Columbia Law Fellowships

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palalc
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Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:00 pm

http://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... -and-loans

I have a question regarding the "Columbia Fellowships and Scholarships for Stated Purposes," which can be found through the above link after scrolling down a bit.

Although I am a 0L, I am interested in International Law and plan to pursue it during law school. This is pretty evident upon examination of my undergraduate/WE background. Therefore I am particularly interested in the "Charles B. Bretzfelder International Law Scholarship Fund" and the "W. Bayard Cutting, Jr. Fellowship."

How does one go about receiving said scholarships/fellowships? Can they only be received during the 2L and 3L year after demonstrating the pursuit of said fields?

If anyone has any insight into these awards, please let me know. Thank you.

cavalier1138
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:02 pm

"Applicants requesting financial assistance are automatically considered for all other fellowships described below; it is not necessary to request consideration for any particular one."

It's literally the first thing you read in the list of those types of scholarships.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:15 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:"Applicants requesting financial assistance are automatically considered for all other fellowships described below; it is not necessary to request consideration for any particular one."

It's literally the first thing you read in the list of those types of scholarships.


Sorry should've been more clear, I'm asking if anyone has had first-hand experience with these awards, and thus some particular insight into how/when they are awarded.

Ie. "Applicants" as used there doesn't refer to JD applicants but Aid applicants. So my question stands, is it available to incoming 1Ls? How/when is it awarded? etc..

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:28 pm

Nothing on that page indicates that it applies to students already enrolled in the school. You're overthinking this.

If a scholarship isn't meant to apply to potential 0Ls, it will specifically state that it's awarded to a rising 2L or 3L student. I would assume the award is given out the same time that any financial aid awards are given out from Columbia. They're not going to hold off on letting you know about a serious scholarship offer.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:44 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Nothing on that page indicates that it applies to students already enrolled in the school. You're overthinking this.

If a scholarship isn't meant to apply to potential 0Ls, it will specifically state that it's awarded to a rising 2L or 3L student. I would assume the award is given out the same time that any financial aid awards are given out from Columbia. They're not going to hold off on letting you know about a serious scholarship offer.


Good point. Just asking if anyone has received/had experience with these scholarships. I have never heard a single person mention receiving a named scholarship from Columbia aside from a Butler or Hamilton. My interviewer didn't seem to know what these scholarships were or how they worked either. So if anyone has any specific insight I'd appreciate hearing it.

Edit: I'm also a little curious as to how they award a 0L a scholarship for the pursuit of a particular field, especially given that the 1L curriculum is essentially set except for a single elective. Do they just take the 0L's word that they will study that subject in their 2L and 3L year?

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RSN
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby RSN » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:52 pm

Almost all of those aren't fellowships you'd ever put on a resume or anything, they're just named funds created by large gifts to the school restricted to use as financial aid. At some point the school would probably notify you "you're the recipient of the xyz fellowship" and probably make you write a thank you note to the donor, but that's almost definitely the full extent. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the "subjects" named (and to be clear you don't "study" subjects in law school really). It's just whatever funding they use to cover the part of the tuition they're not making you pay.

Tl;dr this is a non-thing and don't worry about it.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:09 am

LetsGoMets wrote:Almost all of those aren't fellowships you'd ever put on a resume or anything, they're just named funds created by large gifts to the school restricted to use as financial aid. At some point the school would probably notify you "you're the recipient of the xyz fellowship" and probably make you write a thank you note to the donor, but that's almost definitely the full extent. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the "subjects" named (and to be clear you don't "study" subjects in law school really). It's just whatever funding they use to cover the part of the tuition they're not making you pay.

Tl;dr this is a non-thing and don't worry about it.


Ya I'm not thinking in terms of prestige or resume building, just purely for the purpose of maximizing my Aid Award. And in this case I'm not even really concerned with that because it's out of my hands. I'm just curious if anyone has ever heard of or known a recipient of one of these.

Edit: I assume you are currently or were in law school given your stated point of view, and let me preface this bby saying I am a 0L so you most likely have more experience than I, but it is my understanding that after 1L you most certainly are able to study "subjects" through the ability to pick your electives?

