T-14 LRAP Overview

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Rigo
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Rigo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:54 am

katthegreat11 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:So the benefit of the LRAP programs at HYS is that they aren't reliant on PSLF funds (so no danger of being eliminated by fed govt), which means you don't need to do PI/govt work for the full 10 years/jump through all the hoops involved with those programs?


+CLS yea. Also I think all 4 don't kick you off at any income level. UVA if you ever earn more than 80k I think you no longer can be enrolled in the program


So if you work in PI and over the course of 10 years get raises up to $120k or whatever they don't kick you off? That's insanely amazing.

HYS+Columbia+NYU+Northwestern don't kick you off.

Npret
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:09 pm

Rigo wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:So the benefit of the LRAP programs at HYS is that they aren't reliant on PSLF funds (so no danger of being eliminated by fed govt), which means you don't need to do PI/govt work for the full 10 years/jump through all the hoops involved with those programs?


+CLS yea. Also I think all 4 don't kick you off at any income level. UVA if you ever earn more than 80k I think you no longer can be enrolled in the program


So if you work in PI and over the course of 10 years get raises up to $120k or whatever they don't kick you off? That's insanely amazing.

HYS+Columbia+NYU+Northwestern don't kick you off.

Check the calculations though to understand the coverage. Also check how your spouse's income is treated. Double check about jobs that are covered as well.

I don't think any of these programs help you if you are unemployed.

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Rigo
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Rigo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Yeah the details of each individual program are really important. Read up on each program, learn what they are talking about and the implications, and meet with financial aid people at the schools you are seriously considering before boarding the LRAP train.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:12 pm

Npret wrote:
Rigo wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:So the benefit of the LRAP programs at HYS is that they aren't reliant on PSLF funds (so no danger of being eliminated by fed govt), which means you don't need to do PI/govt work for the full 10 years/jump through all the hoops involved with those programs?


+CLS yea. Also I think all 4 don't kick you off at any income level. UVA if you ever earn more than 80k I think you no longer can be enrolled in the program


So if you work in PI and over the course of 10 years get raises up to $120k or whatever they don't kick you off? That's insanely amazing.

HYS+Columbia+NYU+Northwestern don't kick you off.

Check the calculations though to understand the coverage. Also check how your spouse's income is treated. Double check about jobs that are covered as well.

I don't think any of these programs help you if you are unemployed.


Yeah of course you'd do more research, just wondering if I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly. And yeah but are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS?

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S.Picquery
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby S.Picquery » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:18 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:Yeah of course you'd do more research, just wondering if I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly. And yeah but are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS?


If you include non-JD jobs, it's something like 1-2% max don't have jobs. As a friend there once put it to me, those are the kids who... need a break. (I'm pretty sure she was joking, FYI. I know sarcasm doesn't do well in text posts.)

Npret
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:21 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
Npret wrote:
Rigo wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:So the benefit of the LRAP programs at HYS is that they aren't reliant on PSLF funds (so no danger of being eliminated by fed govt), which means you don't need to do PI/govt work for the full 10 years/jump through all the hoops involved with those programs?


+CLS yea. Also I think all 4 don't kick you off at any income level. UVA if you ever earn more than 80k I think you no longer can be enrolled in the program


So if you work in PI and over the course of 10 years get raises up to $120k or whatever they don't kick you off? That's insanely amazing.

HYS+Columbia+NYU+Northwestern don't kick you off.

Check the calculations though to understand the coverage. Also check how your spouse's income is treated. Double check about jobs that are covered as well.

I don't think any of these programs help you if you are unemployed.


Yeah of course you'd do more research, just wondering if I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly. And yeah but are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS?

Possibly or possibly not in qualifying employment.
Or you could lose your job. PI can lose funding quickly as can government jobs. We do t know what will happen with the honors program for example.

I don't know how moving in or out of the program works.
I recall Northwestern requires employment at graduation, but I could be wrong. Not every PI job is going to hire you until you take and even pass the bar which is months after graduating.

Don't assume that you will be covered just because you got into a certain school.

katthegreat11
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:40 pm

S.Picquery wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:Yeah of course you'd do more research, just wondering if I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly. And yeah but are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS?


