New GI Bill

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
CyLaw
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby CyLaw » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:12 pm

blowhard wrote:Yeah I went and looked at the bill. Somewhere it used to say something similar to that under the old Yellow Ribbon program. Basically, what the VA would split with the school. I'm still holding out hope for the "provided directly to" part.


I hope they construe it that way also. Since I am at a private school, I still fall under Yellow Ribbon, so my scholarship is still tied up with that and I am not actually affected by any of these changes. But I hope they don't change things for people in your situation and that you continue to get money back if you got it before.

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MURPH
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby MURPH » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:00 am

MCRemix wrote:Although I suspect they'd laugh in your face, you could try and convince the adcomms to classify your scholarship as for cost of living, thereby allowing it to be refunded to you. Better yet, tell them to shove the scholarship and give you a stipend.

If anyone manages to pull this one off, let me know.

I got a $750 scholarship for books from UCLA. Only for 1L year.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:16 am

CyLaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Yeah I went and looked at the bill. Somewhere it used to say something similar to that under the old Yellow Ribbon program. Basically, what the VA would split with the school. I'm still holding out hope for the "provided directly to" part.


I hope they construe it that way also. Since I am at a private school, I still fall under Yellow Ribbon, so my scholarship is still tied up with that and I am not actually affected by any of these changes. But I hope they don't change things for people in your situation and that you continue to get money back if you got it before.


Yeah it just sucks for some us planning to go to NYU. You go from 30000/yr to 17500, that really sucks.

CyLaw
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby CyLaw » Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:40 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
CyLaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Yeah I went and looked at the bill. Somewhere it used to say something similar to that under the old Yellow Ribbon program. Basically, what the VA would split with the school. I'm still holding out hope for the "provided directly to" part.


I hope they construe it that way also. Since I am at a private school, I still fall under Yellow Ribbon, so my scholarship is still tied up with that and I am not actually affected by any of these changes. But I hope they don't change things for people in your situation and that you continue to get money back if you got it before.


Yeah it just sucks for some us planning to go to NYU. You go from 30000/yr to 17500, that really sucks.


Lobby NYU to increase their Yellow Ribbon.Rotor could probably tell you about their experience at Boalt getting them to increase Yellow Ribbon

03121202698008
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:38 am

CyLaw wrote:
blowhard wrote:Yeah I went and looked at the bill. Somewhere it used to say something similar to that under the old Yellow Ribbon program. Basically, what the VA would split with the school. I'm still holding out hope for the "provided directly to" part.


I hope they construe it that way also. Since I am at a private school, I still fall under Yellow Ribbon, so my scholarship is still tied up with that and I am not actually affected by any of these changes. But I hope they don't change things for people in your situation and that you continue to get money back if you got it before.


According to my school's VA coordinator, several veterans groups are lobbying to change the last payer provision before it goes into effect. I had to e-mail the law school's aid office to see how my scholarship is classified.

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:24 pm

Lobby NYU to increase their Yellow Ribbon.Rotor could probably tell you about their experience at Boalt getting them to increase Yellow Ribbon

Happy to help. PM for details, but in short we approached it more like water torture than water boarding. (And yes I appreciate the irony in the phrasing of that distinction.)

We were helped by a few things beyond our control: a FinAid dean who wanted to participate from the start but not enough $, followed by huge tuition increases that were designated to improve grant aid and peers both in state (UCLA) and out of state (Mich. among others) who strongly supported YRP at the outset.

One line of reasoning we used that may also be effective at a school like NYU is that the grant awards should also support people who have already shown a commitment to public service-- not just those who commit to PI after graduation.

Obviously, I have no idea what actually won the day since I'm not the dean, but I'm sure it all helped a bit.

