Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
Employstats1
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Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:43 pm

School Name: Average indebtedness of 2015 graduates who incurred law school debt (Percent of grads with debt)

1. Thomas Jefferson School of Law: $172,726 (90%)

2. Columbia University: $168,627 (59%)

3. New York University: $166,022 (69%)

4. University of San Francisco: $162,434 (79%)

5. The John Marshall Law School: $162,264 (82%)

6. California Western School of Law: $162,260 (89%)

7. New York Law School: $161,910 (80%)

8. Florida Coastal School of Law: $160,942 (94%)

9. Georgetown University: $160,606 (73%)

10. American University (Washington): $160,274 (80%)

Source: http://www.jdjournal.com/2016/11/22/law ... hest-debt/

After looking through this list, I am in pure shock.

Npret
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:05 am

Why are you in shock? Had you not heard about the law school scam?

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UVA2B
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby UVA2B » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:09 am

Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?

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mudiverse
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby mudiverse » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:12 am

Reads like a banner ad

You should see what people do to themselves for car and house loans

kingpin101
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby kingpin101 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:13 am

LMAO 40% of Columbia students don't have any debt. Makes you realize just how rich a lot of them are.

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mjb447
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby mjb447 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:16 am

UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?

paging Ferrisjso

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UVA2B
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby UVA2B » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:22 am

mjb447 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?

paging Ferrisjso


He's been shockingly reasonable (with a tinge of old shtick) in the last ~12 hours, so maybe learning? Before you know it, he might recognize W&M on a homeless person's budget for <$150k is, how do you say it...insane? #Progress

Employstats1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:23 am

UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?


For people in the 'Financial Aid' forum I believe that most will be unaware. By no means am I someone who does not have a grasp on legal employment/debt. I just came across the article while doing research and felt like it was a good illustration of the growing law school loan bubble that I think is prevalent in the U.S.

Employstats1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:24 am

mudiverse wrote:Reads like a banner ad

You should see what people do to themselves for car and house loans


Unlike car and house loans, student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy :wink:

Employstats1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:28 am

Npret wrote:Why are you in shock? Had you not heard about the law school scam?


Yes I am aware of the problems surrounding for profit/unranked law schools. I was being a tad hyperbolic, but I came across the list, felt like it was a good representation of how bad things are/going to be when it comes to law school loan repayment. Sorry if it is not relevant info that people care about, but I thought it was worthy of a post.
Last edited by Employstats1 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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UVA2B
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby UVA2B » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:29 am

Employstats1 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?


For people in the 'Financial Aid' forum I believe that most will be unaware. By no means am I someone who does not have a grasp on legal employment/debt. I just came across the article while doing research and felt like it was a good illustration of the growing law school loan bubble that I think is prevalent in the U.S.


I won't comment on the general awareness of higher education loan debt bubble, because it's already well-established in these circles, while becoming problematic in the general population. But this list still proves nothing.

Are there countless bad investments for a law school education? Absolutely. Are you opening many eyes that Cooley or Thomas Jefferson are a huge part of that bubble here? Not likely.

It's a weird mix of worth it/likely not worth it/never worth it in that list, but it's a mere microcosm of the greater problem of federally guaranteed student loans not dischargeable in bankruptcy. In that sense, not at all groundbreaking/jaw-dropping.

Employstats1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:40 am

UVA2B wrote:
Employstats1 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?


For people in the 'Financial Aid' forum I believe that most will be unaware. By no means am I someone who does not have a grasp on legal employment/debt. I just came across the article while doing research and felt like it was a good illustration of the growing law school loan bubble that I think is prevalent in the U.S.


I won't comment on the general awareness of higher education loan debt bubble, because it's already well-established in these circles, while becoming problematic in the general population. But this list still proves nothing.

Are there countless bad investments for a law school education? Absolutely. Are you opening many eyes that Cooley or Thomas Jefferson are a huge part of that bubble here? Not likely.

