Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
katthegreat11
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Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:16 pm

So I've been accepted to Stanford and that is far and away my top choice. However, going into that much debt, even for SLS, scares the shit out of me (I don't know my need-based package from SLS yet). So I'm trying to keep my options open.
Unfortunately I don't really have the numbers (168/3.99) for an initial offer of a full-ride at a T14. But do I have any kind of leverage, between the Stanford acceptance and the scholly amounts listed below (also on LSN, same username), to get a full-ride at a lower or mid T14? Is that even possible? Basically I don't know what to do haha, I don't have a strong second choice after Stanford, so there's no one school I'm trying to get good money at; I'm just trying to get significant money, because that's the only thing that would make me remotely consider not going to SLS.

Offers so far (3 year totals):
NYU - $78k ($90k if I don't make enough money my 2L summer)
Berkeley - $30k (lolololol)
Michigan - $90k
Duke - $75k
Cornell - $120k
other non-T14 offers

Also accepted to Chicago, Columbia, Penn, UVA, and Gtown, but no scholly offers yet.

cavalier1138
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:33 pm

HYS are a different beast for scholarships, because it's all done through need-based calculations. My understanding is that HYS only "negotiate" (in quotations because this is apparently an unreliable process) with HYS offers.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:35 pm

You're totally right, I'm not planning on negotiating with SLS, I'm trying to negotiate with other T14 schools to potentially get an offer that could compete with attending SLS.

20170322
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby 20170322 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:35 pm

I'll give some uncharacteristic advice: I think Stanford is as good as you're gonna get with your numbers, and I'd take it.

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nimbus cloud
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby nimbus cloud » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:37 pm

Tricky situation. Berkeley is hopeless. Michigan is stubborn this year. NYU is not going to compete with Cornell because the difference is small. So it's between Cornell v Stanford. I doubt you can get a full ride from Cornell (do they even have one?) but you can try to get it to 135k/150k.

Your best bet is to try to get something out of Stanford. Sticker anywhere is scary but, unless your goal is NYC biglaw, in your situation it might be worth it.

TragicBronson
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby TragicBronson » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:52 pm

I think that people miss the mark when they talk about schools only negotiating based on offers from peer schools, in their same market, etc. The law school game is a market, schools are trying to buy your numbers. They'll pay whatever they have to that they believe to be (1) necessary to get you (2) still a good buy for them. And what they have to pay to buy you off (or, believe they have to pay to buy you off) depends solely on your tastes and preferences.

The big catch is convincing them that your tastes and preferences truly are what you say they are (and this where tls started developing its "peer school, same market" dogma). If you want to go to nyc big law, they might not believe you when you say that your berkeley offer is where you'll go unless colombia pays more. If you just want big law in any market, they might not believe you when you say that you'll take the t30 full ride unless their t14 matches it. Similarly, if they just think you're prestige-whoring you may have a hard time convincing UVA to pay MORE than GULC since it seems like one would be willing to pay a premium or at least even-money for UVA over GULC.

So, IDK your goals, but if you have no geographic preference and just want a t14 at the highest scholarship possible, you can certainly use a lot of what you have to negotiate. For example, you may start by telling duke about your larger offer at higher-ranked Michigan, then sending both of those plus cornell to Berkeley, then when the 7-12 ranked schools start approaching cornell's send their offers to it and hope it goes full-ride, etc.
Last edited by TragicBronson on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:53 pm

SweetTort wrote:


You are probably right, I just can't totally mentally commit/close other windows of opportunities yet as I don't have my need-package from them. But I don't want to wait until I get that and miss out on negotiating. If I don't at least try I'll feel like I didn't explore all of my options thoroughly/do my research before taking on significant debt.

nimbus cloud wrote:


Yeah I was shocked about Berkeley honestly. Unfortunately, the only place I absolutely refuse to attend is Cornell- I went there for undergrad and I'm ready for a change. So a full-ride there doesn't help me.

My goal is not NYC biglaw, it's more government/PI in environmental law (although potentially starting in BigLaw to make a dent on my loans, but again, not in NYC).

20170322
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby 20170322 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:05 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
SweetTort wrote:


You are probably right, I just can't totally mentally commit/close other windows of opportunities yet as I don't have my need-package from them. But I don't want to wait until I get that and miss out on negotiating. If I don't at least try I'll feel like I didn't explore all of my options thoroughly/do my research before taking on significant debt.




I mean, that's fair, so feel free to explore. As someone who had to make the choice between HYS and t14 full ride, I would place about a 50-60k premium on HYS over a non-t6 school, if that's any help.

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nimbus cloud
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby nimbus cloud » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:06 pm

Maybe ask Cornell to increase their offer and then Duke to match it, if you would consider Duke at 120-150k.

I am guessing retake is not an option. Because two more points and you probably have a Dillard. But then you lose a year and run the risk of not improving and losing Stanford. So it's understandable.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:16 pm

nimbus cloud wrote:Maybe ask Cornell to increase their offer and then Duke to match it, if you would consider Duke at 120-150k.

