Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

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Jack_Kelly
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Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby Jack_Kelly » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:20 pm

I have an offer for a full ride+stipend in a PhD program in polysci

Can I use this to negotiate a better scholarship at a JD program?
Already have a fairly sizable scholarship there (but not a full ride)

grades??
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby grades?? » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:22 pm

You can try, but I imagine admissions will just laugh at the email and say no.

cavalier1138
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:59 pm

No.

BobBoblaw
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby BobBoblaw » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:06 pm

No.

PhDs would typically include a full ride and a stipend, but require you to work as a TA or RA. Plus, employment outcomes and earning potential are not at all comparable to a JD. There is a reason no one but the independently wealthy actually pay for their PhD...
Last edited by BobBoblaw on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lymenheimer
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby lymenheimer » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:06 pm

If you have a full ride phd offer for multiple sciences, while are you considering a JD?

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Jack_Kelly
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby Jack_Kelly » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:54 pm

lymenheimer wrote:If you have a full ride phd offer for multiple sciences, while are you considering a JD?

:lol: If only any of my skills were actually employable. It has "science" right in the name, even!

Thanks for the answers, I figured the answer was probably no but thought I'd make sure.

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gargleblaster
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby gargleblaster » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:14 pm

Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.

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lymenheimer
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby lymenheimer » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:46 pm

Jack_Kelly wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you have a full ride phd offer for multiple sciences, while are you considering a JD?

:lol: If only any of my skills were actually employable. It has "science" right in the name, even!

Thanks for the answers, I figured the answer was probably no but thought I'd make sure.

I'm mocking you for your expression of the course of study

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:10 pm

gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."

cheaptilts
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby cheaptilts » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:17 pm

gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.

Idk. The whole LSAT/GPA median game is all relative. If OP "walks" away from law entirely, that's one less (hypothetical) 170/3.5 on the market for all schools. It's not like his numbers would be used to boost the school's competitors. So they probably wouldn't care.

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:18 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."


You beat me to it.

"I really want a Porsche. You sell nice Porsches, but I have an offer on the table to travel Europe with a society of bards. What kind of discount can that get me on that 911 Turbo over there in the showroom if I forego this Shakespearean adventure?"

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Jack_Kelly
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby Jack_Kelly » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:52 am

Yeah, them going the, "OK, Good luck in that post graduate liberal arts degree market, pal" route is kinda my expectation/fear if I do it. So I don't think I will.

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gargleblaster
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby gargleblaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:23 am

cheaptilts wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.

Idk. The whole LSAT/GPA median game is all relative. If OP "walks" away from law entirely, that's one less (hypothetical) 170/3.5 on the market for all schools. It's not like his numbers would be used to boost the school's competitors. So they probably wouldn't care.


True, but that is also one less 170 3.5 in that schools class.

The LSAT & GPA combo is intrinsically worth something to the school, not just as a thing that can go to their competition.

I agree that it is not as strong as enrolling at a competing JD program - but this person does have something that the law schools want and might be willing to negotiate nominally for.

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gargleblaster
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby gargleblaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 am

UVA2B wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."


You beat me to it.

"I really want a Porsche. You sell nice Porsches, but I have an offer on the table to travel Europe with a society of bards. What kind of discount can that get me on that 911 Turbo over there in the showroom if I forego this Shakespearean adventure?"


you're both only addressing one part of the transaction.

The schools want this person's LSAT & GPA to add to their class - that is worth something to the school - I'm not making assertions about how much relatively, just that it has some value.

Your porsche example is forgetting that the porsche dealer still wants this person's $$$ - if the dude says "ill either buy a porsche if you give me the right price, or I'm going to buy a vacation home" - that is a legitimate position to have. The porsche dealer can then evaluate whether they want this guy's money enough to give him an offer that he might take. He's not going to go to the lambhorgini dealer (which might motivate the porche dealer more) but he still wont be giving the guy $$ if they cant find a mutually agreeable price.

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby bearsfan23 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:08 am

gargleblaster wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."


You beat me to it.

