would I study theology at AC rather than seeking a more career-oriented degree). These were good points and I will certainly attempt to clarify my motivation behind those decisions. I do feel that studying theology has increased my ability to read critically and actively and has taught me to write well.

The last paragraph is not meant to say that I am a brainwashed individual who copied this from a baptist tract. Its purpose is to show the admission committee that I am motivated by love and not money or fame. Because I love my neighbor, I want to provide them with outstanding legal service at a fair price and not practice law immorally (this also implies that I believe in an objective morality).

Is it really a serious "no-no" to write such a broad personal statement? I'll consider this and gladly receive any USEFUL criticism that you have to offer. It does NO GOOD to flippantly state "This is a bad PS". Tell me why, quote from my PS, and give me reason to believe what you're saying is good advice.

Burger in a can
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Burger in a can » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:00 pm

BigBuckey wrote: I want to provide [people] with outstanding legal service at a fair price.


This is getting closer to how you should be wording it. It's a lot better than writing that jebus told you to be a lawyer, because most people won't make the connection between the purely religious motivation and this, more secularly applicable one.

By the way, if you post your personal statement online for public review, you're not really in a place to be critical of the shitty feedback you might get. When someone says "this PS sucks" your first reaction could be, "hmmm, what if an adcomm thinks the same thing?" Instead, you attempt to lecture the anonymous masses about their behavior. Internet rule #465: lecturing trolls never works.






P.S. there is no god.

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Marionberry
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby Marionberry » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:12 pm

Oh dear, here it comes...

hijodehombre
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby hijodehombre » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:16 pm

I just talked to God. She doesn't like your PS.

Seriously, though, "I want to be a lawyer because I love my neighbor" and I know that if I am struck on one cheek, I will "turn the other cheek" because "we are all God's children" and "we must serve the Lord". These aren't your own words and they are not values exclusive to Christianity. Plenty of people who don't believe in God practice peace, don't seek revenge when offended and seek for a universalism that unites us all as human beings. My point is that if you expect some people to automatically make a connection between religion and it's positive values, you should also expect other people to make a connection between religion and it's negative history.

DreamShake
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby DreamShake » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:54 pm

If an entire essay is poorly written, you can't really cite specific passages the writer needs to improve without citing the entire essay...which would be a little redundant. I think there are very few absolute taboo structures/topics for a personal statement, so I wouldn't say a broad PS is necessarily horrible. It just can't read like a CV. Addressing the points you just mentioned should help develop the narrative and make it more stomachable.

If you really want specific critique, though, I'll give you this tidbit:

You jump from discussing your work at a company that facilitates waste disposal for factory farms to an unsolicited/random tangent on jesus that is injected with an implicit claim of good character. Any adcomm who is marginally knowledgeable about factory farms/corporate food industry will instantly realize you're complicit in the brutal exploitation and suffering of literally billions of animals. At that point, you lose all credibility. The subsequent spiel on jesus only reinforces the image of an ignorant, self-righteous fool. That should generally justify tossing your app into the trash can. You should either delete the part on working for horrific animal rights abusers or the part on jesus. Or, preferably, both.

BigBuckey wrote:Enviro-Ag provides engineering, compliance, and permitting services to dairies and feedlots around the Texas panhandle and in the Stephenville area. These facilities produce thousands of tons of manure and millions of gallons of wastewater that they apply to their crops as fertilizer. While this certainly aids the plants by supplying an organic fertilizer, there are strict federal and state regulations concerning the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus that can be applied in order to prevent groundwater contamination. I am currently in the final stages of implementing a web based data management solution for these facilities that will allow them to know how much nitrogen and phosphorus they have applied to date and how much they are allowed to apply. This system will not only save the dairy and feedlot industry time and money, it will aid in the prevention of groundwater contamination.

Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. I have the intellect, experience, and determination that is necessary to excel in a rigorous law school program. More importantly, I seek to obey Christ’s command by increasing my knowledge of the Constitution and its application and by helping people with their legal situations.

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2ofspades
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby 2ofspades » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:38 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
2807 wrote:The main issue is that your PS is not a PS--- It is a life story.

You will benefit from a little homework on what a PS is supposed to be. You assumed a nice little synopsis of your life, motivation, and achievements is a PS. That is wrong. And--that is why a good one is hard to write.

You need to focus on one event, issue, moment, or item and build two pages, double spaced, 12pt font, around that. WIth good, clean, declarative sentences. No passive stuff. Assert your statement! -- but before you can assert it-- You have to define it-- START THERE.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this. I wrote my PS as a life story, explaining my life as a journey and why law school was clearly the right next step forward for me. I had great success that way; the trick is having a life story worth reading about. But it was exactly what you described, a synopsis of my life, accomplishments, and achievements, and because I had good things to talk about in it and I wrote it well, it worked well.

There is no hard and fast rule about personal statements like you're alleging. For a lot of people writing your life story in two pages isn't the best thing they could do, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Maybe for this poster it's not the best move, but I wanted to say something in case people read your post and got the impression the life-story-arc type of PS is forbidden. It's clearly not.

My experience exactly. If you have a Compelling Life Story, your statements are the correct place to put it.

The problem in this case is that the PS is not developed enough. The various elements discussed do not fit together in a cohesive or thematic way. Thus, the statement lacks focus.

