Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

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fbonaparte1
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Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby fbonaparte1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:52 pm

Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Suppose that I applied to multiple law schools -- A, B, C and D -- and chose to attend law school D. Let's say that after graduation I apply for admission to the bar in Texas (or any other state). Will bar examiners have access to my applications to schools A, B and C -- even though I attended only law school D?

In other words, can bar examiners see the applications that a person sent to other law schools, i.e. not the school that he or she attended? Would bar examiners be able to obtain the applications through LSAC? And if so, does anyone know whether bar examiners or investigators do this on a regular basis?

Thanks.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:54 pm

A little shady of a question dude
Just don't lie on any of them and you'll be fine
Theoretically yes they could

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BrownBears09
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:06 pm

fbonaparte1 wrote:Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Suppose that I applied to multiple law schools -- A, B, C and D -- and chose to attend law school D. Let's say that after graduation I apply for admission to the bar in Texas (or any other state). Will bar examiners have access to my applications to schools A, B and C -- even though I attended only law school D?

In other words, can bar examiners see the applications that a person sent to other law schools, i.e. not the school that he or she attended? Would bar examiners be able to obtain the applications through LSAC? And if so, does anyone know whether bar examiners or investigators do this on a regular basis?

Thanks.


Can I lie to each school and get away with it?


FTFY.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:12 pm

IDK, I don't really understand the harsh replies or that idea that OP is necessarily planning on lying in applications. Some applications require disclosures that others don't, so it is possible that, without at all being dishonest, something could come out on one that doesn't on another. I think it could be a legitimate question and concern.

I would call the state bar associations of states you are thinking of working to try and get the best answer to this. I think there may be a number of different policies on this. It may be hard to find out for sure though, and there may not be designated policies on this issue. I think to be safe it's prob best to assume that whatever you put on apps could come back up (though I suspect prob unlikely unless there is a special review on your C & F application for the bar). If one app has something others don't in terms of disclosure that shouldn't be a problem as long as it is based on different questions and you are being honest.

However, If you're wondering this because you weren't honest on some of your apps, you may want to fix that now.

fbonaparte1
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby fbonaparte1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:19 pm

Thanks for the reply, Lawquacious.

The reason that I'm asking isn't because I want to lie to anyone. In fact, I have been completely truthful on all my applications. Different law school applications ask different questions and use different language when they do so.

I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:21 pm

fbonaparte1 wrote:Thanks for the reply, Lawquacious.

The reason that I'm asking isn't because I want to lie to anyone. In fact, I have been completely truthful on all my applications. Different law school applications ask different questions and use different language when they do so.

I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.


Shouldn't be a problem IMO- some apps simply require info that others don't. Good luck.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:25 pm

fbonaparte1 wrote:I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.


How can "language" of the question be blamed for different dates of employment? Either you are employed on the date, or you're not. "Employed" is not subjective. A similar response goes for C&F questions. It's pretty obvious to me that you're disclosing some information on one application, while leaving out/not disclosing the same information on another application.

The language on each application is very similar, and not disclosing information will raise concerns when actual information is presented. I filled out the same disclosure information for each application, because they were phrased nearly identically. But hey, some people like to gamble with bar admission, so to each his own.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:29 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
fbonaparte1 wrote:I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.


How can "language" of the question be blamed for different dates of employment? Either you are employed on the date, or you're not. "Employed" is not subjective. A similar response goes for C&F questions. It's pretty obvious to me that you're disclosing some information on one application, while leaving out/not disclosing the same information on another application.

The language on each application is very similar, and not disclosing information will raise concerns when actual information is presented. I filled out the same disclosure information for each application, because they were phrased nearly identically. But hey, to each his own.


In terms of dates, some apps require mo/and yr on the resume while others don't (i.e. it wouldn't be a problem to just put year). Also, there are some very significant C & F question differences on different apps in many cases; disclosing unneeded detail to a school that isn't asking for it specifically isn't wise IMO.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:32 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:
fbonaparte1 wrote:I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.


How can "language" of the question be blamed for different dates of employment? Either you are employed on the date, or you're not. "Employed" is not subjective. A similar response goes for C&F questions. It's pretty obvious to me that you're disclosing some information on one application, while leaving out/not disclosing the same information on another application.

The language on each application is very similar, and not disclosing information will raise concerns when actual information is presented. I filled out the same disclosure information for each application, because they were phrased nearly identically. But hey, to each his own.


In terms of dates some apps require mo/and yr on the resume while others don't. Also, there are some very significant C & F question differences on different apps in many cases; disclosing unneeded detail to a school that isn't asking for it specifically isn't wise IMO.


A school asking for months and dates, while another asking for just months is irrelevant. I highly doubt he/she was asking about an application requiring MM/DD/YY of a job and another application requiring MM/YY.

