GI Bill Yellow Ribbon Program Forum

[illmal]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Rotor]

Illmal, thanks! That's the sort of info this thread is all about.

Unfortunately, that's an awful firm no from Berkeley (and UCLA, UCH, UCD and UCI (when they're not free that is)).

Which leads me to the question I've been pondering lately and can't seem to come up with a solid answer:

What is the downside for a school for participating in YRP?

The way I understand it, they could limit participation as much as they want. In tight budget years (like for the UCs) they "participate" in the program but don't offer YRP to any students. But even that doesn't make sense because if they offer any scholarships to vets, they could essentially double their bang for their buck by including it in the YRP.

So, let's say Berkeley plans to give me a 10K scholarship. (Hey, a guy can dream) If they were to participate in YRP they could either:
a) offer me the 10K and turn it into 20K, or
b) save 5K of the endowment, offer me 5 in YRP and turn it into the intended 10K.

The only downside I can reasonably come up with is disgruntled vets knowing a school participates, but not being one of the chosen to receive its benefits. But I would think that the PR benefits of saying "UC Berkeley proudly supports its veterans by participating in the Yellow Ribbon Program*" with the * being the legalese saying that actual awards under YRP are limited/not all will receive/etc., would outway that negative.

Thoughts anyone? Please help me refine my logic before Berk's ASD next week so I can put him/her on the hotseat.

[dapoetic1]

The true downside is income.
They would essentially be giving a vet a free ride. VA pays their portion, and the school waives the rest (or this could at least end up being up to a free ride).
Bottom line they have a student or two or ten attending their school for free. At some schools the endowments more than cover a few free rides, but for a lot of schools especially state school's they've been hit so hard they're crunching every single penny trying to scrimp and save.
I don't think a lot of the school's have a reservation for participation as much as they have a reservation for the lack of guidance from the VA. Like most of us the school's are all asking the same questions.
1. How much is it?
2. How much do we pay?
3. How much does VA pay?
4. How does this all work out?

[Rotor]

The true downside is income.
They would essentially be giving a vet a free ride. VA pays their portion, and the school waives the rest (or this could at least end up being up to a free ride).
Bottom line they have a student or two or ten attending their school for free. At some schools the endowments more than cover a few free rides, but for a lot of schools especially state school's they've been hit so hard they're crunching every single penny trying to scrimp and save.
I don't think a lot of the school's have a reservation for participation as much as they have a reservation for the lack of guidance from the VA. Like most of us the school's are all asking the same questions.
1. How much is it?
2. How much do we pay?
3. How much does VA pay?
4. How does this all work out?

I know there is a loss of some income, but if they are covering some anyway via scholarship, why not mitigate some of that loss by getting VA to fund half?

[LSATfromNC]

Updated first post with information. Still not alot of firm yes or no answers.

[Cole S. Law]

Making a thread so I can track schools status on whether they are participating. If you have any thing to add just post it.

Penn State School of Law - Financial Aid Director stated it was on the table whether they will participate. Most likely they will however she is not sure of the extent yet. She will have a better answer near the end of February.


Awaiting a response from (more to come).
Rutgers-Newark
Case Western Reserve
Hofstra
Villanova

Not Participating
Indiana Bloomington
St. Louis University
Michigan State

Case Western Reserve not participating. Stated by law school financial aid rep at ASD. May participate next year, but they are out this year. They cited a lack of details about how the program would work as the reason for opting out of this year.

[dapoetic1]

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of list out as of April 1 that shows which schools are participating?
I thought I read that on the VA website, but knowing them they couldn't get anyone to commit so they removed that date.

But if anyone knows of a list (even a preliminary one) can you link it.

BTW-spoke with the VA rep at Rutgers-N since it's on my very short list of schools, and she said they haven't determined if they're going to participate. She said she 'imagines' there are committees in place to determine if they will participate and in what capacity, but that if I'm interested I should check back sometime in the summer (around June). This is beginning to turn into a joke.

[AndyB617]

yeah i knew this was gonna happen. government bureaucratic bullsh*t at its best. get everyone's hopes up and they don't deliver. of course.

[LSATfromNC]

Wake Forest gave a firm NO. I first asked the Law School registrar, then hoping they were maybe not in the know asked the main VA rep who also gave a quick NO.

[alveron]

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of list out as of April 1 that shows which schools are participating?
I thought I read that on the VA website, but knowing them they couldn't get anyone to commit so they removed that date.

But if anyone knows of a list (even a preliminary one) can you link it.

BTW-spoke with the VA rep at Rutgers-N since it's on my very short list of schools, and she said they haven't determined if they're going to participate. She said she 'imagines' there are committees in place to determine if they will participate and in what capacity, but that if I'm interested I should check back sometime in the summer (around June). This is beginning to turn into a joke.

