Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:27 am

So an industry in which women call the shots and are the primary benefactors is derogatory toward them?

I'm sure Jenna Jameson was very upset over the derogatory nature of her work as she raked in millions.

You're not being feminist. You're being a conservative American.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:32 am

kalvano wrote:So an industry in which women call the shots and are the primary benefactors is derogatory toward them?

I'm sure Jenna Jameson was very upset over the derogatory nature of her work as she raked in millions.

You're not being feminist. You're being a conservative American.


It's not about the effect on the individual women in the industry, it is about the effect on women as a whole. And although I don't consider myself a conservative, I'm not sure the term warrants being used as an insult.

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:38 am

I take it you're a woman? If not, it still applies.

What effect has porn had on you? Or on women? Some women choose to make their living that way. Others do not. It's no different than being a lawyer or a cop or a professional dancer, except it pays better.

You're attaching a stigma based on your perception. If you were really a feminist, you wouldn't stigmatize a woman for voluntarily choosing what could be a fairly lucrative career because you don't approve of it.

I also wasn't insulting you by calling you conservative. Attitudes like yours are typically American. We as a country are very prudish and uptight when it comes to sex.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:43 am

kalvano wrote:I take it you're a woman? If not, it still applies.

What effect has porn had on you? Or on women? Some women choose to make their living that way. Others do not. It's no different than being a lawyer or a cop or a professional dancer, except it pays better.

You're attaching a stigma based on your perception. If you were really a feminist, you wouldn't stigmatize a woman for voluntarily choosing what could be a fairly lucrative career because you don't approve of it.

I also wasn't insulting you by calling you conservative. Attitudes like yours are typically American. We as a country are very prudish and uptight when it comes to sex.


Porn typically is very detrimental to women because it takes away the woman's choice to say "no". The viewer knows the woman will end up having sex, so even if she says no the viewer knows ultimately that means "yes". The consequence is that men become desensitized to sexual violence, or begin to believe that "no means yes". Both are almost the norm in American society today. To answer your first question, the effect is indirect so it is difficult to pinpoint exactly, but let me point to the fact that women are still regularly being sexually abused and regularly being unable to prosecute their perpetrators as evidence.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:46 am

Anyway, I'm exhausted and off to bed. Thanks for debating with me though :)

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BigA
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby BigA » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:50 am

artichoke88 wrote:
kalvano wrote:I take it you're a woman? If not, it still applies.

What effect has porn had on you? Or on women? Some women choose to make their living that way. Others do not. It's no different than being a lawyer or a cop or a professional dancer, except it pays better.

You're attaching a stigma based on your perception. If you were really a feminist, you wouldn't stigmatize a woman for voluntarily choosing what could be a fairly lucrative career because you don't approve of it.

I also wasn't insulting you by calling you conservative. Attitudes like yours are typically American. We as a country are very prudish and uptight when it comes to sex.


Porn typically is very detrimental to women because it takes away the woman's choice to say "no". The viewer knows the woman will end up having sex, so even if she says no the viewer knows ultimately that means "yes". The consequence is that men become desensitized to sexual violence, or begin to believe that "no means yes". Both are almost the norm in American society today. To answer your first question, the effect is indirect so it is difficult to pinpoint exactly, but let me point to the fact that women are still regularly being sexually abused and regularly being unable to prosecute their perpetrators as evidence.


don't think I've seen a porn where the woman said no. Maybe I don't watch enough.
Last edited by BigA on Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:58 am

Nothing takes away a women's right to say no. Especially not porn. Women control the industry.

Trying to link porn to violent crime against women is a big stretch. It's possible, but only if the person is already mentally ill in the first place. Someone who is incapable of differentiating fantasy from reality. Most sexual abuse, especially rape, are crimes of power, not sex.

As for being unable to prosecute their attackers, that's societal conditioning, not porn. Being ashamed to admit to being assaulted, or the fact that we allow defense attorneys to basically use the "she was asking for it" defense...those are failings of society and completely independent from porn. Jenna Jameson or Jesse Jane aren't responsible for attacks on women. And to say that it's typical of men in today's society to be unable to tell the difference between a woman saying "no" or "yes" shows a pretty big disconnect from society.

