Do this many people really pay sticker price?

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pyramidenergy888
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Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby pyramidenergy888 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:21 pm

Been looking at the 509 form of various law schools. There's usually a small amount of people who it says get no scholarships whatsoever... this is true even for lower ranked schools... Are there really people out there paying $50k in tuition every year to go to law school?

cavalier1138
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:24 pm

Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.

curry1
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby curry1 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:25 pm

pyramidenergy888 wrote:Been looking at the 509 form of various law schools. There's usually a small amount of people who it says get no scholarships whatsoever... this is true even for lower ranked schools... Are there really people out there paying $50k in tuition every year to go to law school?


Yes.

curry1
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby curry1 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:28 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.

There are lots of these kids and then a good number that tacitly understand that their parents will support them/they will inherit loads of money even if they aren't directly paying for law school.

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RCSOB657
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby RCSOB657 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:29 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.


Or federal loans.

pyramidenergy888
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby pyramidenergy888 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:30 pm

curry1 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.

There are lots of these kids and then a good number that tacitly understand that their parents will support them/they will inherit loads of money even if they aren't directly paying for law school.


Yeah.... I guess for some cost isn't an issue. Still, seems like the value is not very good to pay $50k/year for most schools. That's a ****load of money :roll:

Npret
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Npret » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:29 pm

pyramidenergy888 wrote:
curry1 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.

There are lots of these kids and then a good number that tacitly understand that their parents will support them/they will inherit loads of money even if they aren't directly paying for law school.


Yeah.... I guess for some cost isn't an issue. Still, seems like the value is not very good to pay $50k/year for most schools. That's a ****load of money :roll:


People take full loans too because of whatever reason that makes sense to them. But a significant number of law students will have family money or family support greatly reducing the cost.

I think most people with massive loans don't quite get that they are borrowing for a piece of paper and a potential career in a saturated profession, but maybe they do. Hard to know how much people understand before they start or how willing they are to learn about careers. I'm jaded by seeing 0Ls looking only at biglaw salary, planning how they will spend that salary and wondering about bonuses, and nothing else. That's before they have even had a single law lecture much less an exam.

pyramidenergy888
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby pyramidenergy888 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:11 am

... Yeah all this financial stuff had never really hit me until now. Just looked up Cooley law has around 500 students paying sticker at $50k a year... what??? How are people able to pay that kind of money back?

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Kinch08
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Kinch08 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:36 am

pyramidenergy888 wrote:Just looked up Cooley law has around 500 students paying sticker at $50k a year... what??? How are people able to pay that kind of money back?


Is that true? Dear God.

pyramidenergy888
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby pyramidenergy888 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:03 am

Kinch08 wrote:
pyramidenergy888 wrote:Just looked up Cooley law has around 500 students paying sticker at $50k a year... what??? How are people able to pay that kind of money back?


Is that true? Dear God.


Check it out for yourself:

http://www.cooley.edu/publicinformation ... mation.pdf

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Thelaw23
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Thelaw23 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:49 am

It's 2 factors.

1 - "Lawyer" is a profession that used to be known as the career where you become a lawyer and just make tons of money. Back in the 1970's - early 2000's you could go to shitty schools and still make bank after. A lot of the older partners in BigLaw firms aren't from prestigious schools.

The trend has greatly changed since, but the notion and reputation of the career hasn't.


2 - People who just want to become lawyers but aren't intelligent/determined enough to get a good LSAT score and get good scholarships.

There's a lot of "you shouldn't go to law school if you're not in at T14" sentiment on TLS which seems absurd to me. According to TLS logic, there should only be around 4000 lawyers graduating a year from T14 and that's it. If a person has a long life dream of becoming a lawyer but just isn't built for the LSAT that shouldn't stop him from trying to fulfill his or her dream.

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waldorf
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby waldorf » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:55 am

Npret wrote:
pyramidenergy888 wrote:
curry1 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Never underestimate the number of kids whose parents pay for everything.

There are lots of these kids and then a good number that tacitly understand that their parents will support them/they will inherit loads of money even if they aren't directly paying for law school.


Yeah.... I guess for some cost isn't an issue. Still, seems like the value is not very good to pay $50k/year for most schools. That's a ****load of money :roll:


People take full loans too because of whatever reason that makes sense to them. But a significant number of law students will have family money or family support greatly reducing the cost.