It's a weird mix of worth it/likely not worth it/never worth it in that list, but it's a mere microcosm of the greater problem of federally guaranteed student loans not dischargeable in bankruptcy. In that sense, not at all groundbreaking/jaw-dropping.


I don't know. Looking through that list what stands out to me is the high number of schools that give their graduates no shot at paying back their loans in a traditional 10 year repayment program. Since most of these people will have to take advantage of IBR/PAYE/PSLF to pay back their loans I honestly don't know what the future holds for federal loan forgiveness as a whole. I think it is a potentially interesting discussion, but maybe others disagree. While a lot of the individuals who are in these situations have/will never visit TLS, it kind of makes me sad that there isn't more info out there for the general public/in undergraduate institutions. The list kind of opened my eyes to this, so I posted it for others to see.

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UVA2B
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby UVA2B » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:48 am

Employstats1 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:
Employstats1 wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Was there a point to this, or do you work for JD journal? Lots of people take on bad debt, and others take on big debt for potential upward mobility. Do you think this is sparking new discussion among people who aren't aware?


For people in the 'Financial Aid' forum I believe that most will be unaware. By no means am I someone who does not have a grasp on legal employment/debt. I just came across the article while doing research and felt like it was a good illustration of the growing law school loan bubble that I think is prevalent in the U.S.


I won't comment on the general awareness of higher education loan debt bubble, because it's already well-established in these circles, while becoming problematic in the general population. But this list still proves nothing.

Are there countless bad investments for a law school education? Absolutely. Are you opening many eyes that Cooley or Thomas Jefferson are a huge part of that bubble here? Not likely.

It's a weird mix of worth it/likely not worth it/never worth it in that list, but it's a mere microcosm of the greater problem of federally guaranteed student loans not dischargeable in bankruptcy. In that sense, not at all groundbreaking/jaw-dropping.


I don't know. Looking through that list what stands out to me is the high number of schools that give their graduates no shot at paying back their loans in a traditional 10 year repayment program. Since most of these people will have to take advantage of IBR/PAYE/PSLF to pay back their loans I honestly don't know what the future holds for federal loan forgiveness as a whole. I think it is a potentially interesting discussion, but maybe others disagree. While a lot of the individuals who are in these situations have/will never visit TLS, it kind of makes me sad that there isn't more info out there for the general public/in undergraduate institutions. The list kind of opened my eyes to this, so I posted it for others to see.


It's not particularly interesting, because the people taking $180k debt for TJ is universally bad debt. And you're right that it's likely no one taking on that kind of debt will look for advice here about their situation. It's tragically consuming students of higher education.

But you're still failing a basic premise: those doing research will find your post, and change course as a result. It's just not the reality of this bubble. Otherwise the legal education industry would have experienced a market shift when consumers vacated the space. But that's not what happened. People at TLS are gaining exponential guidance on what to do for this financial investment, hopefully wisely, but this space is not reaching the types who are investing $190k for TJ.

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mjb447
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby mjb447 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:55 am

All that really stands out to me from this list is that this doesn't appear to be a very good metric for measuring how 'good' a school's typical outcome is or how much debt trouble its typical student is in. $170k of debt from Columbia is so, so much different than $170k of debt from Thomas Jefferson.

cavalier1138
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:09 am

mjb447 wrote:All that really stands out to me from this list is that this doesn't appear to be a very good metric for measuring how 'good' a school's typical outcome is or how much debt trouble its typical student is in. $170k of debt from Columbia is so, so much different than $170k of debt from Thomas Jefferson.


Yeah, that's the main thing about this list. New York schools top the list by default due to high costs of living, but comparing the debt at Columbia/NYU to the debt from NYLS is absurd.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:00 am

Interesting list since it shows percent of graduates with debt.