"I really want a Porsche. You sell nice Porsches, but I have an offer on the table to travel Europe with a society of bards. What kind of discount can that get me on that 911 Turbo over there in the showroom if I forego this Shakespearean adventure?"


you're both only addressing one part of the transaction.

The schools want this person's LSAT & GPA to add to their class - that is worth something to the school - I'm not making assertions about how much relatively, just that it has some value.

Your porsche example is forgetting that the porsche dealer still wants this person's $$$ - if the dude says "ill either buy a porsche if you give me the right price, or I'm going to buy a vacation home" - that is a legitimate position to have. The porsche dealer can then evaluate whether they want this guy's money enough to give him an offer that he might take. He's not going to go to the lambhorgini dealer (which might motivate the porche dealer more) but he still wont be giving the guy $$ if they cant find a mutually agreeable price.


Yeah that's not how it works.

A law school will give zero value to your polysci offer

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gargleblaster
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby gargleblaster » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:18 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."


You beat me to it.

"I really want a Porsche. You sell nice Porsches, but I have an offer on the table to travel Europe with a society of bards. What kind of discount can that get me on that 911 Turbo over there in the showroom if I forego this Shakespearean adventure?"


you're both only addressing one part of the transaction.

The schools want this person's LSAT & GPA to add to their class - that is worth something to the school - I'm not making assertions about how much relatively, just that it has some value.

Your porsche example is forgetting that the porsche dealer still wants this person's $$$ - if the dude says "ill either buy a porsche if you give me the right price, or I'm going to buy a vacation home" - that is a legitimate position to have. The porsche dealer can then evaluate whether they want this guy's money enough to give him an offer that he might take. He's not going to go to the lambhorgini dealer (which might motivate the porche dealer more) but he still wont be giving the guy $$ if they cant find a mutually agreeable price.


Yeah that's not how it works.

A law school will give zero value to your polysci offer


Zero value seems harsh to me. if you tell a school that you'll walk if they don't pay up, that's something.

I agree that its not the most credible of threats, but hey, im not OP.

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UVA2B
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby UVA2B » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:30 pm

gargleblaster wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
gargleblaster wrote:Yes you can.


The only thing a negotiation is, is telling the other party to pay up or you walk.

If your credible threat is to walk to a PHD program and you need the JD programs to pay up - that is a credible negotiation strategy.

Now I'm not going to say anthing about whether or not that will work - just that it is a credible negotiation strategy.


How is that credible?

"I really want to be a lawyer. You seem like a great school, but an unrelated program that will in no way help me become a lawyer and that operates under an entirely different set of financial rules is going to be cheaper. Gimme money."


You beat me to it.

"I really want a Porsche. You sell nice Porsches, but I have an offer on the table to travel Europe with a society of bards. What kind of discount can that get me on that 911 Turbo over there in the showroom if I forego this Shakespearean adventure?"


you're both only addressing one part of the transaction.

The schools want this person's LSAT & GPA to add to their class - that is worth something to the school - I'm not making assertions about how much relatively, just that it has some value.

Your porsche example is forgetting that the porsche dealer still wants this person's $$$ - if the dude says "ill either buy a porsche if you give me the right price, or I'm going to buy a vacation home" - that is a legitimate position to have. The porsche dealer can then evaluate whether they want this guy's money enough to give him an offer that he might take. He's not going to go to the lambhorgini dealer (which might motivate the porche dealer more) but he still wont be giving the guy $$ if they cant find a mutually agreeable price.


Yeah that's not how it works.

A law school will give zero value to your polysci offer


Zero value seems harsh to me. if you tell a school that you'll walk if they don't pay up, that's something.

I agree that its not the most credible of threats, but hey, im not OP.


You do realize that you're basically just a set of numbers that are completely replaceable if you don't go to that school, right? They admitted you because they wanted you to come to their law school, sure, but if you tell them you're thinking about walking away and not going to law school unless they increase your scholarship offer, you know what they're gonna do? Shrug their shoulders, wish you best of luck in the Ph.D and wade through the hundreds of other applications they've been poring over and find someone who can take your spot. You're fungible to them unless you give them reasons to be competitive. Not going to law school is not a reason they would need to compete.