I am guessing retake is not an option. Because two more points and you probably have a Dillard. But then you lose a year and run the risk of not improving and losing Stanford. So it's understandable.


Yeah I studied for 6 months and scored above my PT range so I don't think I'd have a good shot at improving. SLS is literally my dream, there is no other law school I want to attend as much as I want SLS. And I'm feeling like the fact that I got in, fairly unexpectedly given my LSAT, means I need to go haha. I guess I'm just looking for confirmation that it's my best option.

20170322
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby 20170322 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:24 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
nimbus cloud wrote:Maybe ask Cornell to increase their offer and then Duke to match it, if you would consider Duke at 120-150k.

I am guessing retake is not an option. Because two more points and you probably have a Dillard. But then you lose a year and run the risk of not improving and losing Stanford. So it's understandable.


Yeah I studied for 6 months and scored above my PT range so I don't think I'd have a good shot at improving. SLS is literally my dream, there is no other law school I want to attend as much as I want SLS. And I'm feeling like the fact that I got in, fairly unexpectedly given my LSAT, means I need to go haha. I guess I'm just looking for confirmation that it's my best option.



Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here; you should withdraw your other apps and commit to Stanford. Listen, you got really lucky by getting in at all. Your numbers are weak compared to the results you got, and you don't want to retake. You'll probably get a decent grant, reducing costs, and between great career options and a good LRAP you'll be able to pay your loans. If you had a full ride to a t14 and an acceptance to Stanford with no aid, this would be a different discussion. But Stanford here is the right decision.

Congrats on a great cycle, and enjoy CA.

Inversion
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Postby Inversion » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:39 pm

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Last edited by Inversion on Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:45 pm

Inversion wrote:OP, I feel you. Also accepted at SLS. I started doing some research, and everything looked great...until I headed over to LST and looked at the non-discounted price. It's a tough pill to swallow.

If you scored above your PT range after studying for 6 months, I think the case for retaking is iffy. Did you get any finaid for undergrad? If so I think there's a good chance you'll get at least something from SLS...


That's exactly how I'm feeling. Even for SLS it's so. much. freaking. money. The kind of debt that makes me question whether I want to be a lawyer at all; if money was no concern then 100% law school let's go I'm ready and psyched. But if being a lawyer means $250k in the hole? That's quite a commitment to a career path.

I did get substantial aid for undergrad, and my family's financial situation has gotten worse not better since then (death of a parent, previously both worked full-time), so I'm kind of expecting it won't be $0?

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:48 pm

SweetTort wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
nimbus cloud wrote:Maybe ask Cornell to increase their offer and then Duke to match it, if you would consider Duke at 120-150k.

I am guessing retake is not an option. Because two more points and you probably have a Dillard. But then you lose a year and run the risk of not improving and losing Stanford. So it's understandable.


Yeah I studied for 6 months and scored above my PT range so I don't think I'd have a good shot at improving. SLS is literally my dream, there is no other law school I want to attend as much as I want SLS. And I'm feeling like the fact that I got in, fairly unexpectedly given my LSAT, means I need to go haha. I guess I'm just looking for confirmation that it's my best option.



Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here; you should withdraw your other apps and commit to Stanford. Listen, you got really lucky by getting in at all. Your numbers are weak compared to the results you got, and you don't want to retake. You'll probably get a decent grant, reducing costs, and between great career options and a good LRAP you'll be able to pay your loans. If you had a full ride to a t14 and an acceptance to Stanford with no aid, this would be a different discussion. But Stanford here is the right decision.

Congrats on a great cycle, and enjoy CA.


Haha I don't think I'm quite ready for that kind of drastic action but I see your point. I know the stars aligned for me this cycle, and that my application package must have been absolutely killer to get these kinds of results. I know that SLS is right for me and that's probably where I'll end up. But I'm trying to be responsible and not just waltz into a $250k hole within seriously considering if it's the 100% best option I have to pursue my dream of being a lawyer.

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UVA2B
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:48 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
Inversion wrote:OP, I feel you. Also accepted at SLS. I started doing some research, and everything looked great...until I headed over to LST and looked at the non-discounted price. It's a tough pill to swallow.

If you scored above your PT range after studying for 6 months, I think the case for retaking is iffy. Did you get any finaid for undergrad? If so I think there's a good chance you'll get at least something from SLS...


That's exactly how I'm feeling. Even for SLS it's so. much. freaking. money. The kind of debt that makes me question whether I want to be a lawyer at all; if money was no concern then 100% law school let's go I'm ready and psyched. But if being a lawyer means $250k in the hole? That's quite a commitment to a career path.

I did get substantial aid for undergrad, and my family's financial situation has gotten worse not better since then (death of a parent, previously both worked full-time), so I'm kind of expecting it won't be $0?


