How much debt is too much debt?

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
Dayman22
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How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Dayman22 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:29 am

Got into Loyola Law, however I got no merit-based financial aid and would have to take out federal loans to cover the cost of everything. I really want to go to Loyola, but Chapman is offering a partial merit based scholarship (with stipulation). I'm very wary of Chapman's stipulation as there are very negative things that are said about schools with merit based stipulations, but does that mean I should take on Loyola with no merit based scholarship? I really do not want to go to Chapman but I'd be in over 100,000 dollars of debt from Loyola after graduation and that scares me. Although I'm ultimately looking to get into PI law, I'm very interested in a variety of different parts of the law such as criminal defense, entertainment, international, immigration, etc. Essentially, I am hoping I figure out through law school what I'd like to get into.

Sooo, I guess my question is should I go with Loyola or Chapman? I'm trying to negotiate but in the worst case scenario they give me nothing or little to nothing should I just accept the loans sans scholarship that will lead to a ginormous debt?

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presidentspivey
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby presidentspivey » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:35 am

Dayman22 wrote:Got into Loyola Law, however I got no merit-based financial aid and would have to take out federal loans to cover the cost of everything. I really want to go to Loyola, but Chapman is offering a partial merit based scholarship (with stipulation). I'm very wary of Chapman's stipulation as there are very negative things that are said about schools with merit based stipulations, but does that mean I should take on Loyola with no merit based scholarship? I really do not want to go to Chapman but I'd be in over 100,000 dollars of debt from Loyola after graduation and that scares me. Although I'm ultimately looking to get into PI law, I'm very interested in a variety of different parts of the law such as criminal defense, entertainment, international, immigration, etc. Essentially, I am hoping I figure out through law school what I'd like to get into.

Sooo, I guess my question is should I go with Loyola or Chapman? I'm trying to negotiate but in the worst case scenario they give me nothing or little to nothing should I just accept the loans sans scholarship that will lead to a ginormous debt?

These are both very bad options. The best way to get better options is to retake the LSAT. What is your GPA/LSAT score? Do not go to either of these schools at these prices.

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brinicolec
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:39 am

presidentspivey wrote:
Dayman22 wrote:Got into Loyola Law, however I got no merit-based financial aid and would have to take out federal loans to cover the cost of everything. I really want to go to Loyola, but Chapman is offering a partial merit based scholarship (with stipulation). I'm very wary of Chapman's stipulation as there are very negative things that are said about schools with merit based stipulations, but does that mean I should take on Loyola with no merit based scholarship? I really do not want to go to Chapman but I'd be in over 100,000 dollars of debt from Loyola after graduation and that scares me. Although I'm ultimately looking to get into PI law, I'm very interested in a variety of different parts of the law such as criminal defense, entertainment, international, immigration, etc. Essentially, I am hoping I figure out through law school what I'd like to get into.

Sooo, I guess my question is should I go with Loyola or Chapman? I'm trying to negotiate but in the worst case scenario they give me nothing or little to nothing should I just accept the loans sans scholarship that will lead to a ginormous debt?

These are both very bad options. The best way to get better options is to retake the LSAT. What is your GPA/LSAT score? Do not go to either of these schools at these prices.


^ That part.

Also, I haven't looked at Loyola's costs extensively (I literally just googled them to get an idea of tuition and stuff) but I think you'd be looking at closer to $200k+ in debt (without considering interest). I'd also imagine that Chapman at "partial" would be $100k+ in debt. You might want to sit down and actually calculate your #s because I think you're low-balling them.

But yes, what are your numbers? Where do you want to practice? Do you HAVE to go to LS now for some reason? If not, most definitely sit out, retake, and try again with a higher LSAT score. Both of those options are unsettling.

enoca
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby enoca » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:38 am

Don't do any of this.

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UVA2B
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:39 am

You need better options.

Dayman22
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Dayman22 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:40 am

I've taken the LSAT twice and I got a 153 with a 3.8 GPA. I know my score is low but I feel like it's the best I can do cause it was within my average for PTs. I'd like to practice in LA and I'm local already so there's a chance I'll live at home and not take out the whole amount the loans are offering me, just enough to go cover tuition and then some. I've thought about sitting out this year too but at this point I've been so set on going to law school right after I graduaren that I would feel really lost if i decided weeks before graduation that I won't be going to law school this year.