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby NCGuy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:31 am

For the love of God, take the Ph.D. You'll graduate debt free and you'll probably be just as employable.

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:52 am

NCGuy wrote:For the love of God, take the Ph.D. You'll graduate debt free and you'll probably be just as employable.


I think you may want to meet some people with doctorates in fields like Poli Sci. A good law school pretty much guarantees employment as an attorney. A good PhD program in a non-science field can have graduates struggling to find non-adjunct work in academia years after they've earned their degree.

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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby NCGuy » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:12 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
NCGuy wrote:For the love of God, take the Ph.D. You'll graduate debt free and you'll probably be just as employable.


I think you may want to meet some people with doctorates in fields like Poli Sci. A good law school pretty much guarantees employment as an attorney. A good PhD program in a non-science field can have graduates struggling to find non-adjunct work in academia years after they've earned their degree.


It depends on the school, for sure. However, if OP goes to a middle of the road or even lower tier school, he could be six figures in debt AND unemployed. At least with a Ph.D, he's not carrying debt. In regards to Ph.D employment, a friend once told me that if you become an expert in a niche field and are good at selling yourself and your research, you'll do better than most.

I've always thought that a Ph.D in Poli Sci/JD would be an interesting credential on the employment on the academic market. I have no knowledge of how that carries though.

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Jack_Kelly
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby Jack_Kelly » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:14 pm

NCGuy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
NCGuy wrote:For the love of God, take the Ph.D. You'll graduate debt free and you'll probably be just as employable.


I think you may want to meet some people with doctorates in fields like Poli Sci. A good law school pretty much guarantees employment as an attorney. A good PhD program in a non-science field can have graduates struggling to find non-adjunct work in academia years after they've earned their degree.


It depends on the school, for sure. However, if OP goes to a middle of the road or even lower tier school, he could be six figures in debt AND unemployed. At least with a Ph.D, he's not carrying debt. In regards to Ph.D employment, a friend once told me that if you become an expert in a niche field and are good at selling yourself and your research, you'll do better than most.

I've always thought that a Ph.D in Poli Sci/JD would be an interesting credential on the employment on the academic market. I have no knowledge of how that carries though.

OP here (probably taking the JD). Nowhere near 6 figures as is, retaking the LSAT to try to get it to a full ride. Tier 2 school in region I'm from.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Can you use not JD competing offer in negotiation?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:42 pm

NCGuy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
NCGuy wrote:For the love of God, take the Ph.D. You'll graduate debt free and you'll probably be just as employable.


I think you may want to meet some people with doctorates in fields like Poli Sci. A good law school pretty much guarantees employment as an attorney. A good PhD program in a non-science field can have graduates struggling to find non-adjunct work in academia years after they've earned their degree.


It depends on the school, for sure. However, if OP goes to a middle of the road or even lower tier school, he could be six figures in debt AND unemployed. At least with a Ph.D, he's not carrying debt. In regards to Ph.D employment, a friend once told me that if you become an expert in a niche field and are good at selling yourself and your research, you'll do better than most.

I've always thought that a Ph.D in Poli Sci/JD would be an interesting credential on the employment on the academic market. I have no knowledge of how that carries though.

PhD employment is WAY worse than JD. Doing better than most doesn't actually mean you're going to do well. Also the PhD takes a lot longer, is a lot harder (you don't just sit through courses for 3 years and get a degree - many people do bail because they can't finish), and makes you even less qualified for anything other than academic work than a JD makes you for non-legal work. Admittedly you'll have a lot less debt (every PhD student I know relied on credit cards to some extent at some point), but the opportunity costs are way higher.

(For non-legal academia the JD is eh. It might add value for a small school who wants someone to advise pre-law but it's not that big of a deal. For legal academia the PhD helps, but it's still a really really small field to break into. For non-academic jobs it's going to be useless except for a very small cadre of unicorn think-tank kind of things, and even then you're probably going to have to justify the degrees rather than rely on them to get you the job.)




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