Yeah, that list was supposed to be out yesterday. I called the hotline and the rep didn't know about any list of schools participating or when it might be published. The rep said the only information they get is off the website and that we (the students) generally know more than they do because many don't bother to check it.

[LSATfromNC]

Isn't there supposed to be some kind of list out as of April 1 that shows which schools are participating?
I thought I read that on the VA website, but knowing them they couldn't get anyone to commit so they removed that date.

But if anyone knows of a list (even a preliminary one) can you link it.

BTW-spoke with the VA rep at Rutgers-N since it's on my very short list of schools, and she said they haven't determined if they're going to participate. She said she 'imagines' there are committees in place to determine if they will participate and in what capacity, but that if I'm interested I should check back sometime in the summer (around June). This is beginning to turn into a joke.

Yeah, that list was supposed to be out yesterday. I called the hotline and the rep didn't know about any list of schools participating or when it might be published. The rep said the only information they get is off the website and that we (the students) generally know more than they do because many don't bother to check it.

I thought the list was coming out on April 15? I have that in my mind because I remember it being worthless unless I took a jet to drop off my deposit.

[dapoetic1]

I found a link to the letter the VA sent to the schools explaining the program and in the letter it says students will be able to see a list of participating schools by April 1st.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/School_Info/ye ... Letter.pdf.

EDIT: Now the VA website say students will be able to see participating schools by late spring/early summer 2009.

[Krys987]

They posted 2 scenario's again for how the tuition credit hours and fees are paid:

http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... tution.pdf
http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... yments.pdf

[dapoetic1]

I think I've definitely got this thing figured out.

It's actually pretty easy (I think)
If you look on the VA website at the chart that shows the maximum amount of tuition and fees paid on go off that it makes sense.

Take the max amount of tuition per credit hour and multiply that by 12. That will give you the max amount that they will pay to any given school in the state. Since we're all grad students and grad school is always more than undergrad then you know you're automatically entitled to the full amount. Although full time law students will most likely be taking 15-18 credits it doesn't matter because the most they're going to pay is undergrad full term (12 hours or more) multiplied by the highest per credit tuition fee.

And then look at the fees charged by your law school and look at the maximum amount of fees VA will pay. This seems to be a pretty large amount. Most schools undergrad and grad/professional have the same kinds of fees charged by the school. Usually technology, library, health care etc. So whatever your school charges for fees compare that to the column on the right side of the VA's chart and if it's under that amount they'll pay all your fees otherwise they'll pay up to that amount.

I think in New Jersey the NEw max per credit is $437.50. So I know that if I'm going to Rutgers they're going to pay a maximum of $5250 ($437.50x12 credit hours)/semester. And a total of $10,500/year. Rutgers' tuition is ~$20k/year so I will have to come up with the other $10,000/year or $5,000/semester.
The fees at rutgers are $2,147/year VA pays a maximum of $5,102 so they'll pay 100% of my fees.

If Rutgers decided to participate in Yellow Ribbon (which I SERIOUSLY doubt) then they would waive $5,000/year and VA would pay the other $5,000/year. Which means VA would essentially be paying $15,500/year.

Additionally the BAH for New Jersey is $2203/month. So VA would also pay me $19,827 for the school year. Which would be $35,327 in total benefits for 1 school year and a total of $105,981 for all 3 years assuming no increase in tuition or BAH. (Under YRP)

If they don't participate in YRP then I would receive $19,827(BAH)+ $10,000(GIB)=$29,827/year and $89,481 over 3 years.

[Rotor]

Poetic: I think you're close, but I don't think there's a limit on the number of credit hours. If you take 15 hours, you get 15*max tuition. You just can't get paid more than the max hourly rate.

For example, your state max tuition is $300/hr. You are taking 15 hours and your school charges you 10,000 in tuition. You'll get $4500 (300*15).

Now, if you're in the enviable position of being in a state like Texas and qualify for $1,333/hr and are taking 15 hours but only charged that same $10,000 you'll get the 10K paid in full, but no more.

I know that both of the examples use enrollment of 12 hours-- but that doesn't mean it's the max. (in fact, I think it's the min to be considered full time, but couldn't find a reference that wasn't in the MGIB section). Other than that, I think you're on the money. (Pun intended)

Unfortunately, the school I'm planning on attending lumps everything into fees rather than tuition & fees, so it looks like I won't be getting the per hour rate. (I say again: just a statement of fact...not complaining!! )

[joehad7]

Notre Dame IS participating in the YRP. Go Irish!

[Rotor]

Notre Dame IS participating in the YRP. Go Irish!