Also, so youre saying those gifts are just pooled and used how the financial aid office sees fit, regardless of the recipients interests? I can't imagine that they would ignore the wishes of the individual who established the gift.
Last edited by palalc on Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby UVA2B » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:16 am

palalc wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:Almost all of those aren't fellowships you'd ever put on a resume or anything, they're just named funds created by large gifts to the school restricted to use as financial aid. At some point the school would probably notify you "you're the recipient of the xyz fellowship" and probably make you write a thank you note to the donor, but that's almost definitely the full extent. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the "subjects" named (and to be clear you don't "study" subjects in law school really). It's just whatever funding they use to cover the part of the tuition they're not making you pay.

Tl;dr this is a non-thing and don't worry about it.


Ya I'm not thinking in terms of prestige or resume building, just purely for the purpose of maximizing my Aid Award. And in this case I'm not even really concerned with that because it's out of my hands. I'm just curious if anyone has ever heard of or known a recipient of one of these.


Not sure how the quote below doesn't explain your question.

"Applicants requesting financial assistance are automatically considered for all other fellowships described below; it is not necessary to request consideration for any particular one."


People have received these scholarships/fellowships previously. The consideration is automatic in determining your aid. Nothing you do will help/dissuade decision makers from giving you the aid.

What could recipients actually help with?

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:21 am

UVA2B wrote:
palalc wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:Almost all of those aren't fellowships you'd ever put on a resume or anything, they're just named funds created by large gifts to the school restricted to use as financial aid. At some point the school would probably notify you "you're the recipient of the xyz fellowship" and probably make you write a thank you note to the donor, but that's almost definitely the full extent. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the "subjects" named (and to be clear you don't "study" subjects in law school really). It's just whatever funding they use to cover the part of the tuition they're not making you pay.

Tl;dr this is a non-thing and don't worry about it.


Ya I'm not thinking in terms of prestige or resume building, just purely for the purpose of maximizing my Aid Award. And in this case I'm not even really concerned with that because it's out of my hands. I'm just curious if anyone has ever heard of or known a recipient of one of these.


Not sure how the quote below doesn't explain your question.

"Applicants requesting financial assistance are automatically considered for all other fellowships described below; it is not necessary to request consideration for any particular one."


People have received these scholarships/fellowships previously. The consideration is automatic in determining your aid. Nothing you do will help/dissuade decision makers from giving you the aid.

What could recipients actually help with?


Well given what the previous poster said above, about it having nothing to do with the "subjects" etc, they could help with clarification. But beyond that, they could explain the logistics of receiving these aid awards. If they are a recipient, then they would be a current or former Columbia Law student who could help explain how common/popular these aid awards are.

Edit: I appreciate what I assume is you trying to help, but if you have no first-hand experience to add, you need not post. If no one with said experience sees this thread, then let it die off.

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UVA2B
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby UVA2B » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:31 am

palalc wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
palalc wrote:
LetsGoMets wrote:Almost all of those aren't fellowships you'd ever put on a resume or anything, they're just named funds created by large gifts to the school restricted to use as financial aid. At some point the school would probably notify you "you're the recipient of the xyz fellowship" and probably make you write a thank you note to the donor, but that's almost definitely the full extent. I don't think it actually has anything to do with the "subjects" named (and to be clear you don't "study" subjects in law school really). It's just whatever funding they use to cover the part of the tuition they're not making you pay.

Tl;dr this is a non-thing and don't worry about it.


Ya I'm not thinking in terms of prestige or resume building, just purely for the purpose of maximizing my Aid Award. And in this case I'm not even really concerned with that because it's out of my hands. I'm just curious if anyone has ever heard of or known a recipient of one of these.


Not sure how the quote below doesn't explain your question.

"Applicants requesting financial assistance are automatically considered for all other fellowships described below; it is not necessary to request consideration for any particular one."


People have received these scholarships/fellowships previously. The consideration is automatic in determining your aid. Nothing you do will help/dissuade decision makers from giving you the aid.

What could recipients actually help with?


Well given what the previous poster said above, about it having nothing to do with the "subjects" etc, they could help with clarification. But beyond that, they could explain the logistics of receiving these aid awards. If they are a recipient, then they would be a current or former Columbia Law student who could help explain how common/popular these aid awards are.

Edit: I appreciate what I assume is you trying to help, but if you have no first-hand experience to add, you need not post. If no one with said experience sees this thread, then let it die off.