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:30 pm

One more thought for your situation at NYU: use the changes in the bill to explain how places like Boalt, Michigan and UVA will have substantial recruiting advantage starting next year.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:21 am

Rotor wrote:One more thought for your situation at NYU: use the changes in the bill to explain how places like Boalt, Michigan and UVA will have substantial recruiting advantage starting next year.


lol that's probably why i'll be going to Boalt instead of NYU. Also you guys have one rude certifying official. I was trying to get my Yellow ribbon stuff in early and do as much GI Bill stuff as possible, first he told me I wasn't accepted (which I am), then he said I had to wait till I came to school (which I know is false). I ended up emailing my stuff to young lady and she was much more helpful and she said I could come see financial aid when I visit for ASW.

side note: I called him in January and during the same conversation I asked him about the changes to the GI Bill he said it would cover instate tuition for the law school but it sounded like he was just saying whatever it took to get me off the phone. I called the VA and the guy wasn't sure but he said he thinks that is the way it will be interpreted so Berkeley seems like a really good choice for me now :).

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:25 am

How is vet life at Berkeley? I saw they have an organization up there? Is there a lot of us, esp active duty component. I always thought Berkeley would be anti vets with their history and it seemed to be that way with their poor yellow ribbon showing in comparison to UCLA. How has your experience been?

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:39 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Rotor wrote:One more thought for your situation at NYU: use the changes in the bill to explain how places like Boalt, Michigan and UVA will have substantial recruiting advantage starting next year.


lol that's probably why i'll be going to Boalt instead of NYU. Also you guys have one rude certifying official. I was trying to get my Yellow ribbon stuff in early and do as much GI Bill stuff as possible, first he told me I wasn't accepted (which I am), then he said I had to wait till I came to school (which I know is false). I ended up emailing my stuff to young lady and she was much more helpful and she said I could come see financial aid when I visit for ASW.

side note: I called him in January and during the same conversation I asked him about the changes to the GI Bill he said it would cover instate tuition for the law school but it sounded like he was just saying whatever it took to get me off the phone. I called the VA and the guy wasn't sure but he said he thinks that is the way it will be interpreted so Berkeley seems like a really good choice for me now :).


If you're talking about Mr. C**per, don't let him sour your impression about Cal. He is universally reviled by pretty much every vet on campus-- not just the law school. The main campus vets group actually put together a survey in early February to see who hadn't been certified yet-- FEBRUARY! Literally got my Spring term payment today.

If you talk with pretty much anyone else-- especially the Berkeley Law FinAid folks-- you'll have better luck. (Thankfully, you only have to deal with C**per twice per year. Unfortunately, it's a critical link in the chain.)

Edit to amend the parenthetical at the end.
Last edited by Rotor on Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:51 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:How is vet life at Berkeley? I saw they have an organization up there? Is there a lot of us, esp active duty component. I always thought Berkeley would be anti vets with their history and it seemed to be that way with their poor yellow ribbon showing in comparison to UCLA. How has your experience been?

Great experience. I had the same sorts of concerns re: Berkeley's reputation/history but it has not turned out that way at all. There are a bunch of folks way way way way out in left field, but not a speck of personal animosity towards prior, current (2 or 3 FLEPers out there) or future military (two JAG selectees I know of). Closest thing to a negative reaction was with respect to JAG recruiters because of the DADT policy-- but that is common to pretty much every law school.

There are about 10-12 vets per class, so a larger group than I was expecting. Not all participate in the BAMV group, but most do. The group also includes some folks who haven't served, but feel affinity-- a former AP Pentagon correspondent, etc. We'll have a table during ASW, so be sure to stop by and say hi. (It'll be the one with the mammoth sized banner. No one thought to measure the other groups' signs so when the guy who was doing the sign went in to get it made, he must have thought bigger=better :lol:)

And the poor YRP showing was a procedural/financial constraint-- not philosophical.

lonesoui
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby lonesoui » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:02 pm

CyLaw wrote:
lonesoui wrote:
CyLaw wrote:
lonesoui wrote:Rotor, I've been following this thread for awhile. Although it doesn't specifically state that all of instate public universities are covered, even though I believe they meant undergraduate only, I do think it is not the case. If you cross reference the YRP, and you will see the professional/graduate schools listed under there for public universities and their max contribution amounts. It leads me to conclude that it only applies to undergraduate degrees. Unless, that yellow ribbon covers any ADDITIONAL costs associated with attending post undergraduate schools. Why would UCLA cover up to 50% of $200,000.00( $99,999.00) of tuition that is exceeded by the highest tuition per hour and fees allotted to the state of California if instate public tuition is already covered?