I think most people with massive loans don't quite get that they are borrowing for a piece of paper and a potential career in a saturated profession, but maybe they do. Hard to know how much people understand before they start or how willing they are to learn about careers. I'm jaded by seeing 0Ls looking only at biglaw salary, planning how they will spend that salary and wondering about bonuses, and nothing else. That's before they have even had a single law lecture much less an exam.


+1. I think a lot of people - especially KJDs - have zero concept of money and how much it costs to actually live in the real world. They don't understand the amount they're borrowing and figure they'll just worry about it later.

cavalier1138
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:12 am

Thelaw23 wrote:There's a lot of "you shouldn't go to law school if you're not in at T14" sentiment on TLS which seems absurd to me. According to TLS logic, there should only be around 4000 lawyers graduating a year from T14 and that's it. If a person has a long life dream of becoming a lawyer but just isn't built for the LSAT that shouldn't stop him from trying to fulfill his or her dream.


First, no there isn't. No one is "T14 or bust" in cases where the OP has clearly indicated an interest in a career that doesn't require a T14 degree. You can find multiple threads in the "Choosing a Law School" forum right now where OPs are being directed to good state schools, etc.

And there's no need to worry that the LSAT will stop someone from trying to fulfill their dream of being a lawyer. Their degree from Cooley will effectively end that dream for them, and then they'll spend the next 25+ years buried under a crushing amount of debt that they took out on the assumption that moxie makes up for lack of aptitude.

Honestly, some attitudes on here towards the efficacy of the LSAT are downright dangerous. I don't think standardized testing is the ultimate gauge of someone's abilities, but to completely reject it as any kind of objective measuring stick is idiotic. If we were discussing medical schools, no one would be stupid enough to claim that someone with no aptitude for biology and a low MCAT score should ignore that in favor of their "dream" of being a doctor. The only difference is that medical schools take responsibility for turning out doctors who won't kill people, so they won't take that hypothetical student, even at the lowest-ranked med school in the country. But law schools of a certain tier don't give a damn if their graduates aren't capable of passing the bar or adequately representing their clients. That's why most people think the entire profession is oversaturated (aside from the numbers, which objectively prove that it's oversaturated).

CanadianWolf
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:23 am

Many law students attend publicly supported law schools that charge less then $29,000 or so per year. For example:

Alabama under $23,000
Arizona $24,500
Arizona State $27,000
Arkansas both locations about $15,000
UConn $28,000
Fla state $21,000
U Florida $22,300
Georgia State $17,000
U Georgia $19,500
Hawaii $21,000
Idaho $17,300
Northern Illinois $19,300
Southern Illinois $19,500
IU-Indy $25,700
Iowa $24,200
Kansas $21,800
Washburn $20,000
Northern Kentucky $17,600
U Kentucky $21,700
Louisville $20,300
LSU $22,000
Maine $23,600
UMass-Dartmouth $25,000
U Mississippi $15,000
Missouri $20,800
Missouri-K.C. $18,500
Nebraska $14,700
UNLV $25,800
Rutgers $26,900
New Mexico $16,500
CUNY $14,700
SUNY Buffalo $27,000
UNC $23,000
North Dakota $11,200
Cleveland State $25,000
Ohio State $29,200
Akron $24,500
U Cincinnati $24,000
Toledo $19,600
Oklahoma $19,900
Temple $23,400
South Carolina $24,200
South Dakota $14,700
Memphis $18,400
Tennessee $19,300
Texas Tech $23,300
Houston $29,800
BYU $12,000
Utah $25,800
Wm. & Mary $30,800
George Mason $25,400
U Washington $32,000
Wisconsin $21,400
Wyoming $14,900

BigZuck
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:42 am

Thelaw23 wrote:It's 2 factors.

1 - "Lawyer" is a profession that used to be known as the career where you become a lawyer and just make tons of money. Back in the 1970's - early 2000's you could go to shitty schools and still make bank after. A lot of the older partners in BigLaw firms aren't from prestigious schools.

The trend has greatly changed since, but the notion and reputation of the career hasn't.