If you include non-JD jobs, it's something like 1-2% max don't have jobs. As a friend there once put it to me, those are the kids who... need a break. (I'm pretty sure she was joking, FYI. I know sarcasm doesn't do well in text posts.)


I don't think so based on the response haha. Think you're right, I've heard from SLS grads that the only people they knew that didn't have jobs were those interested in incredibly niche specific fields and unwilling to compromise.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:52 pm

Npret wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Npret wrote:
Rigo wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:So the benefit of the LRAP programs at HYS is that they aren't reliant on PSLF funds (so no danger of being eliminated by fed govt), which means you don't need to do PI/govt work for the full 10 years/jump through all the hoops involved with those programs?


+CLS yea. Also I think all 4 don't kick you off at any income level. UVA if you ever earn more than 80k I think you no longer can be enrolled in the program


So if you work in PI and over the course of 10 years get raises up to $120k or whatever they don't kick you off? That's insanely amazing.

HYS+Columbia+NYU+Northwestern don't kick you off.

Check the calculations though to understand the coverage. Also check how your spouse's income is treated. Double check about jobs that are covered as well.

I don't think any of these programs help you if you are unemployed.


Yeah of course you'd do more research, just wondering if I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly. And yeah but are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS?

Possibly or possibly not in qualifying employment.
Or you could lose your job. PI can lose funding quickly as can government jobs. We do t know what will happen with the honors program for example.

I don't know how moving in or out of the program works.
I recall Northwestern requires employment at graduation, but I could be wrong. Not every PI job is going to hire you until you take and even pass the bar which is months after graduating.

Don't assume that you will be covered just because you got into a certain school.


I think I'm missing what your point is? I feel like I'm agreeing with you; extensive research should be done on LRAP programs and the kinds of jobs that qualify for them, you should not assume you'll be taken care of after school, but some schools are safer bets than others.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:25 pm

I think I'm missing what your point is? I feel like I'm agreeing with you; extensive research should be done on LRAP programs and the kinds of jobs that qualify for them, you should not assume you'll be taken care of after school, but some schools are safer bets than others.[/quote]

My point was to the question of "are you going to be unemployed coming out of HYS" but more generally if you don't have a job, you won't be on LRAP. You will be making loan payments on your own, which should be mitigated by PAYE, but your debt won't be decreasing and the school isn't going to make payments. I don't know if you can go in and out of LRAP specific to schools.

Maybe this isn't a huge concern now as it was during the recession, but at least find out what happens if you don't have a job or lose your job.

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Rigo
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Rigo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:33 pm

H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:53 pm

Rigo wrote:H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.


That makes sense, thank you!

Npret
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:09 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
Rigo wrote:H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.


That makes sense, thank you!


Yale doesn't care what you do as it's strictly income based.

Harvard includes private sector "law related jobs" but you have to get approval.

Stanford includes private sector law related jobs but you have to have 50% income from pro bono or reduced fees.
None help you if your unemployed or volunteering for experience.
It's complicated as hell.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby brinicolec » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:11 pm

Has anyone spoken to any fin aid offices and asked them whether or not the school has a plan for if the federal gov't pulls out of loan forgiveness? I can't remember which school someone was talking about, but I saw a post yesterday that mentioned that the school would just revert to an old LRAP they had before the federal gov't was doing loan forgiveness if it were to fall through, which made me curious how many schools have a backup plan.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:16 pm

Npret wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Rigo wrote:H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.


That makes sense, thank you!


Yale doesn't care what you do as it's strictly income based.

Harvard includes private sector "law related jobs" but you have to get approval.

Stanford includes private sector law related jobs but you have to have 50% income from pro bono or reduced fees.
None help you if your unemployed or volunteering for experience.
It's complicated as hell.


Dude/lady you are not offering constructive comments. Everyone understands they don't help you if you're unemployed, and everyone understands that these are complicated programs that require more research than just asking people on TLS. We're just trying to have a discussion about it.

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Rigo
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Rigo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Npret wrote:Harvard includes private sector "law related jobs" but you have to get approval.