Fuck me, got it.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby mjb447 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:02 am

palalc wrote:Edit: I assume you are currently or were in law school given your stated point of view, and let me preface this bby saying I am a 0L so you most likely have more experience than I, but it is my understanding that after 1L you most certainly are able to study "subjects" through the ability to pick your electives?

You can pick electives in a subject you're interested in, but (at least at most schools for most people) it's not that similar to a major in college where you're eventually basically taking only upper-level classes in your chosen major and are affiliated with that subject and department for administrative purposes. As it relates to this discussion, because it's much less common to pick a subject matter or 'department' to be affiliated with in law school, the administration doesn't really pick students out for their general studies in X area of law in the same way that they give major-affiliated awards in undergrad. (Individual research items [e.g. 'best paper in X subject' awards] are different and other exceptions probably apply, YMMV, etc.)

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:08 am

mjb447 wrote:
palalc wrote:Edit: I assume you are currently or were in law school given your stated point of view, and let me preface this bby saying I am a 0L so you most likely have more experience than I, but it is my understanding that after 1L you most certainly are able to study "subjects" through the ability to pick your electives?

You can pick electives in a subject you're interested in, but (at least at most schools for most people) it's not that similar to a major in college where you're eventually basically taking only upper-level classes in your chosen major and are affiliated with that subject and department for administrative purposes. As it relates to this discussion, because it's much less common to pick a subject matter or 'department' to be affiliated with in law school, the administration doesn't really pick students out for their general studies in X area of law in the same way that they give major-affiliated awards in undergrad. (Individual research items [e.g. 'best paper in X subject' awards] are different and other exceptions probably apply, YMMV, etc.)


Interesting, I see what you're saying. So would you then agree with the poster above in that these awards most likely are not based on the pursuit of their specified field, but rather pooled in some way and given out as the financial aid office sees fit? (probably paraphrasing his starement, more my question than his at this point).

Edit: Also would like to add that I wasn't under the impression that specialization in law school was similar to a major in undergrad, but I was under the impression that one could affiliate with a certain "department" or specialization of interest, whether for administrative purposes or otherwise, so I appreciate the insight.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby mjb447 » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:34 am

palalc wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
palalc wrote:Edit: I assume you are currently or were in law school given your stated point of view, and let me preface this bby saying I am a 0L so you most likely have more experience than I, but it is my understanding that after 1L you most certainly are able to study "subjects" through the ability to pick your electives?

You can pick electives in a subject you're interested in, but (at least at most schools for most people) it's not that similar to a major in college where you're eventually basically taking only upper-level classes in your chosen major and are affiliated with that subject and department for administrative purposes. As it relates to this discussion, because it's much less common to pick a subject matter or 'department' to be affiliated with in law school, the administration doesn't really pick students out for their general studies in X area of law in the same way that they give major-affiliated awards in undergrad. (Individual research items [e.g. 'best paper in X subject' awards] are different and other exceptions probably apply, YMMV, etc.)


Interesting, I see what you're saying. So would you then agree with the poster above in that these awards most likely are not based on the pursuit of their specified field, but rather pooled in some way and given out as the financial aid office sees fit? (probably paraphrasing his starement, more my question than his at this point).

Edit: Also would like to add that I wasn't under the impression that specialization in law school was similar to a major in undergrad, but I was under the impression that one could affiliate with a certain "department" or specialization of interest, whether for administrative purposes or otherwise, so I appreciate the insight.

Yeah, what the other poster said sounds right to me asa general matter. I have no specific knowledge about Columbia, though. (Also, I'm glossing over some nuance for purposes of this discussion - my school had 'concentrations' in advocacy, business law, etc., so you're right that they exist, but (at least at my school) you picked them right before graduation if you wanted them on your diploma and had the credits. You didn't pick them as you were going through and the school wasn't aware of what you were concentrating on until the very end, so they didn't affect how financial aid was doled out.)

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:34 am

mjb447 wrote:
palalc wrote:
mjb447 wrote:
palalc wrote:Edit: I assume you are currently or were in law school given your stated point of view, and let me preface this bby saying I am a 0L so you most likely have more experience than I, but it is my understanding that after 1L you most certainly are able to study "subjects" through the ability to pick your electives?