It's blatant that the schools I was applying to were hitting academic probation, criminal history, and university disciplinary. Each questions was sweeping and broad, requiring disclosure of anything but "minor" traffic citations. The idea of non-disclosing under a "language" loophole is pretty laughable, at best. And if they did not require disclosure, I would imagine it would be for minor incidents irrelevant to bar admission.
Last edited by BrownBears09 on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:35 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:
fbonaparte1 wrote:I am concerned that someone could accuse me of inconsistency if the details that I provided on one application are not present on another application. The details could range from dates and months of employment to descriptions in a response to a C&F question. If I applied to several schools, the language that I used and information that I presented could differ.


How can "language" of the question be blamed for different dates of employment? Either you are employed on the date, or you're not. "Employed" is not subjective. A similar response goes for C&F questions. It's pretty obvious to me that you're disclosing some information on one application, while leaving out/not disclosing the same information on another application.

The language on each application is very similar, and not disclosing information will raise concerns when actual information is presented. I filled out the same disclosure information for each application, because they were phrased nearly identically. But hey, to each his own.


In terms of dates some apps require mo/and yr on the resume while others don't. Also, there are some very significant C & F question differences on different apps in many cases; disclosing unneeded detail to a school that isn't asking for it specifically isn't wise IMO.


It's blatant that the schools I was applying to were hitting academic probation, criminal history, and university disciplinary. The idea of non-disclosing under a "language"
loophole is pretty laughable, at best.


IDK, it sounds like you're not very familiar with the variety of C & F questions out there, and also that you don't have personal experience dealing with potentially sticky C & F questions. Disclose everything no matter whether asked for or not is not TCR IMO, but disclose what is asked for and be honest is.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:38 pm

Lawquacious wrote:IDK, it sounds like you're not very familiar with the variety of C & F questions out there, and also that you don't have personal experience dealing with potentially sticky C & F questions. Disclose everything no matter whether asked for or not is not TCR IMO, but disclose what is asked for and be honest is.


Meh, ad hominem attacks are irrelevant as well (not to mention they fail to address the issue.)

OP: Don't bother disclosing if you don't think it's necessary. Just don't be surprised if it comes up later.

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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby fbonaparte1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:52 pm

OK, so here it is: I believe that I was never subject to any kind of disciplinary action at my undergraduate university, and I have a letter from the office of student conduct stating that the office does not have any records involving me. (I graduated a long time ago. True, records might have existed that are now destroyed, but I truly believe that I was never subject to formal discipline.)

For the sake of discussion, let's say that I submitted 10 law school applications total. On the first five apps, I answered no to the standard discipline question and didn't elaborate. On the next five apps, I answered no but disclosed whatever fragmentary information I could remember, i.e. getting called into a meeting but not being subject to any formal discipline. (In the later apps, I chose to start disclosing whatever I could remember, because I wanted to be as thorough as possible. Yes, I admit it took me time to realize how to apply and respond to these questions properly.)

In my opinion, I'm not a liar for this, but hopefully you can see why I'm concerned that bar examiners could accuse me of inconsistency if they were to compare all my apps. A large part of me feels that submitting amendments to the first five apps is not necessary because I was never subjected to formal discipline.

Furthermore, say that I received an offer of admission already from one of the first five schools. Submitting a C&F addendum after receiving an offer could get the offer revoked, or maybe something worse (like a complaint against me to LSAC, which would be ridiculous because I'm not a liar, but you are free to disagree).

This is the reason that I asked my original question.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:59 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:IDK, it sounds like you're not very familiar with the variety of C & F questions out there, and also that you don't have personal experience dealing with potentially sticky C & F questions. Disclose everything no matter whether asked for or not is not TCR IMO, but disclose what is asked for and be honest is.


Meh, ad hominem attacks are irrelevant as well (not to mention they fail to address the issue.)

OP: Don't bother disclosing if you don't think it's necessary. Just don't be surprised if it comes up later.


BrownBears09 wrote:
fbonaparte1 wrote:Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Suppose that I applied to multiple law schools -- A, B, C and D -- and chose to attend law school D. Let's say that after graduation I apply for admission to the bar in Texas (or any other state). Will bar examiners have access to my applications to schools A, B and C -- even though I attended only law school D?

In other words, can bar examiners see the applications that a person sent to other law schools, i.e. not the school that he or she attended? Would bar examiners be able to obtain the applications through LSAC? And if so, does anyone know whether bar examiners or investigators do this on a regular basis?

Thanks.


Can I lie to each school and get away with it?


FTFY.


Ahem.. ad hominem attacks eh? A little irony considering you attacked OP right off the bat for dishonesty when there was no clear indication at that point he was intending to be dishonest? Also, it wasn't meant as an attack; it's just that it sounds like you don't really know what you are talking about in this regard and that you gave OP an undeserved jab rather than helpful advice (but perhaps are trying to make up for it now). Anyway, it looks like OP has further feedback he is looking for so I plan to address that and not further clog this thread with trying to engage you. Otherwise we could prob go on for a while.. Perhaps we can agree to disagree? Peace.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:03 pm

fbonaparte1 wrote:OK, so here it is: I believe that I was never subject to any kind of disciplinary action at my undergraduate university, and I have a letter from the office of student conduct stating that the office does not have any records involving me. (I graduated a long time ago. True, records might have existed that are now destroyed, but I truly believe that I was never subject to formal discipline.)