Though true, this is missing an important component of the program's versatility. LIPP (Harvard's LRAP) allows way more full-time jobs even if they aren't legal.

LIPP is available for Harvard Law School JD Program graduates who work in any full-time job for a government, public sector [501(c)(3)] or academic organization (nonprofit only) in the USA, or in an overseas equivalent. Jobs in the private sector can also qualify for LIPP, but must be law-related.


Since we're working with the (rather unlikely) hypo of a H grad not being able to get ANY legal job, LIPP would cover a non-legal government job as well. This flexibility is useful since some H grads I'm sure pursue a more policy-oriented than legal-oriented career.
But really, if all else fails, it seems a full-time entry level administrative assistant job in government would be enough to qualify.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:26 pm

katthegreat11 wrote:
Npret wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Rigo wrote:H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.


That makes sense, thank you!


Yale doesn't care what you do as it's strictly income based.

Harvard includes private sector "law related jobs" but you have to get approval.

Stanford includes private sector law related jobs but you have to have 50% income from pro bono or reduced fees.
None help you if your unemployed or volunteering for experience.
It's complicated as hell.


Dude/lady you are not offering constructive comments. Everyone understands they don't help you if you're unemployed, and everyone understands that these are complicated programs that require more research than just asking people on TLS. We're just trying to have a discussion about it.


Lol. Ok so you knew Yale covers every job and is solely income based. Great for you.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby katthegreat11 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:33 pm

Npret wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Npret wrote:
katthegreat11 wrote:
Rigo wrote:H&Y are the most accomodating in terms of types of jobs that qualify. They don't have to be strictly legal jobs there like at most schools.

HYS+Columbia(if on non-integrated) are pretty good generally because they actually pay down your debt so after 7 years if you want to leave and be a stay at home mom or write a book or run for office, your debt would be way less than when you started out in the program. At other schools you need to do the full 10 years for debt to be forgiven at all, I'm pretty sure. If you leave before, your debt is often higher than when you started out because of negative amortization.

But the point being that even if you didn't find a legal job at H&Y, you'd still probably qualify for the LRAP-type programs since they cover way more types of jobs.


That makes sense, thank you!


Yale doesn't care what you do as it's strictly income based.

Harvard includes private sector "law related jobs" but you have to get approval.

Stanford includes private sector law related jobs but you have to have 50% income from pro bono or reduced fees.
None help you if your unemployed or volunteering for experience.
It's complicated as hell.


Dude/lady you are not offering constructive comments. Everyone understands they don't help you if you're unemployed, and everyone understands that these are complicated programs that require more research than just asking people on TLS. We're just trying to have a discussion about it.


Lol. Ok so you knew Yale covers every job and is solely income based. Great for you.


What is your problem, why the sass? All I'm saying is that you tell us that LRAPs don't cover you if you're unemployed, and that all these programs are super super complicated, in every.single.comment. I appreciate you sharing the information about Yale, I did not know that, that is the kind of information I would like to learn from a post like this, not to get beaten over the head with the same information.

Npret
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Npret » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:07 pm

During the last DOJ hiring freeze caused by the recession, volunteers were hired as Special AUSAs. State and local governments were also using volunteers. There are plenty of PI jobs that don't pay but will hire volunteers for the experience.

Some people get fellowships so they have income but other people don't.

The point is that working as a volunteer isn't unheard of even for grads of top schools. Maybe if you can afford to work as a volunteer you don't need LRAP. But I thought it was worth pointing out.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:42 am

At Stanford and Yale, the student contribution of 60% over $80,000 is gross income, correct? But isn't the tax rate in a place like California going to be above 40% at that income level? So would you being netting zero money whatsoever?

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Nebby » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:19 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:At Stanford and Yale, the student contribution of 60% over $80,000 is gross income, correct? But isn't the tax rate in a place like California going to be above 40% at that income level? So would you being netting zero money whatsoever?

It is adjusted gross income (adjustments dependent on the specifics of each LRAP details). I don't quite know what your second question is asking. Can you elaborate?

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Veil of Ignorance » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Nebby wrote: It is adjusted gross income (adjustments dependent on the specifics of each LRAP details). I don't quite know what your second question is asking. Can you elaborate?