I just find it odd and hypocritical that a "feminist", one who wants equality for women, would choose to castigate women who exercise that equality.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:30 pm

kalvano wrote:Nothing takes away a women's right to say no. Especially not porn. Women control the industry.

Trying to link porn to violent crime against women is a big stretch. It's possible, but only if the person is already mentally ill in the first place. Someone who is incapable of differentiating fantasy from reality. Most sexual abuse, especially rape, are crimes of power, not sex.

As for being unable to prosecute their attackers, that's societal conditioning, not porn. Being ashamed to admit to being assaulted, or the fact that we allow defense attorneys to basically use the "she was asking for it" defense...those are failings of society and completely independent from porn. Jenna Jameson or Jesse Jane aren't responsible for attacks on women. And to say that it's typical of men in today's society to be unable to tell the difference between a woman saying "no" or "yes" shows a pretty big disconnect from society.

I just find it odd and hypocritical that a "feminist", one who wants equality for women, would choose to castigate women who exercise that equality.


The porn industry does not empower women, it makes women constantly available to men for the fulfillment of their sexual desires. And it is ridiculous to argue that women control the porn industry, it is the consumers that control an industry not the lowest tier workers in that industry. Women control the porn industry about as much as musicians control the music industry. Your argument is essentially the same as arguing that child labor in sweatshops is a positive thing because those children choose to work there and they benefit by getting paid. There is not necessarily a direct correlation between by-choice workers and a positive industry.

In terms of prosecution, I am not simply talking about women underreporting rapes, although that is a significant problem. I'm talking about the difficulty of actually winning a rape case when you are often suspect from the very beginning. You would be shocked to learn how many women have been accused of lying when reporting a rape to the police. Furthermore, because of our system of "innocent until proven guilty" it is extremely hard to get a conviction with a he-said she-said rape situation. Most rapes do not actually produce significant physical evidence beyond semen, and the perpetrator almost always uses the "it was consensual" defense.

Anyway, I'm not attempting to argue that porn is the cause of societal violence towards women, only that it is a probable contributor. At the very least you must admit that it is indicative of a male-dominated society, and anything that portrays that as desirable is offensive.

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:47 pm

artichoke88 wrote:The porn industry does not empower women, it makes women constantly available to men for the fulfillment of their sexual desires. And it is ridiculous to argue that women control the porn industry, it is the consumers that control an industry not the lowest tier workers in that industry. Women control the porn industry about as much as musicians control the music industry. Your argument is essentially the same as arguing that child labor in sweatshops is a positive thing because those children choose to work there and they benefit by getting paid. There is not necessarily a direct correlation between by-choice workers and a positive industry.


I never said it empowers women. I simply said it's a viable career choice.

And they most certainly do control the porn industry. They are the highest-paid, they call they shots. The men are actually the lowest-tier workers in the porn industry. The women are the stars and what they say, goes. The men are paid next to nothing, and tossed aside like used condoms on a regular basis.

Try doing a little research if you're going to engage in a discussion about it.


artichoke88 wrote:In terms of prosecution, I am not simply talking about women underreporting rapes, although that is a significant problem. I'm talking about the difficulty of actually winning a rape case when you are often suspect from the very beginning. You would be shocked to learn how many women have been accused of lying when reporting a rape to the police. Furthermore, because of our system of "innocent until proven guilty" it is extremely hard to get a conviction with a he-said she-said rape situation. Most rapes do not actually produce significant physical evidence beyond semen, and the perpetrator almost always uses the "it was consensual" defense.


No, I wouldn't be shocked to learn. Everything you just said concurs with everything I said earlier. It has nothing to do with porn and everything to do with our society.




artichoke88 wrote:Anyway, I'm not attempting to argue that porn is the cause of societal violence towards women, only that it is a probable contributor.


http://reason.com/archives/2007/11/05/i ... alyst-of-s


In the 1980s, conservatives and feminists joined to fight a common nemesis: the spread of pornography. Unlike past campaigns to stamp out smut, this one was based not only on morality but also public safety. They argued that hard-core erotica was intolerable because it promoted sexual violence against women.

"Pornography is the theory; rape is the practice," wrote feminist author Robin Morgan. In 1986, a federal commission concurred. Some kinds of pornography, it concluded, are bound to lead to "increased sexual violence." Indianapolis passed a law allowing women to sue producers for sexual assaults caused by material depicting women in "positions of servility or submission or display."