You can pick electives in a subject you're interested in, but (at least at most schools for most people) it's not that similar to a major in college where you're eventually basically taking only upper-level classes in your chosen major and are affiliated with that subject and department for administrative purposes. As it relates to this discussion, because it's much less common to pick a subject matter or 'department' to be affiliated with in law school, the administration doesn't really pick students out for their general studies in X area of law in the same way that they give major-affiliated awards in undergrad. (Individual research items [e.g. 'best paper in X subject' awards] are different and other exceptions probably apply, YMMV, etc.)


Interesting, I see what you're saying. So would you then agree with the poster above in that these awards most likely are not based on the pursuit of their specified field, but rather pooled in some way and given out as the financial aid office sees fit? (probably paraphrasing his starement, more my question than his at this point).

Edit: Also would like to add that I wasn't under the impression that specialization in law school was similar to a major in undergrad, but I was under the impression that one could affiliate with a certain "department" or specialization of interest, whether for administrative purposes or otherwise, so I appreciate the insight.

Yeah, what the other poster said sounds right to me asa general matter. I have no specific knowledge about Columbia, though. (Also, I'm glossing over some nuance for purposes of this discussion - my school had 'concentrations' in advocacy, business law, etc., so you're right that they exist, but (at least at my school) you picked them right before graduation if you wanted them on your diploma and had the credits. You didn't pick them as you were going through and the school wasn't aware of what you were concentrating on until the very end, so they didn't affect how financial aid was doled out.)


Interesting, thanks for the insight. This just makes me even more curious as to how/why these awards exist though haha. Iv heard of similar aid awards at other schools, but have yet to come across a school with such an extensive list.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:20 am

palalc wrote:Also, so youre saying those gifts are just pooled and used how the financial aid office sees fit, regardless of the recipients interests?

Yes.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:40 am

Nebby wrote:
palalc wrote:Also, so youre saying those gifts are just pooled and used how the financial aid office sees fit, regardless of the recipients interests?

Yes.


Interesting. I see your a CLS alumn, so were these named gifts commonly spoken about when it came to financial aid, or were they rarely mentioned given that they are just pooled?

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby Nebby » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:47 am

palalc wrote:
Nebby wrote:
palalc wrote:Also, so youre saying those gifts are just pooled and used how the financial aid office sees fit, regardless of the recipients interests?

Yes.


Interesting. I see your a CLS alumn, so were these named gifts commonly spoken about when it came to financial aid, or were they rarely mentioned given that they are just pooled?

Rarely mentioned.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:50 am

Nebby wrote:
palalc wrote:
Nebby wrote:
palalc wrote:Also, so youre saying those gifts are just pooled and used how the financial aid office sees fit, regardless of the recipients interests?

Yes.


Interesting. I see your a CLS alumn, so were these named gifts commonly spoken about when it came to financial aid, or were they rarely mentioned given that they are just pooled?

Rarely mentioned.


Interesting, thanks for the insight

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby blessup » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:30 pm

palalc wrote:http://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions/graduate-legal-studies/llm-program/financial-assistance-fellowships-and-loans

I have a question regarding the "Columbia Fellowships and Scholarships for Stated Purposes," which can be found through the above link after scrolling down a bit.

Although I am a 0L, I am interested in International Law and plan to pursue it during law school. This is pretty evident upon examination of my undergraduate/WE background. Therefore I am particularly interested in the "Charles B. Bretzfelder International Law Scholarship Fund" and the "W. Bayard Cutting, Jr. Fellowship."

How does one go about receiving said scholarships/fellowships? Can they only be received during the 2L and 3L year after demonstrating the pursuit of said fields?

If anyone has any insight into these awards, please let me know. Thank you.


So, the page you link is for LLM students (i.e., people who already have a JD or equivalent). I know that the fellowship you have identified technically lists eligibility for JD students, but I think, given that this fellowship appears nowhere on the JD financial aid page (https://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions ... troduction) or any of its sub-pages, I would not count on having access to this fellowship.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:00 pm

blessup wrote:
palalc wrote:http://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions/graduate-legal-studies/llm-program/financial-assistance-fellowships-and-loans

I have a question regarding the "Columbia Fellowships and Scholarships for Stated Purposes," which can be found through the above link after scrolling down a bit.