I'm hoping I'm wrong on this. But if I am, I hope they will apply the national private school tuition rate of $17,500 to professional/graduate school regardless if it is private or public, and coincide it with the yellow ribbon program's max contribution for that school. Anyone want to chime in?


The Yellow Ribbon data you are looking at is for the 2010–2011 school year. The new policy goes into effect for the 2011–2012 school year.


Feb 23rd 2011 is the new list of the yellow ribbon program for school year 2011-2012. If the public universities are still on the list for max contributions for professional/graduate programs, would I be right?


I doubt it. The only place "undergraduate" appeared in the previous version of Chapter 33 was in 38 U.S.C. § 3313(c)(1)(A). That subsection has been completely replaced and all reference to undergraduate has been removed.



Ladies and Gentlemen,
I was wrong. And you all were correct. "All in-state, public tuition and fees (undergraduate, graduate, doctoral) can be fully paid for those at the 100% benefit level"
This is starting August 2011 though, so those enrolled for this spring and summer will unfortunately be duped.

Can be found on the first answer: --LinkRemoved--

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:38 am

Thanks for posting that. I didn't find it in my search.

Would be nice if the fine folks at the VA who answer such questions would read it to. :)

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ScottRiqui
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:53 am

I noticed that the GI Bill will pay for entrance examinations like the LSAT - is anyone here using it for that? I really can't imagine that just coughing up the dough out-of-pocket could possibly be more painful than having to wring it out of the VA.

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fatduck
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby fatduck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:54 am

ScottRiqui wrote:I noticed that the GI Bill will pay for entrance examinations like the LSAT - is anyone here using it for that? I really can't imagine that just coughing up the dough out-of-pocket could possibly be more painful than having to wring it out of the VA.


I think that's new in this version of the bill, and god knows what it would take to actually get paid.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:22 am

fatduck wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:I noticed that the GI Bill will pay for entrance examinations like the LSAT - is anyone here using it for that? I really can't imagine that just coughing up the dough out-of-pocket could possibly be more painful than having to wring it out of the VA.


I think that's new in this version of the bill, and god knows what it would take to actually get paid.


I know the other versions of the GI Bill cover national tests but I didn't know the post 9/11 did. That must be a change because the old one specifically didn't. It's not even a choice on the VA form for reimbursement.

Jeffro
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Jeffro » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:55 pm

I just created a new thread to discuss the latest changes to all VA education benefits (Chapters 30, 31, and 33). I realize a lot of finer points of Chapter 33 are being discussed here, but everyone feel free to contribute to this consolidated thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=148871

lonesoui
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby lonesoui » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:59 pm

I wanted to revive this old thread as well as this post. The new Yellow ribbon program list is out for 2011-2012, and now public schools have a cap on the contributions. UCLA was $99,999.00 last year and now they are just $9,000. If all public schools are covered, undergrad or not, why even have a yellow ribbon program? Which begs the question of my first post. Also, there has been a dramatic reduction across all schools in the amount of contributions that schools are willing to make, be it private or public. Could anyone clarify on this? It does't take until effect until Aug 2011, but I would like to know prior to even apply to specific schools, because If I can't afford to attend, I won't.

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jarv1506
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby jarv1506 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:17 pm

lonesoui wrote:I wanted to revive this old thread as well as this post. The new Yellow ribbon program list is out for 2011-2012, and now public schools have a cap on the contributions. UCLA was $99,999.00 last year and now they are just $9,000. If all public schools are covered, undergrad or not, why even have a yellow ribbon program? Which begs the question of my first post. Also, there has been a dramatic reduction across all schools in the amount of contributions that schools are willing to make, be it private or public. Could anyone clarify on this? It does't take until effect until Aug 2011, but I would like to know prior to even apply to specific schools, because If I can't afford to attend, I won't.


to your first question: the yellow ribbon program is a way for private schools to increase the benefits they give to veterans. so that when choosing a school you won't have to pay that much more for a private school. additionally tuition and fees are covered on an in-state basis, so if your paying out-of-state you might need a little help from the yellow ribbon. i went to a private school for undergrad and the yellow ribbon program covered whatever the gi bill wouldn't. so my decision between public and private schools wasn't based on finances. as for the amount the schools themselves will contribute, that is on a school-by-school basis. i inquired at all the law schools i applied to about their yellow ribbon contribution program, and they were all different. some schools would only contribute yellow ribbon funds to a certain number of veterans, others gave to all of their veteran law students. so if you have questions about a specific law schools participation in the yellow ribbon program, call the admission department. the financial aid people should be able to tell you how much you can expect to get with 100% benefits. hope this helps.