2 - People who just want to become lawyers but aren't intelligent/determined enough to get a good LSAT score and get good scholarships.

There's a lot of "you shouldn't go to law school if you're not in at T14" sentiment on TLS which seems absurd to me. According to TLS logic, there should only be around 4000 lawyers graduating a year from T14 and that's it. If a person has a long life dream of becoming a lawyer but just isn't built for the LSAT that shouldn't stop him from trying to fulfill his or her dream.

There's no T14 or bust sentiment on TLS. That is a lie. You are lying. Or you can't read. Become a good reader.

4000 kids a year that actually should be in law school is actually way overshooting it IMO. If the criteria is "Actually wants to be a lawyer and knows what that entails" and "Making a sound investment" then the number is way, way lower than 4000. You think it should be higher???

BigZuck
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:44 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Many law students attend publicly supported law schools that charge less then $29,000 or so per year. For example:

Alabama under $23,000
Arizona $24,500
Arizona State $27,000
Arkansas both locations about $15,000
UConn $28,000
Fla state $21,000
U Florida $22,300
Georgia State $17,000
U Georgia $19,500
Hawaii $21,000
Idaho $17,300
Northern Illinois $19,300
Southern Illinois $19,500
IU-Indy $25,700
Iowa $24,200
Kansas $21,800
Washburn $20,000
Northern Kentucky $17,600
U Kentucky $21,700
Louisville $20,300
LSU $22,000
Maine $23,600
UMass-Dartmouth $25,000
U Mississippi $15,000
Missouri $20,800
Missouri-K.C. $18,500
Nebraska $14,700
UNLV $25,800
Rutgers $26,900
New Mexico $16,500
CUNY $14,700
SUNY Buffalo $27,000
UNC $23,000
North Dakota $11,200
Cleveland State $25,000
Ohio State $29,200
Akron $24,500
U Cincinnati $24,000
Toledo $19,600
Oklahoma $19,900
Temple $23,400
South Carolina $24,200
South Dakota $14,700
Memphis $18,400
Tennessee $19,300
Texas Tech $23,300
Houston $29,800
BYU $12,000
Utah $25,800
Wm. & Mary $30,800
George Mason $25,400
U Washington $32,000
Wisconsin $21,400
Wyoming $14,900

Lol

Canadianwolf is a TLS treasure

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Colonel_funkadunk
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Colonel_funkadunk » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:54 am

BigZuck wrote: There's no T14 or bust sentiment on TLS.


i feel like there was a lot of this was the mentality around 2011/12 when the market was still working its way back up, and contrarians have clung onto this statement that this is how TLS is when in reality this is not the the common mindset across TLS.

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Thelaw23
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Thelaw23 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:58 am

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, guys. I only started on this forum in 2016/2015 and the T14 or bust mentality is still very much here. Not everywhere but in many places.

In some ways it's not a bad thing. Heck, it forced me to retake my 165 bomb and get a much higher LSAT. I'm just wondering about the people who just can't make it to T14, this site must kill them lol.

I mean, the name of this website IS top law schools.

cavalier1138
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:11 am

Thelaw23 wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, guys. I only started on this forum in 2016/2015 and the T14 or bust mentality is still very much here. Not everywhere but in many places.

In some ways it's not a bad thing. Heck, it forced me to retake my 165 bomb and get a much higher LSAT. I'm just wondering about the people who just can't make it to T14, this site must kill them lol.

I mean, the name of this website IS top law schools.


Please find a T14 or bust thread.

Hint: Threads where the OP indicates that they want to go into biglaw don't count.

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UVA2B
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby UVA2B » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:18 am

Thelaw23 wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, guys. I only started on this forum in 2016/2015 and the T14 or bust mentality is still very much here. Not everywhere but in many places.

In some ways it's not a bad thing. Heck, it forced me to retake my 165 bomb and get a much higher LSAT. I'm just wondering about the people who just can't make it to T14, this site must kill them lol.

I mean, the name of this website IS top law schools.


You're right, the name says it all.

*Motion to change the name of TLS to sound-law-school-investments.com*

BigZuck
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:57 am

Thelaw23 wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, guys. I only started on this forum in 2016/2015 and the T14 or bust mentality is still very much here. Not everywhere but in many places.