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Greenteachurro
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Greenteachurro » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:46 am

Dayman22 wrote:I've taken the LSAT twice and I got a 153 with a 3.8 GPA. I know my score is low but I feel like it's the best I can do cause it was within my average for PTs. I'd like to practice in LA and I'm local already so there's a chance I'll live at home and not take out the whole amount the loans are offering me, just enough to go cover tuition and then some. I've thought about sitting out this year too but at this point I've been so set on going to law school right after I graduaren that I would feel really lost if i decided weeks before graduation that I won't be going to law school this year.


Yeah you have a great GPA don't waste it. I would not worry about taking the time off. I started my LSAT journey at like 150ish and I eventually worked it all the way up to a 166, and was PT'ing around 170. It's definitely possible to raise it. Also, 10 years from now do you want to say you went to Loyola and work at some dinky law firm? Or do you want to say you went to Berkley/Stanford and work a sweet job? Just work some boring office job and study for a year.

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half moon
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby half moon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:50 am

Dayman22 wrote:I've taken the LSAT twice and I got a 153 with a 3.8 GPA. I know my score is low but I feel like it's the best I can do cause it was within my average for PTs. I'd like to practice in LA and I'm local already so there's a chance I'll live at home and not take out the whole amount the loans are offering me, just enough to go cover tuition and then some. I've thought about sitting out this year too but at this point I've been so set on going to law school right after I graduaren that I would feel really lost if i decided weeks before graduation that I won't be going to law school this year.


How are you studying for the LSAT? I know people hate to hear retake, but with your GPA even getting a 160+ would give you much better options.

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby HennessyVSOP » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:55 am

Greenteachurro wrote:Yeah you have a great GPA don't waste it. I would not worry about taking the time off. I started my LSAT journey at like 150ish and I eventually worked it all the way up to a 166, and was PT'ing around 170. It's definitely possible to raise it. Also, 10 years from now do you want to say you went to Loyola and work at some dinky law firm? Or do you want to say you went to Berkley/Stanford and work a sweet job? Just work some boring office job and study for a year.


This is pretty much the best advice anyone can give you.

Dayman22
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Dayman22 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:59 am

I took Blueprint and Testmasters and took at least 10 practice tests with countless hours of studying. I know I could've done a lot better during my second round but logic games screwed me up. I just really don't want to have to take the LSAT again but i know that there's definitely advantages to waiting a little bit longer....I'm not sure. Time wise, i just want to get out and get into the workforce already. I'm not exactly trying to become the richest lawyer in the entire world but I'd just like to know if taking out this 60,000 grad plus loan isn't the absolute worst idea in the world. Still hoping Loyola will negotiate with me too. I appreciate everyone's brutal honesty though!!

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half moon
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby half moon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:05 am

Dayman22 wrote:I took Blueprint and Testmasters and took at least 10 practice tests with countless hours of studying. I know I could've done a lot better during my second round but logic games screwed me up. I just really don't want to have to take the LSAT again but i know that there's definitely advantages to waiting a little bit longer....I'm not sure. Time wise, i just want to get out and get into the workforce already. I'm not exactly trying to become the richest lawyer in the entire world but I'd just like to know if taking out this 60,000 grad plus loan isn't the absolute worst idea in the world. Still hoping Loyola will negotiate with me too. I appreciate everyone's brutal honesty though!!


Using Powerscore, I found logic games was the easiest section to improve on. It went from my worst section on diagnostic to my best on test day.

If you're worried about waiting around a year to retake, try thinking of this as the first days of a 40-odd year career that you want to get it off to the best start possible, not just one year of not doing what you want. With your GPA, an improved LSAT score could get you into a better school with a bigger scholarship and set you up for a much better career and financial outlook in the long run.

grades??
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby grades?? » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:11 am

Dayman22 wrote:I took Blueprint and Testmasters and took at least 10 practice tests with countless hours of studying. I know I could've done a lot better during my second round but logic games screwed me up. I just really don't want to have to take the LSAT again but i know that there's definitely advantages to waiting a little bit longer....I'm not sure. Time wise, i just want to get out and get into the workforce already. I'm not exactly trying to become the richest lawyer in the entire world but I'd just like to know if taking out this 60,000 grad plus loan isn't the absolute worst idea in the world. Still hoping Loyola will negotiate with me too. I appreciate everyone's brutal honesty though!!


OP I'm gonna be honest with you- either choice is a life ruining choice. I don't say that lightly, but it is. It will lead to financial ruin and the likely outcome that you will never be able to work as a lawyer anyway, on top of the financial ruin.