For the sake of discussion, let's say that I submitted 10 law school applications total. On the first five apps, I answered no to the standard discipline question and didn't elaborate. On the next five apps, I answered no but disclosed whatever fragmentary information I could remember, i.e. getting called into a meeting but not being subject to any formal discipline. (In the later apps, I chose to start disclosing whatever I could remember, because I wanted to be as thorough as possible. Yes, I admit it took me time to realize how to apply and respond to these questions properly.)

In my opinion, I'm not a liar for this, but hopefully you can see why I'm concerned that bar examiners could accuse me of inconsistency if they were to compare all my apps. A large part of me feels that submitting amendments to the first five apps is not necessary because I was never subjected to formal discipline.

Furthermore, say that I received an offer of admission already from one of the first five schools. Submitting a C&F addendum after receiving an offer could get the offer revoked, or maybe something worse (like a complaint against me to LSAC, which would be ridiculous because I'm not a liar, but you are free to disagree).

This is the reason that I asked my original question.


If you were able to answer 'no' honestly then an addendum shouldn't have been needed. Especially since you did answer consistently it shouldn't be a problem as far as I can tell. If you answered the same questions differently then I think that could be a problem.

I think for specific info about what could be looked at by a particular state's bar association in C & F review your best bet would be making an anonymous call to the bar association and asking to speak with a C & F rep. From what you've shared I think you're fine, but make sure you are honest in C & F process. Also, although I believe I have more knowledge and experience with this type of issue than certain other posters on this site, I am by no means an expert so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:03 pm

fbonaparte1 wrote:OK, so here it is: I believe that I was never subject to any kind of disciplinary action at my undergraduate university, and I have a letter from the office of student conduct stating that the office does not have any records involving me. (I graduated a long time ago. True, records might have existed that are now destroyed, but I truly believe that I was never subject to formal discipline.)

For the sake of discussion, let's say that I submitted 10 law school applications total. On the first five apps, I answered no to the standard discipline question and didn't elaborate. On the next five apps, I answered no but disclosed whatever fragmentary information I could remember, i.e. getting called into a meeting but not being subject to any formal discipline. (In the later apps, I chose to start disclosing whatever I could remember, because I wanted to be as thorough as possible. Yes, I admit it took me time to realize how to apply and respond to these questions properly.)

In my opinion, I'm not a liar for this, but hopefully you can see why I'm concerned that bar examiners could accuse me of inconsistency if they were to compare all my apps. A large part of me feels that submitting amendments to the first five apps is not necessary because I was never subjected to formal discipline.

Furthermore, say that I received an offer of admission already from one of the first five schools. Submitting a C&F addendum after receiving an offer could get the offer revoked, or maybe something worse (like a complaint against me to LSAC, which would be ridiculous because I'm not a liar, but you are free to disagree).

This is the reason that I asked my original question.


The bold section is completely puzzling. You answered no, but disclosed information for only a "few" applications. Only in "later" apps did you choose how to respond? Why was your response on later applications a choice? Your "choice" on disclosure seems entirely voluntary based on the application you were filling out.

Your phrasing, along with your self-portrayal of being "not a liar for this" is extremely shady.

fbonaparte1
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby fbonaparte1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:18 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:The bold section is completely puzzling. You answered no, but disclosed information for only a "few" applications. Only in "later" apps did you choose how to respond? Why was your response on later applications a choice? Your "choice" on disclosure seems entirely voluntary based on the application you were filling out.

Your phrasing, along with your self-portrayal of being "not a liar for this" is extremely shady.


You're making it sound like I was picking and choosing. My response on later applications contained more information because by that point I realized it would be wise to provide as much information as I can.

Believe me, if I could do it all over again I would answer no and disclose all I can remember, on every single application -- that way all my answers would be truly the same. So, I'm trying to figure out what would be the best thing to do right now. If you have any comments and ideas for what I should do, besides implying that I'm shady and a liar, I would welcome them.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:18 pm

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Last edited by Lawquacious on Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AssociateX
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Re: Can bar examiners see all my law school applications?

Postby AssociateX » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:09 pm

Yes they can but it depends on whether the Character & Fitness Committee of that state's bar actually has information on what other law schools you applied to.

For ex: Let's assume you attend Baylor and just sat for the Texas bar exam. In Baylor's admissions app, they asked you to "list the other law schools you are applying to.." If you answer, SMU/Texas/Houston/Villanova/NYU/Miamim etc - technically the C&F folks *could* contact the Admissions offices at those other law schools to requset a copy of your Admissions Application/File.

However, if Baylor sends the Application to C&F and there is no information listed on what other schools you applied to - I see no reason why C&F would want to request that data. They are looking for instances of 1) past criminal conduct or civil conduct that involved any disciplinary action 2) any felonies, misdemeanors, instances of trouble with the law, etc, and 3) credit worthiness/ability to handle money in a responsible manner, or 4) any other instances which reflect lack of moral ethics, integrity so bad that licensing you would jeopardize a client, etc..

IMHO, I dont think you need to worry too much. As long as you disclose every instance of prior disciplnary activity, you should be fine.,




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