lonesoui
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby lonesoui » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:40 pm

Thanks for the reply. I didn't see the in-state tuition portion, which would have answered my own question. Also, do the yellow ribbon and private tuition of $17,500 cover per academic year or calendar year? If calendar year, many will stand to win, but if it's academic year, everyone is screwed.

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jarv1506
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby jarv1506 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:20 pm

lonesoui wrote:Thanks for the reply. I didn't see the in-state tuition portion, which would have answered my own question. Also, do the yellow ribbon and private tuition of $17,500 cover per academic year or calendar year? If calendar year, many will stand to win, but if it's academic year, everyone is screwed.


it should be calendar year, but even that is a bit misleading. you're eligible for 36 months of benefits. this means that if you were to go to school full-time over the summer you would still receive your benefits. look at it this way. $17,500/2 semesters = $8,750 per semester of tuition assistance. when I was in undergrad I went full-time over the summer and got paid for 3 semesters a year. right now that would really be $26,250 in a calendar year despite what they call the 'yearly cap'. the typical academic calendar is aug-dec and jan-may so you'll use up 9-10 months of benefits every year of law school. so over 3 years you'll only use up 30 months of benefits. the other thing to factor in is that you also get a book stipend each semester and you get E-5 BAH for wherever you are living. this of course cuts down on loans you have to take out for cost of living. NYC's rate is $2367 per month over 10 months that's $23,670 ad that to $17,500 for 2 semesters at a private law school and you getting $41,170 per year, thats not including whatever the yellow ribbon program at your school puts up. all of that to say, if you're eligible for 100% benefits, you should be able to afford most private schools without having to take on a massive amount of debt. the post 9/11 is pretty sweet. but like i mentioned before, check with each school on their yellow ribbon funds, it will vary. hope this helps.

lonesoui
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby lonesoui » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:37 am

Well, it raises more questions. Let's use Stanford law as an example. Tuition is roughly $50,000. Now, I won't add in BAH, that is really for rent, utilities, food, insurance, personal items, etc. We'll dedicate the entire BAH to one's personal use, and not to include it in the tuition. Here's the break up:

Calendar year:

First Fall term: 25k tuition - 17.5K GI bill = 7500, yellow ribbon for Stanford sits at around 10.5k, which basically covers first term.
1st spring term, and 2nd fall term tuition is: 50K - 17.5K(calendar year cap) = 32.5k Yellow ribbon is 10.5k x 2 = 21k. There's a difference of 11.5k for this calendar year, as well as the next. And the last spring term will be like that of the first fall term, covered totally. So you're looking at coming out with 23k in debt

Academic year:

Fall and spring terms are one. 50K tuition, 17.5k gi bill cap, yellow ribbon at 21k. Each academic year, you will be in 11.5k in debt multiplied by 3 academic years. 34.5k in debt when you graduate.

It's hard enough that the job market for lawyers is flooded, but being in debt is not something I want to look forward to, especially in this economy. Would it be more wise to look for schools that are capped at a minimum of $15k in the yellow ribbon contributions, that way all or most of the tuition is covered, calendar or academic?

jonjung710
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby jonjung710 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:17 am

for schools in illinois (northwestern, chicago), is it true that everything is covered automatically? as in, you don't have to pay anything? ive heard this from numerous people and thought that it's too good to be true...