In some ways it's not a bad thing. Heck, it forced me to retake my 165 bomb and get a much higher LSAT. I'm just wondering about the people who just can't make it to T14, this site must kill them lol.

I mean, the name of this website IS top law schools.

I'm being 100% serious when I call you a liar. You are lying right now.

I've asked maybe 20 people who have said this to link me to one thread that is evidence of this mentality that you say is so pervasive. Not one person has ever done so.

N
O
T

O
N
E

You are a liar or you don't read good or both. Provide support for what you're claiming.

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Thelaw23
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Thelaw23 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:11 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Thelaw23 wrote:I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, guys. I only started on this forum in 2016/2015 and the T14 or bust mentality is still very much here. Not everywhere but in many places.

In some ways it's not a bad thing. Heck, it forced me to retake my 165 bomb and get a much higher LSAT. I'm just wondering about the people who just can't make it to T14, this site must kill them lol.

I mean, the name of this website IS top law schools.

I'm being 100% serious when I call you a liar. You are lying right now.

I've asked maybe 20 people who have said this to link me to one thread that is evidence of this mentality that you say is so pervasive. Not one person has ever done so.

N
O
T

O
N
E

You are a liar or you don't read good or both. Provide support for what you're claiming.



Well, I was too lazy and didn't want to waste any time doing this, but since you are escalating it so much with your toxicity:

I randomly went on the first post I clicked, and read the first reply.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=274074&p=9787024#p9787024

First reply.

The OP didn't write that he wanted to go to big law. At all. And the first answer he got is "RETAKE OR DON'T GO"

Seriously. If you want to keep this up, maybe tomorrow or later on today when I get off work I will find more posts just like that one.

cavalier1138
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:21 pm

Thelaw23 wrote:Well, I was too lazy and didn't want to waste any time doing this, but since you are escalating it so much with your toxicity:

I randomly went on the first post I clicked, and read the first reply.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=274074&p=9787024#p9787024

First reply.

The OP didn't write that he wanted to go to big law. At all. And the first answer he got is "RETAKE OR DON'T GO"

Seriously. If you want to keep this up, maybe tomorrow or later on today when I get off work I will find more posts just like that one.


Funny. The first reply on that thread doesn't even use the term "T14". But it does say the following:
I'm not saying those schools aren't good choices (some may be less than optimal, as they don't turn out high-paying or high-profile jobs). But even a modest score increase would give you a world of opportunities for better schools, or much more money at your current selection.


Telling someone to retake a low score or not go to the schools that are options given their current score is not "T14 or bust" by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: Also, if you bother reading the rest of the thread, it turns out that the OP wants to do... wait for it... white collar defense in securities litigation, which is... BIGLAW! Ta-daaaaaa!
Last edited by cavalier1138 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:57 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thelaw23 wrote:Well, I was too lazy and didn't want to waste any time doing this, but since you are escalating it so much with your toxicity:

I randomly went on the first post I clicked, and read the first reply.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p9787024

First reply.

The OP didn't write that he wanted to go to big law. At all. And the first answer he got is "RETAKE OR DON'T GO"

Seriously. If you want to keep this up, maybe tomorrow or later on today when I get off work I will find more posts just like that one.


Funny. The first reply on that thread doesn't even use the term "T14". But it does say the following:
I'm not saying those schools aren't good choices (some may be less than optimal, as they don't turn out high-paying or high-profile jobs). But even a modest score increase would give you a world of opportunities for better schools, or much more money at your current selection.


Telling someone to retake a low score or not go to the schools that are options given their current score is not "T14 or bust" by any stretch of the imagination.

Not only is there no mention of the T14, the first post is trying to help the OP get into schools at a good price that the OP mentioned

Look bro bro the only thing toxic here is your LUST to spread RANCID LIES all up and down TLS

(In all seriousness dude if you're saying T14 or bust is a prevalent attitude on this site you've got to provide evidence of that. This isn't evidence of that in any way, shape, or form. What you provided is evidence of something else entirely. You're saying that's bad? Again, I'm not sure if you're comprehending what you're reading.)

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Do this many people really pay sticker price?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:58 pm

I also want to know how many people apply ED to places like Cooley or to other similarly ranked schools...




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