Damn...I hate having something to actually LIKE about them

Any idea if they're going to YRP everyone? Select few? Some % less than 100%?

[dapoetic1]

Poetic: I think you're close, but I don't think there's a limit on the number of credit hours. If you take 15 hours, you get 15*max tuition. You just can't get paid more than the max hourly rate.

For example, your state max tuition is $300/hr. You are taking 15 hours and your school charges you 10,000 in tuition. You'll get $4500 (300*15).

Now, if you're in the enviable position of being in a state like Texas and qualify for $1,333/hr and are taking 15 hours but only charged that same $10,000 you'll get the 10K paid in full, but no more.

I know that both of the examples use enrollment of 12 hours-- but that doesn't mean it's the max. (in fact, I think it's the min to be considered full time, but couldn't find a reference that wasn't in the MGIB section). Other than that, I think you're on the money. (Pun intended)

Unfortunately, the school I'm planning on attending lumps everything into fees rather than tuition & fees, so it looks like I won't be getting the per hour rate. (I say again: just a statement of fact...not complaining!! )

This isn't the case and here's why
In undergrad (which all of these fees are based on) the maximum amount of tuition is based on the per credit hour charge x12. And the per credit hour quoted by the VA chart is the highest per credit hour charge possible for that state. In undergrad if you take 12 hours or 18 hours you pay the exact same flat fee. So that's the cap. VA will not pay more than the full-time charge at the undergraduate rate which is the highest amount per credit hour x 12 hours. So yes, while you can say that you will be taking 15 hours they will not pay the per credit rate x 15 hours because that would put you over the maximum in-state rate for tuition at the undergrad level. So the most you could get would be the cap which in any undergrad is never going to be more than 12x per credit charge.

Granted...I see what you're saying. Theoretically if you attend Univ of Texas their per credit hour ($1300+) would be more than enough to cover law school tuition for an in-state student. But their never going to exceed what the maximum undergrad tuition is and that's why you can't expect more than 12x max credit hours.

[alveron]

anyone else notice that the chart at http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... d_fees.htm just got updated and now makes less sense than before? Check out the maximum fees listed for Oregon. What sucks is that we have no idea of how this is really going to work until after June when all of the VA reps at the schools get their training from the VA.

[dapoetic1]

anyone else notice that the chart at http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/C ... d_fees.htm just got updated and now makes less sense than before? Check out the maximum fees listed for Oregon. What sucks is that we have no idea of how this is really going to work until after June when all of the VA reps at the schools get their training from the VA.

What's the problem with the new chart? It looks like the old chart except some states have increased the per credit hour charge and some have decreased their max fees (like Illinois)

If you notice they added a disclaimer for the fees that takes into account things like flight training!!!! I'll be that's why the fees are so freaking high.

[joehad7]

Notre Dame IS participating in the YRP. Go Irish!

Damn...I hate having something to actually LIKE about them

Any idea if they're going to YRP everyone? Select few? Some % less than 100%?

Not sure.

[alveron]

What's the problem with the new chart? It looks like the old chart except some states have increased the per credit hour charge and some have decreased their max fees (like Illinois)

If you notice they added a disclaimer for the fees that takes into account things like flight training!!!! I'll be that's why the fees are so freaking high.

I did not notice that disclaimer. I was just shocked at some of the updated numbers for some states. For example, Florida's increase in the per credit hour charge and some of the Max fees of 30k+ which were not there before. I guess it makes sense that they are figuring out what is the highest tuition an UG can be charged. I do like the notice that the official rates and explanations will be up by August 1, 2009. It's just too bad that we won't have real figures to correctly assess the GI Bill's financial impact on different law schools by the time we have to decide.

Anyone else feel like a windtester?

[Rotor]

Poetic: can you post the link to the VA website that says 12 is the max hours creditable? I've poured over the legislation and the website and have never seen that. Not trying to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I've got the right info.

[Krys987]

Poetic: can you post the link to the VA website that says 12 is the max hours creditable? I've poured over the legislation and the website and have never seen that. Not trying to be argumentative, I just want to make sure I've got the right info.

it actually states it in those sheets i linked above:

The maximum VA could pay was determined by multiplying the number of credit hours you are enrolled in and the maximum the VA could pay (12 credit hours X $250 max cost per credit hour in your state = $3,000 max VA can pay.)

[AndyB617]

this is ridiculous...for MA its saying $71.50 MAXIMUM per credit hour. THAT"S RIDICULOUS!! this may prevent me from going to law school! i can't believe that. that means that it's only like $3000 per year (even thats a stretch.) i really can't believe that. i hope these are not the final numbers. by the way, does anyone know how many credit hours we will take per semester in law school?