The campaign fizzled when the courts said the ordinance was an unconstitutional form of "thought control." Though the Bush administration has put new emphasis on prosecuting obscenity, on the grounds that it fosters violence against women, pornography is more available now than ever.

That's due in substantial part to the rise of the Internet, where the United States alone has a staggering 244 million Web pages featuring erotic fare. One Nielsen survey found that one out of every four users say they visited adult sites in the last month.

So in the last two decades, we have conducted a vast experiment on the social consequences of such material. If the supporters of censorship were right, we should be seeing an unparalleled epidemic of sexual assault. But all the evidence indicates they were wrong. As raunch has waxed, rape has waned.



http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/57169/


But what do the data say? Over the years, many scientists have investigated the link between pornography (considered legal under the First Amendment in the United States unless judged “obscene”) and sex crimes and attitudes towards women. And in every region investigated, researchers have found that as pornography has increased in availability, sex crimes have either decreased or not increased.


http://www.physorg.com/news187448961.html

The arguments against pornography are many, ranging from insistence that porn degrades women and is morally reprehensible to the assertion that pornography viewing is the cause of sex crimes. However, over the years, there have been numerous studies done on this subject. And, reports The Scientist, it appears that there are links between sex crimes and pornography. Just not the sort of links many of us might have expected. Instead of causing sex crimes, porn might actually contribute to reducing their incidence.



artichoke88 wrote:At the very least you must admit that it is indicative of a male-dominated society, and anything that portrays that as desirable is offensive.


LOL what? How does it portray that as desirable? What kind of porn are you watching?

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby Hey-O » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:24 pm

This is an interesting discussion. I would say that porn like all things (aside from say, slavery and the Holocaust) is not all bad.

I think it is overstating it to say that women control the porn industry. They might be the stars, but who are the directors, the producers, the suppliers? The ones really calling the shots? Men.

I think that being a sex worker could have advantageous benefits for some women I think it probably has an overall negative choice. Especially, being a prostitute. Some women might be benefited by it but the fast majority of those working in it are not better off because of it. I also really doubt that most porn industry stars (both men and women) are emotionally stable or satisfied. I know that a vast majority of prostitutes were sexually abused as children.

Anyone know the stats for porn stars?

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:27 am

I'm not arguing that porn is a good choice of careers.

It just irritates me when someone claims to be about equality and then starts judging and demonizing when others utilize that equality.

Also, her argument is invalid. She's basically mouthing the party line without actually doing her own research or thinking about it.

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby Hey-O » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:39 am

kalvano wrote:
Also, her argument is invalid. She's basically mouthing the party line without actually doing her own research or thinking about it.


I have to agree. I think that her conclusion could be right but not from because of her argument.

I'm actually a pretty straight up feminist, but a lot of feminism gets lost in the whole men are pigs, I hate the patriarchy stuff. That sort of esoteric stuff just doesn't really translate in the real world.

d34d9823
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby d34d9823 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:44 am

ITT: "professional editing service" takes on a whole new meaning.

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kalvano
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby kalvano » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:49 am

Pig.

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billyez
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby billyez » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:59 am

Um...just to discuss what was originally noted. I might add that there's really no reason to use a professional editing service - especially if you go to a college. Just go to a writing center.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:20 am

kalvano wrote:I'm not arguing that porn is a good choice of careers.

It just irritates me when someone claims to be about equality and then starts judging and demonizing when others utilize that equality.

Also, her argument is invalid. She's basically mouthing the party line without actually doing her own research or thinking about it.


I apologize for not responding in depth to your very thorough argument citing very legitimate sources that cannot be disputed in any way, but I simply don't have the energy for it now. Tomorrow though, I will definitely post some of my own scientific studies and statistics to back up MY argument.

Having said that, I've spent years studying feminist philosophy and if you've read Catherine Mackinnon you might feel differently. I resent your ad hominem response to my position.

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:21 am

billyez wrote:Um...just to discuss what was originally noted. I might add that there's really no reason to use a professional editing service - especially if you go to a college. Just go to a writing center.


Someone else suggested this to me as well, but I've graduated so I'm not sure I have access to the writing center anymore. I suppose I should call and ask.