Although I am a 0L, I am interested in International Law and plan to pursue it during law school. This is pretty evident upon examination of my undergraduate/WE background. Therefore I am particularly interested in the "Charles B. Bretzfelder International Law Scholarship Fund" and the "W. Bayard Cutting, Jr. Fellowship."

How does one go about receiving said scholarships/fellowships? Can they only be received during the 2L and 3L year after demonstrating the pursuit of said fields?

If anyone has any insight into these awards, please let me know. Thank you.


So, the page you link is for LLM students (i.e., people who already have a JD or equivalent). I know that the fellowship you have identified technically lists eligibility for JD students, but I think, given that this fellowship appears nowhere on the JD financial aid page (https://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions ... troduction) or any of its sub-pages, I would not count on having access to this fellowship.


Ya I noticed that as well, so that's definitely a possibility. Although given the descriptions below some of the fellowships/scholarships, I would doubt that they are all for LLM students.



Edit: Off topic bored rant deleted
Last edited by palalc on Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:06 pm

palalc wrote:Also, just to clarify, LLM students don't necessarily have a JD or equivalent. It is my understanding, through low-level work in several law firms abroad, that an LLM is the degree many countries maintain in the same way we maintain a JD in the U.S., to qualify an individual to practice law. However, actually, an LLM is roughly a masters in the study of law, whereas a JD is closer to a doctorate (i.e. PhD). In other words, the U.S. sets a higher requirement before it allows one to become a practicing attorney. The point being, one is not required to obtain a JD before an LLM, in fact most international students usually do it in the opposite order. U.S. students will sometimes get an LLM after their JD though if they are planning on practicing in a country that more commonly recognizes an LLM, so if you were referring to that then I apologize for the misinterpretation.


This is very far afield, but that is not at all how an LLM works. The LLM is the advanced degree, even if the "D" in "JD" technically stands for "doctorate".

All LLM students have a legal degree in their home country. Since the US is the only country in the world that treats the entire study of law as a graduate field, all foreign LLM students have a bachelors in law. This is a JD-equivalent degree, even though it's not technically a graduate degree. The LLM is a degree designed to help foreign lawyers specialize their practice and/or practice in the US, and outside of Tax LLM programs, it is a useless money-sink for US students who think it "adds value" to their JD. But no matter how you slice it, foreign lawyers generally do not get their LLM and then go for a JD. Foreign lawyers who want to get a JD to practice in the US (I've heard this is required in some states that don't let LLMs sit for the bar) just start with a JD and forego an LLM entirely.

palalc
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Re: Columbia Law Fellowships

Postby palalc » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
palalc wrote:Also, just to clarify, LLM students don't necessarily have a JD or equivalent. It is my understanding, through low-level work in several law firms abroad, that an LLM is the degree many countries maintain in the same way we maintain a JD in the U.S., to qualify an individual to practice law. However, actually, an LLM is roughly a masters in the study of law, whereas a JD is closer to a doctorate (i.e. PhD). In other words, the U.S. sets a higher requirement before it allows one to become a practicing attorney. The point being, one is not required to obtain a JD before an LLM, in fact most international students usually do it in the opposite order. U.S. students will sometimes get an LLM after their JD though if they are planning on practicing in a country that more commonly recognizes an LLM, so if you were referring to that then I apologize for the misinterpretation.


This is very far afield, but that is not at all how an LLM works. The LLM is the advanced degree, even if the "D" in "JD" technically stands for "doctorate".

All LLM students have a legal degree in their home country. Since the US is the only country in the world that treats the entire study of law as a graduate field, all foreign LLM students have a bachelors in law. This is a JD-equivalent degree, even though it's not technically a graduate degree. The LLM is a degree designed to help foreign lawyers specialize their practice and/or practice in the US, and outside of Tax LLM programs, it is a useless money-sink for US students who think it "adds value" to their JD. But no matter how you slice it, foreign lawyers generally do not get their LLM and then go for a JD. Foreign lawyers who want to get a JD to practice in the US (I've heard this is required in some states that don't let LLMs sit for the bar) just start with a JD and forego an LLM entirely.


Haha I agree with that first clause, I must've deleted it as you were posting. But that's interesting and makes more sense. I guess I was basing my understanding of the LLM off of the combination of its name and the fact that I knew many states don't allow one to sit for the bar with only that degree. JD essentially = LLB is a good piece of info to have. I appreciate it.




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