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jarv1506
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby jarv1506 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:39 am

lonesoui wrote:being in debt is not something I want to look forward to, especially in this economy. Would it be more wise to look for schools that are capped at a minimum of $15k in the yellow ribbon contributions, that way all or most of the tuition is covered, calendar or academic?


honestly, this will come down to how debt averse you are. and remember, that while you don't need to factor BAH into tuition, you do need to factor it into your debt calculations unless you can live somewhere for free. personally I ended up choosing a state school (20-40) in a region I want to work in, that will leave me debt free when i'm done. this way, even if i happen to suck at law school for some reason, or the job market gets worse, my options are still pretty wide open.

jonjung710 wrote:for schools in illinois (northwestern, chicago), is it true that everything is covered automatically? as in, you don't have to pay anything? ive heard this from numerous people and thought that it's too good to be true...


my initial answer would be that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. both schools might have awesome grant programs for veterans, i'm not really sure. but i wouldn't take anyone's word for it, I would call the schools and ask. my guess is that they are both private schools with a lot of money who will probably offer something to veterans, but i doubt its an automatic full ride. and BAH for chicago is $1350 a month. i'm not sure how expensive it is to live in chicago, but i'd imagine more than that.

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Rotor
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Re: New GI Bill

Postby Rotor » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:26 am

lonesoui wrote:Well, it raises more questions. Let's use Stanford law as an example. Tuition is roughly $50,000. Now, I won't add in BAH, that is really for rent, utilities, food, insurance, personal items, etc. We'll dedicate the entire BAH to one's personal use, and not to include it in the tuition. Here's the break up:

Calendar year:

First Fall term: 25k tuition - 17.5K GI bill = 7500, yellow ribbon for Stanford sits at around 10.5k, which basically covers first term.
1st spring term, and 2nd fall term tuition is: 50K - 17.5K(calendar year cap) = 32.5k Yellow ribbon is 10.5k x 2 = 21k. There's a difference of 11.5k for this calendar year, as well as the next. And the last spring term will be like that of the first fall term, covered totally. So you're looking at coming out with 23k in debt

Academic year:

Fall and spring terms are one. 50K tuition, 17.5k gi bill cap, yellow ribbon at 21k. Each academic year, you will be in 11.5k in debt multiplied by 3 academic years. 34.5k in debt when you graduate.

It's hard enough that the job market for lawyers is flooded, but being in debt is not something I want to look forward to, especially in this economy. Would it be more wise to look for schools that are capped at a minimum of $15k in the yellow ribbon contributions, that way all or most of the tuition is covered, calendar or academic?


It is academic year. See: http://www.gibill.va.gov/benefits/post_ ... ogram.html.

As for your debt aversion, $35K is pretty much just a moderately high car loan, so I would say that if that level of debt makes you nervous, you'll need pretty much full ride or nothing-- and even going to a state school isn't going to get you that since you still have to eat/live beyond rent (See below) . It's especially puzzling for me that you seem to be willing to go 23K in debt, but not 35K. So, in reality the question here would be "Is SLS worth an additional 12K in debt?" The answer for most in this case would be a pretty easy yes.

As Jarv mentioned, you need to calculate total COA-- not just tuition-- and factor in the BAH benefit, the book benefit, the Bar Exam benefit, heck even the tax advantage of higher ed expense and student loan interest deductions, etc. if you're really as debt averse as your post suggests.

Finally, are job prospects as rosy now as pre-crash? No. Is the market flooded with lawyers? Yes. However, the market is not flooded with SLS lawyers and you'll likely be fine job-wise if that's your option.

For example, look at these calculations from an online student loan calculator. I used the regular 10 year amortization and the Stafford loan rate (since you won't need to dip into Grad PLUS if you can keep your debt to 35K.
Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $35,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $35,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $11,666.67


Monthly Loan Payment: $402.78
Number of Payments: 120


Cumulative Payments: $48,333.80
Total Interest Paid: $13,333.80


Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $402.78 plus a final payment of $402.98.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $48,333.60 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 0.7. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $32,222.40, but you may experience some financial difficulty.This corresponds to a debt-to-income ratio of 1.1.


Pretty much everything is going to pay $50K. And if you were to have a job at that level that made things tight, I'm guessing you'd qualify for the school's LRAP/IBR plan, too.

So, ultimately it is up to how much you can stomach in terms of debt. But you really ought to be looking at the forest, not just the trees.

[Edit to add: I'm thinking specifically of SLS in my analysis above. However, with the 50K income required, pretty much everything but hard core public interest will likely get you to that level wherever you go. So, it comes down more to odds of being hired than odds of getting big-law at these debt levels.]




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