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby ProZach » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:06 pm

This is such an epic thread

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BigA
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby BigA » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:04 am

artichoke88 wrote: Your argument is essentially the same as arguing that child labor in sweatshops is a positive thing because those children choose to work there and they benefit by getting paid.


Why do you see women as so innocent and helpless? If porn is the drain on society that you say it is, it seems the women who choose to make these films should be held accountable for their part.

If men didn't solicit pornography, that money would go to other businesses in our economy, and women who would normally be in porn would be employed otherwise. Customers of pornography create pornography.


This is like only blaming junkies for all the drugs that illegally enter the country every day :roll:

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artichoke
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby artichoke » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:26 am

BigA wrote:
artichoke88 wrote: Your argument is essentially the same as arguing that child labor in sweatshops is a positive thing because those children choose to work there and they benefit by getting paid.


Why do you see women as so innocent and helpless? If porn is the drain on society that you say it is, it seems the women who choose to make these films should be held accountable for their part.

If men didn't solicit pornography, that money would go to other businesses in our economy, and women who would normally be in porn would be employed otherwise. Customers of pornography create pornography.


This is like only blaming junkies for all the drugs that illegally enter the country every day :roll:


Of course I blame the junkies for the illegal drug trade - they have created the demand. Without drug users, there would be no illegal drug trade. Who do you blame?

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BigA
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby BigA » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:50 am

artichoke88 wrote:
BigA wrote:
artichoke88 wrote: Your argument is essentially the same as arguing that child labor in sweatshops is a positive thing because those children choose to work there and they benefit by getting paid.


Why do you see women as so innocent and helpless? If porn is the drain on society that you say it is, it seems the women who choose to make these films should be held accountable for their part.

If men didn't solicit pornography, that money would go to other businesses in our economy, and women who would normally be in porn would be employed otherwise. Customers of pornography create pornography.


This is like only blaming junkies for all the drugs that illegally enter the country every day :roll:


Of course I blame the junkies for the illegal drug trade - they have created the demand. Without drug users, there would be no illegal drug trade. Who do you blame?


The key word you seemed to have ignored is *only* blaming junkies. So you don't think there's anything blameworthy about being a dealer, a grower or a drug cartel? If so, you've totally lost me.

Was also hoping you would explain why children in sweatshops is comparable to women in porn? If this is a good analogy then women would have to be as innocent and helpless as children. That doesn't sound very feminist.

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:53 am

What came first; the chicken or the egg?

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby Mroberts3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:55 am

Only on the internet would someone solicit advice and then pick a fight with a complete stranger (who had given useful advice) for something as innocuous as an avatar photo Who is that by the way? I obviously don't watch enough porn.

And for what it's worth, I blame rich people for having nice things. If it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be a demand for theft. Come to think of it, I also blame people who wear clothes. If it wasn't for them then children wouldn't be exploited in the 3rd world. Seriously, just because guys want to get their rocks off or a junkie wants to get a rock doesn't mean the suppliers are innocent bystanders. They are responsible for their actions -- and if those actions are wrong or criminal -- that's their problem.

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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby Hey-O » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:56 pm

Mroberts3 wrote:Only on the internet would someone solicit advice and then pick a fight with a complete stranger (who had given useful advice) for something as innocuous as an avatar photo Who is that by the way? I obviously don't watch enough porn.

And for what it's worth, I blame rich people for having nice things. If it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be a demand for theft. Come to think of it, I also blame people who wear clothes. If it wasn't for them then children wouldn't be exploited in the 3rd world. Seriously, just because guys want to get their rocks off or a junkie wants to get a rock doesn't mean the suppliers are innocent bystanders. They are responsible for their actions -- and if those actions are wrong or criminal -- that's their problem.


LOL

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BigA
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Re: Anyone used a professional editing service for their PS?

Postby BigA » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:11 am

BigA wrote:The key word you seemed to have ignored is *only* blaming junkies. So you don't think there's anything blameworthy about being a dealer, a grower or a drug cartel? If so, you've totally lost me.

Was also hoping you would explain why children in sweatshops is comparable to women in porn? If this is a good analogy then women would have to be as innocent and helpless as children. That doesn't sound very feminist.


Ahh, no response yet :(

I also have a question about objectifying women: What does that even mean anyway? I've heard that before. Does that mean you wouldn't do a sexy dance/strip for your man because that would be objectifying yourself?




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