I listened to the retake advice. I went from a 142 diagnostic to a 175+ on my third take. It took me 3 takes, a full year of studying and taking over 200 timed practice tests. Instead of going to a t2 school and paying a boatload, I'm at a t13 with a huge scholarship. All because of my Lsat. And you my friend have a much better gpa than I do. You get a 170, you are looking at lower t13 big money and possible acceptances at Columbia or Chicago. How's that sound in comparison to the shit choices you have now?

First thing- take the year off. Go get a job anywhere, be a bartender, be a paralegal, or go sell candy. Take each section by itself and not timed. Start with games, don't move on until you get -0 every time. Go watch the 7sage videos on YouTube and just practice man. Keep practicing. It will change your life. It changed mine.

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HennessyVSOP
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby HennessyVSOP » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:50 am

Raise your LSAT score 10 or 11 points - http://mylsn.info/t7bdw4/

Imagine the feeling of telling your family, friends, and work that you're going to UCLA. Or even going to Loyola with a full scholarship.

Raise your LSAT score 15 points - http://mylsn.info/fs57ad/

Imagine the feeling of telling your family, friends, and work that you're going to UCLA for free. Or to Berkeley with a scholarship.

+ A year of work experience isn't going to do anything except help you. Schools like students who have worked far better than K-JD applicants.

Redfactor
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Redfactor » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:54 pm

I will say it: I suspect the CBX will be a huge challenge for you. You have an awesome GPA, indicating a good work ethic towards your studies. However, if after diligent studying with blueprint and testmasters and you're at the low 150's after sitting for the lsat twice, I don't have a ton of confidence that you'll pass the CBX.

I do not mean this to be an attack, but if that's where you are, I think the possibility of you completing law school but repeatedly failing the bar and not being able to actually practice should be a consideration.

Whatever you do, do not go with either of these options.

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brinicolec
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby brinicolec » Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:16 am

Dayman22 wrote:I took Blueprint and Testmasters and took at least 10 practice tests with countless hours of studying. I know I could've done a lot better during my second round but logic games screwed me up. I just really don't want to have to take the LSAT again but i know that there's definitely advantages to waiting a little bit longer....I'm not sure. Time wise, i just want to get out and get into the workforce already. I'm not exactly trying to become the richest lawyer in the entire world but I'd just like to know if taking out this 60,000 grad plus loan isn't the absolute worst idea in the world. Still hoping Loyola will negotiate with me too. I appreciate everyone's brutal honesty though!!


To answer your question: Taking out $60k in loans for Loyola with your GPA is not even close to a good idea. I agree with everyone else. Sit out, refocus, change your study method, don't retake until you're averaging around what you want, then retake.

Npret
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby Npret » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:24 am

Dayman22 wrote:I took Blueprint and Testmasters and took at least 10 practice tests with countless hours of studying. I know I could've done a lot better during my second round but logic games screwed me up. I just really don't want to have to take the LSAT again but i know that there's definitely advantages to waiting a little bit longer....I'm not sure. Time wise, i just want to get out and get into the workforce already. I'm not exactly trying to become the richest lawyer in the entire world but I'd just like to know if taking out this 60,000 grad plus loan isn't the absolute worst idea in the world. Still hoping Loyola will negotiate with me too. I appreciate everyone's brutal honesty though!!

You are making a wrong assumption that these schools will "get you out into the workforce already." Jobs are highly competitive and the market is saturated. You may not get a job as a lawyer.
You should go into the workforce now if that is what you want.

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BigLawSmallConfdence
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Re: How much debt is too much debt?

Postby BigLawSmallConfdence » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:16 am

Hi OP,

I think that Loyola is a fine choice for a school to attend if you want to work in LA. However, the subject of your post is how much debt is too much. Going over $200,000 in debt that will start accruing interest the day you graduate is far too much debt. I think if you had a scholarship to the schools you mentioned or if your total tuition would be around 50k that would be okay. Are there lower ranked schools that have you higher scholarships? If so, maybe consider those. I don't think anyone should go $200,000 into debt to become a lawyer.

I do understand that you put so much time and effort into the LSAT and you took TWO courses so you feel like you have 'tried everything' but with a 3.8 gpa I think you are more than capable of breaking 160+! I also think that 10 PT's is on the low side. But again it's easy for us to sit back on our computers and say 'retake' when it is you that has to put in the work day to day. So although I understand your being kind of 'over' the LSAT, we're just trying to give you the best advice possible. It's better than being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and thinking what if.

Whatever you decision is, it's YOURS. So go with your heart! I wish you the best of luck.




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