Well let's assume you've got 300k in loans and a 100k salary. According to Yale and Stanford's LRAP rules, you would be expected to pay 60% of the 20k you earned passed 80k, which would come to 12k. But you are also paying taxes on that 20k of income. And isn't 80k+ around a 40% tax bracket? So after taxes and Stanford and Yale's 60% rule, would someone making 100k actual take home more than someone making 80k?
Last edited by Veil of Ignorance on Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

grades??
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby grades?? » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:42 pm

Remember, its the T13 now. The title should be changed

Fiddlesticks
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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Fiddlesticks » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:43 pm

grades?? wrote:Remember, its the T13 now. The title should be changed


I agree. I'm confused what the current title is even referring to. Please change to T-13

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:51 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
Nebby wrote: It is adjusted gross income (adjustments dependent on the specifics of each LRAP details). I don't quite know what your second question is asking. Can you elaborate?


Well let's assume you've got 300k in loans and a 100k salary. According to Yale and Stanford's LRAP rules, you would be expected to pay 60% of the 20k you earned passed 80k, which would come to 12k. But you are also paying taxes on that 20k of income. And isn't 80k+ around a 40% tax bracket? So after taxes and Stanford and Yale's 60% rule, would someone making 100k actual take home more than someone making 80k? (Stanford and Yale are probably not going to happen for me, but you never know).


You're not paying 60% of 20k. You're paying 60% of your additional IBR/PAYE payments that are owed on that $20k.

Also, income tax is high, but I don't think that $80k puts you in the 40% bracket anywhere. Still, that's irrelevant here.

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Re: T-14 LRAP Overview

Postby Nebby » Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:41 pm

Veil of Ignorance wrote:
Nebby wrote: It is adjusted gross income (adjustments dependent on the specifics of each LRAP details). I don't quite know what your second question is asking. Can you elaborate?


Well let's assume you've got 300k in loans and a 100k salary. According to Yale and Stanford's LRAP rules, you would be expected to pay 60% of the 20k you earned passed 80k, which would come to 12k. But you are also paying taxes on that 20k of income. And isn't 80k+ around a 40% tax bracket? So after taxes and Stanford and Yale's 60% rule, would someone making 100k actual take home more than someone making 80k?

SLS' LRAP rules.

Assume you have 300k in debt. The average monthly repayment on $300k under a 10 year plan would be $3300/month or $39600/year. SLS LRAP repayments are based on a 10 year repayment schedule. Therefore, the annual benefits for this hypothetical student is $39600/year for 10 years. The benefit is not contingent upon whether the student remains in standard repayment or opts to go on PAYE. So the student can go on PAYE and will still get $39600/year, but that student can't pocket it and must still pay the $39600/year to their loans.

Now, lets assume 100k salary.
For graduates whose adjusted incomes will exceed $80,000, LRAP will provide a loan covering the need-based monthly payments for the year less a base contribution of $9,750 plus 60% of the income over $80,000.

So the calculation starts with $39600 - $9750 - (0.6 x 20k*) = $18,150/year ($1512.50/month) in LRAP benefits. Therefore, if you made 100k a year, LRAP would cover 45% (1512.50/3300) of the monthly standard repayment and you'd be responsible for 55% or $1815/month (3300 x 0.55)

*(100k-80k=20k)

This is all before your income is adjusted depending no SLS program.

In California, your take home pay on $100k would be $68,015/year (before any deductions/credits/adjustments).

For SLS, your adjusted gross income is whatever it was on the previous year's tax returns.

Federal tax brackets:
$37,450 - $90,750 25.00%
$90,750 - $189,300 28.00%

$40,773 - $51,530 8.00%
$51,530 - $263,222 9.30%

According to this calculator, the monthly payment under PAYE on an AGI of 100k is $684.83.

The best bet to maximize SLS benefits with 300k debt is to go under PAYE and cop PSLF forgiveness. They'll never pay a cent out of pocket until their income gets closer to $120k.

I'm not gonna do anymore of the work for you. Run the math and answer your own questions that can be answered with this data.




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