As noted above, a primary factor is that student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. This gives law schools a license to charge more for tuition & lenders an almost risk free license to lend mortgage-like sums of money as an unsecured educational loan. Creates a readily available supply of funds to borrowers who do not need to prove creditworthiness. (Somewhat similar to the almost unrestrained mortgage lending policies--without the need to commit fraud by liar loans & unverified income and asset claims accompanied by rubber-stamped appraisal values-- that created the housing crisis/price collapse in 2007 through 2011 or so.)

This was not always the case. The bankruptcy laws changed in 2005/2006 (if I recall correctly) after pressure from the credit card industry which lobbied the US Congress in an intense effort to limit the availability of Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

A frustrating aspect is that this problem is easily correctible for future law & other students by a simple amendment to the US bankruptcy laws. Unlike medical schools, for example, which are restrained by limited essential resources (e.g. too few cadavers), anyone can open a law school or undergraduate institution. Bolstered by free flowing money via almost unlimited loans given without financial creditworthiness qualification requirements & without risk due to the current bankruptcy laws, you have too many law schools generating too many law graduates without a corresponding market demand. That's why your local barista has a law degree. Starbuck's would survive if a law degree were a requirement as a condition of employment for their servers.

Educational institutions have become the seller setting a price without regard to market demand & without the necessity of appraisals or evaluation of the borrower's creditworthiness because lenders are protected by impotent bankruptcy laws.

katthegreat11
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:02 am

Why do you think U Chicago is so low? I'm not surprised that Michigan and Duke are lower thanks to COL, or that Yale and Stanford are low because of need-based aid, but I would think COL in Chicago would drive it higher up the list. The order of T14 schools on that list is:

Columbia
NYU
Georgetown
Northwestern
Cornell
Harvard
UVA
Berkeley
Penn
Michigan
Stanford
Duke
Chicago
Yale

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poptart123
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby poptart123 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:14 am

But they all got big law so there is nothing to worry about... right?

Monday
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Monday » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:15 am

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Last edited by Monday on Wed May 10, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zot1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby zot1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:16 am

Employstats1 wrote:
mudiverse wrote:Reads like a banner ad

You should see what people do to themselves for car and house loans


Unlike car and house loans, student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy :wink:


Some people believe a loan for a law degree is a better investment than car/house loans because the former can produce a stream of income.

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grand inquisitor
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby grand inquisitor » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:25 am

i hadn't heard of thomas jefferson law. must be a solid school for that debt load.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:51 am

grand inquisitor wrote:i hadn't heard of thomas jefferson law. must be a solid school for that debt load.


I heard that UVA is the Thomas Jefferson School of Law of the East. Kinda like how Stanford is the Harvard of the West.

Employstats1
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Employstats1 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:22 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
grand inquisitor wrote:i hadn't heard of thomas jefferson law. must be a solid school for that debt load.


I heard that UVA is the Thomas Jefferson School of Law of the East. Kinda like how Stanford is the Harvard of the West.


Didn't you know... law schools named after important people = important jobs after graduation

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:29 pm

Employstats1 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
grand inquisitor wrote:i hadn't heard of thomas jefferson law. must be a solid school for that debt load.


I heard that UVA is the Thomas Jefferson School of Law of the East. Kinda like how Stanford is the Harvard of the West.


Didn't you know... law schools named after important people = important jobs after graduation


That's exactly what Donald Trump's lawyer, Michael Cohen, said to himself as he applied ED to Cooley Law.

Npret
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Re: Jaw just hit the floor... Top 10 schools by average debt of c/o 2015 graduate

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:55 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:Why do you think U Chicago is so low? I'm not surprised that Michigan and Duke are lower thanks to COL, or that Yale and Stanford are low because of need-based aid, but I would think COL in Chicago would drive it higher up the list. The order of T14 schools on that list is:

Columbia
NYU
Georgetown
Northwestern
Cornell
Harvard
UVA
Berkeley
Penn
Michigan
Stanford
Duke
Chicago
Yale

Smaller class size and wealthy Midwesterners who don't need to borrow?




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