BigBuckey wrote:It was my faith in Christ that led me to academia in the first place. ...

I learned how to study and interpret the Bible, write exegetical research papers, and study the Greek New Testament. During my last semester, I realized that I wanted to study law and be an attorney.

I think the real story here, if you do still want to write about religion, is how studying biblical theology and exegesis at Amarillo sparked your interest in law and caused you to transfer to A&M. The other elements of the essay either will not be of concern to adcomms or will already appear in your resume. But a focused statement on your decision to transfer - on how your religious studies informed your interest in polisci and on why you consider the ideas in those subject ares to be related - could potentially be persuasive if done in a well-written and respectful manner.

CredoUtIntellegam
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby CredoUtIntellegam » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:26 pm

Burger in a can wrote:

P.S. there is no god.


Subtle Stephen Hawking trolling.

d34d9823
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:13 am

BigBuckey wrote:Thank you for your comments. Some of you are obviously jerks and give no indication of why you think it is a bad personal statement. Others mentioned that there are grammatical errors without specifying where these errors might exist. The fourth sentence appears grammatically correct to me.

I have read the e-book that Ken has published along with dozens of other personal statements and am personally sick of the narrow topics that some of the writers have chosen. I elected to write a life-story type to illustrate that I am a hard worker, an intellectual, and am highly motivated. I realize there are a couple of sentences that do not flow well - this is a rough draft. I also understand that I made some decisions in my life that could cause one to question my motivation (what caused me to become a Christian, why did I decide to study law and pursue a legal career, and why would I study theology at AC rather than seeking a more career-oriented degree). These were good points and I will certainly attempt to clarify my motivation behind those decisions. I do feel that studying theology has increased my ability to read critically and actively and has taught me to write well.

The last paragraph is not meant to say that I am a brainwashed individual who copied this from a baptist tract. Its purpose is to show the admission committee that I am motivated by love and not money or fame. Because I love my neighbor, I want to provide them with outstanding legal service at a fair price and not practice law immorally (this also implies that I believe in an objective morality).

Is it really a serious "no-no" to write such a broad personal statement? I'll consider this and gladly receive any USEFUL criticism that you have to offer. It does NO GOOD to flippantly state "This is a bad PS". Tell me why, quote from my PS, and give me reason to believe what you're saying is good advice.

I think not.

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bk1
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Re: Mentioning Religion

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:57 am

BigBuckey wrote:Thank you for your comments. Some of you are obviously jerks and give no indication of why you think it is a bad personal statement. Others mentioned that there are grammatical errors without specifying where these errors might exist. The fourth sentence appears grammatically correct to me.

I have read the e-book that Ken has published along with dozens of other personal statements and am personally sick of the narrow topics that some of the writers have chosen. I elected to write a life-story type to illustrate that I am a hard worker, an intellectual, and am highly motivated. I realize there are a couple of sentences that do not flow well - this is a rough draft. I also understand that I made some decisions in my life that could cause one to question my motivation (what caused me to become a Christian, why did I decide to study law and pursue a legal career, and why would I study theology at AC rather than seeking a more career-oriented degree). These were good points and I will certainly attempt to clarify my motivation behind those decisions. I do feel that studying theology has increased my ability to read critically and actively and has taught me to write well.

The last paragraph is not meant to say that I am a brainwashed individual who copied this from a baptist tract. Its purpose is to show the admission committee that I am motivated by love and not money or fame. Because I love my neighbor, I want to provide them with outstanding legal service at a fair price and not practice law immorally (this also implies that I believe in an objective morality).

Is it really a serious "no-no" to write such a broad personal statement? I'll consider this and gladly receive any USEFUL criticism that you have to offer. It does NO GOOD to flippantly state "This is a bad PS". Tell me why, quote from my PS, and give me reason to believe what you're saying is good advice.


1. You list a bunch of stuff that is completely irrelevant: the year you become religious, the year you got married, that you got married, the year your kid was born, his name, etc, etc. Nobody cares. It has no value to your PS. Cut it. Realize that just because you care about things doesn't mean an AdComm wants to hear about it.

2. You mention ridiculously typical conservative talking points: family, religion, Ronald Reagon, the Constitution, the framers, being working class, etc. Did you just watch Glenn Beck prior to writing this PS? While religion, family, being working class, etc would be fine on their own, when amalgamated with all the other talking points all you do is reinforce yourself as a pedestrian conservative American who eats up what pundits say. It makes you seem stupid, ignorant, and without a mind of your own.

3. You regurgitate your resume. 'Nuff said.

4. You talk about your programming like it is a serious accomplishment. Honestly it isn't. Most people who have any sort of programming experience would find it underwhelming. On top of that, you mention version numbers like you think it has any sort of relevance to AdComms.

5. Your conclusion is cliche. If you are going to mention religion, be able to talk about it in a profound way, not in the same exact words you would hear from some backwater hick. Also, don't go out of your way to make it seem like you are obsessed with your religion even if you are. You should avoid mentioning the fact that your son is named after a mythical character and saying things along the lines of "Jesus > all" because it makes you seem like an OCD Bible-thumper. Whether you are or not, I doubt AdComms would consider that a plus.

There, ya happy now?




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