The bolded could be huge. I'd wait on the need-based aid calculation before even considering making this decision.

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Mullens
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby Mullens » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:49 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
Inversion wrote:OP, I feel you. Also accepted at SLS. I started doing some research, and everything looked great...until I headed over to LST and looked at the non-discounted price. It's a tough pill to swallow.

If you scored above your PT range after studying for 6 months, I think the case for retaking is iffy. Did you get any finaid for undergrad? If so I think there's a good chance you'll get at least something from SLS...


That's exactly how I'm feeling. Even for SLS it's so. much. freaking. money. The kind of debt that makes me question whether I want to be a lawyer at all; if money was no concern then 100% law school let's go I'm ready and psyched. But if being a lawyer means $250k in the hole? That's quite a commitment to a career path.

I did get substantial aid for undergrad, and my family's financial situation has gotten worse not better since then (death of a parent, previously both worked full-time), so I'm kind of expecting it won't be $0?


It sounds like you should get a decent amount of aid from Stanford, then. In that case, your best bet to negotiate might be your Stanford offer to try to get a full-ride out of a T14.

Inversion
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Postby Inversion » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:56 pm

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Last edited by Inversion on Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:22 pm

UVA2B wrote:

Mullins wrote:


Hope y'all are right...

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:23 pm

Inversion wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Inversion wrote:OP, I feel you. Also accepted at SLS. I started doing some research, and everything looked great...until I headed over to LST and looked at the non-discounted price. It's a tough pill to swallow.

If you scored above your PT range after studying for 6 months, I think the case for retaking is iffy. Did you get any finaid for undergrad? If so I think there's a good chance you'll get at least something from SLS...


That's exactly how I'm feeling. Even for SLS it's so. much. freaking. money. The kind of debt that makes me question whether I want to be a lawyer at all; if money was no concern then 100% law school let's go I'm ready and psyched. But if being a lawyer means $250k in the hole? That's quite a commitment to a career path.

I did get substantial aid for undergrad, and my family's financial situation has gotten worse not better since then (death of a parent, previously both worked full-time), so I'm kind of expecting it won't be $0?


Somewhere I read/heard that the aid formula YLS (and thus presumably SLS, since it's supposed to give comparable $$) uses is more generous than the ones that undergrad colelges use. So even if they require a base loan amount for everyone, the family income ceiling that disqualifies you for aid is higher. Can't imagine why you wouldn't get an award with your situation (condolences about the loss of your parent btw).


That would be nice haha. We're supposed to find out this month I think, so I am cautiously optimistic? And thank you, I appreciate that.

Necho2
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby Necho2 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Just as a DP to help w/ Stanford, if you get an aid offer that you're really not happy with, try pleading your case in-person at ASW. Try to have a decent reason why their initial financial aid assessment doesn't work in your situation (something that their expected expenses package doesn't factor in, parental income that is counted but you won't have any access to b/c of younger siblings in college, etc.), and Dean Deal might try to reshuffle the formula for you a little bit. For me it wasn't enough to change the calculus, but I imagine there's something about being committed enough to show up and plead your case (particularly later in the cycle when she knows a bit more clearly where her aid funds are already allocated) that might help you out a bit.

Inversion
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Postby Inversion » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:34 pm

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Last edited by Inversion on Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

katthegreat11
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Re: Can I use any of this to negotiate a full-ride?

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:21 pm

Inversion wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Inversion wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Inversion wrote:OP, I feel you. Also accepted at SLS. I started doing some research, and everything looked great...until I headed over to LST and looked at the non-discounted price. It's a tough pill to swallow.

If you scored above your PT range after studying for 6 months, I think the case for retaking is iffy. Did you get any finaid for undergrad? If so I think there's a good chance you'll get at least something from SLS...


That's exactly how I'm feeling. Even for SLS it's so. much. freaking. money. The kind of debt that makes me question whether I want to be a lawyer at all; if money was no concern then 100% law school let's go I'm ready and psyched. But if being a lawyer means $250k in the hole? That's quite a commitment to a career path.

I did get substantial aid for undergrad, and my family's financial situation has gotten worse not better since then (death of a parent, previously both worked full-time), so I'm kind of expecting it won't be $0?


Somewhere I read/heard that the aid formula YLS (and thus presumably SLS, since it's supposed to give comparable $$) uses is more generous than the ones that undergrad colelges use. So even if they require a base loan amount for everyone, the family income ceiling that disqualifies you for aid is higher. Can't imagine why you wouldn't get an award with your situation (condolences about the loss of your parent btw).


That would be nice haha. We're supposed to find out this month I think, so I am cautiously optimistic? And thank you, I appreciate that.


Did you apply to Yale? If not they've extended their deadline until Saturday. Might be worth it for extra negotiating leverage.


Did not, not likely to happen haha so I'll prolly save my $$. I applied to Harvard but, unsurprisingly, no dice.

Inversion
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Postby Inversion » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:48 pm

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